To answer your more general point; if they are not fundamentalists, presumably they will have to agree to live and let live in a secular, non-theocratic state.

Justamere, you have referred to legal marriage several times.

What difference, if any, is there in your mind between marriage as a legal contract and marriage as a religious covenant?

Not just a philosophical question.
George W. Bush did say that the counsel he took from the higher Father convinced him to take our nation to war.

I know that the "Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ" is true, because God Himself by His Holy Spirit has told me it is His word.
[/quote]

Excuse me for butting in here, just a sinner with insight to the other side. I claim no specialty other than, just being lucky enough to have the creator show that he knows I exist. This being said, I have a question...... It is this......

What does God's voice sound like? When I read the correct answer, I will know that YOU know. Till then, I am going to kick back with my sense of humor and a rotten streak a mile wide.

Wow... I could say so much about the LDS religion, but I won't.

I grew up in the LDS Church and spent 4 years of my youth in Seminary. Today I would be labeled an Apostate and promptly excommunicated.

I could really spill the beans on this thread.

I understand that Mormons believe the entire human race are actually the literal children of God (spiritually). Besides God the Father, do you also believe in a heavenly Mother[s]? Depending on your view of creation, do you believe the story of Adam and Eve is to be taken literally or figureatively? Was Adam a literal person? Do you believe he is a literal child of God and did God sire him both physically and spiritually or only spiritually with one of His wives?

Do you believe in the concept of Eternal Increase? What does this mean to you (from a LDS point of view)?

Ohhh dude,.... common, you can't do that to us. Fessup dammit! I need a good laugh.

Come on in, myoho. The water's fine.

Ya the water is fine.... it just looks like cool-aid and it tastes good

LOL

No way RandiLover and visionary. I just can't. Probably not very good Karma.

I gave up monotheism many, many moons ago in preference for science and the study of my own mind.

So you believe Joseph Smith was committing fornication when he was having sexual relations with women other than his legal wife Emma?

Here's why I think Joseph Smith had sex with his plural "wives":

1. The only two recorded Joseph Smith revelations on polygamy are commandments to have children.

2. Making babies with polygamous "wives" is the only reason "The Lord" gives for polygamy.

3. The Book of Mormon says the only reason the Lord would permit polygamy would be to have children.

4. Joseph Smith's own son tried to exonerate his father from the charge of having sex with his plural wives. After speaking to many of them personally, he accepted that most of the relationships were sexual.

5. Over a dozen faithful LDS women testified that their marriages to Joseph Smith included sex.

6. Close relatives of Smith's wives testified that he spent the night in the same bed with them.

7. Everyone Joseph Smith taught his law of Celestial Marriage to understood it meant having sex, and did so.

8. Other cult leaders (Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc..) claim to receive similar "revelations" to D&C 132 that justify them having sex with multiple women (and eventually teen girls).

In comparison, the First Vision story has little of the above evidence to support it. So why do Mormons believe the First Vision but refuse to accept the fact that Joseph Smith obeyed The Lord's "commandment" in D&C 132 and had sex with his wives?

Get the facts here: http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm

Mormonism has nothing to do with monotheism especially since Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and just about every other Mormon "prophet" taught the plurality of "gods".

I have heard a bunch of views on the subject. I believe I figured out why we are here, simply because its just the most logical explanation. Will we ever understand it all, not here. But I do know what it is like for just a brief moment, to be plugged into that other realm, and it all seems sooo simple. But ya get dropped back in here like a paratrooper behind the lines with enemy all around ya, and all that information just does not get brought back. I am just not willing to take someone at face value like I was when I was a child. Plural entities, yes, plural deities, it doesn't work.

It does right now...

Until....?

Even when Mormons reach their own state of "Godhood"... they will still be trapped in a guilded cage. To serve "another". Logically, there is no true liberation even in this state.

I already know the stories... no one needs remind me of them.

See this is my problem with the whole thing. These people think that they are going to be a deity, common man, wake up and smell the psychosis. The big lie told here is this.... there is no devil. The next one is.... we are all deities..... that is a good one. Check it out, heaven is just like this place but with one differance.......... use your imagination to figure out what it is..........lol.

Please don't take my last statement to be a antagonistic. It was not meant to be.

Cool argument!

I apologize for hijacking this thread. I did not mean to do so.

I will let this thread go and no longer post to it.

You all were having a wonderful conversation.

Ps. but I hope you bring this conversation back up in later threads from me RL.

Christian... I can't wait to see the answers to your questions. You are right on target

As a person who loves to be the buzzkiller, so they also have a guy who weighed 135 lbs., and he walked on water. Religion wouldn't be so strong without supernatural happenings. Whose going to sign up for Bob's Average Cult?

Mormons believe that the family (father, mother, sons, daughters) is the basic unit of society, and always has been since God gave Eve to Adam. Also, "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." Article of Faith 12 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1

So, whenever and wherever secular laws require certain things (e.g. marriage license) to be done to validate marriage, then we believe that those things need to be abided by in order for a marriage to be considered such and the couple excempt from adultery when they have sexual relations with each other. I think most churches see marriage as a religious rite entirely, but as citizens of countries, Latter-day Saints are encouraged to respect and abide by the laws of the land.

And I was hoping you would enlighten us with some past history, that is what we are here for, to make mistakes, to prove once and for all God was right in the first place.

As you probably know, God speaks to His children on earth in a lot of ways, many of them mentioned in the bible. Probably the most powerful is the witness of the Holy Ghost speaking Spirit to spirit. Sometimes that comes as a rushing in of intelligence/knowledge, accompanied by a feeling of joy or well-being. Sometimes it comes as an validation that you have done your homework, considered something important carefully, made a decision, and then sought God's validation by humbly and sincerely asking Him if your decision is the correct one for you and those affected by it at that time. If it is, you may feel a "burning in the bosom", a joyful feeling. If it is the wrong decision you may have a confusion of thought about the matter.

There are many ways in which God communicates to man. Sometimes that doesn't come if you are not ready to obey, to take action on the matter. And often it does not come at all if you are deliberately breaking His commandments.

Just some general thoughts on the matter, it's a spiritual experience. It's kind of like trying to describe the taste of salt to someone who has never before tasted it. It's just something you have to experience to KNOW. I believe that man is a dual creature, physical body and spirit body. God easily speaks to the spirit, but for an individual to bring that to physical awareness is a bit more difficult for those not accustomed to being in tune with His Spirit.

I don't know if this applies to you but there is a saying about the LDS Church: "You can leave the Church, but you can't leave the Church alone." Often apostates of the LDS Church become bitter enemies, once having enjoyed the Holy Ghost and fellowship with the Saints, then having abandoned their cherished beliefs and broken their covenants with God.

There is a way back through sincere repentance, but it's difficult.

You used the word "encouraged." But is legal marriage required in Mormon doctrine to render a Mormon marriage licit within the church?

Enlightenment is more difficult.
_/|\_

There is no LDS revelation about a Heavenly Mother, it is mere speculation.

Adam and Eve were the first human beings on this planet. The physical bodies of all human beings born on this earth are descended from those two.

The spirit body of Adam was created by Heavenly Father, the same as was yours and mine. I do not know how the physical body of Adam was created, the scriptures say that God made it from the dust of the earth. (Or something like that.)

The spirit children God created are His "eternal increase." Mormons believe that only those who make certain choices and take upon themselves certain covenants and ordinances and live faithful to them will be "exalted" to the highest 'mansion' of the highest (Celestial) kingdom, the place where God dwells. Such resurrected exalted beings after much additional preparation and training, in our belief, will be authorized to have "eternal increase". They will share everything God the Father has, similar to minor children living at home share what their parents have.

Of course. That's always the way to God's house. Forget the signs. Look for the steepest path.

Actually Mormons are quite certain that there is a devil. He was called "Lucifer" in the premortal existence, today he is known as "Satan". The one third of God's spirit children who rebelled and followed Lucifer in the premortal existence have been cast down to earth to provide opposition so humans can be tried and tested. Satan and his dark angels will never get a physical body, they failed their premortal "first estate". All of us who have or had or will get physical bodies accepted the Plan of Salvation in our premortal existence. We are now here on earth, with a veil of forgetting over our minds, being tested to see if we will freely of our own choice obey God's commandments and pass our vital "second estate". This earth life is a time to prepare to meet God...

Mormons believe that the spirit body that animates and integrates the physical body of each human being is literally the spirit creation of God the Father, made in His image and likeness.

I am about the same, and could spill some beans to. My family asked me to submit a letter of to remove my name from the church just to shut me up. It didn't work for them, but I will try to keep quiet here. I'm enjoying the dialog so far.

Yes it is, common law 'marriage' does not qualify. And of course it must be the legal marriage of a man and a woman as it was with Adam and Eve.

I'm not sure how Adam and Eve became legally married.

Going back on my word now...



True... however, they do indeed preach that there "is no Heavenly Father without the Heavenly Mother."



How old is the Universe and when was the Earth created. Litteral sense please.



See above



Ah... ah... ah..! Celestial is a term you may as well paint with a broad brush...

Mormon theology (mythology) states that there are three levels of Paradise, as follows:

Celestial: Those whom believe in the restoration of the "True Church of Jesus Christ on this Earth and have a full faith testimony that the Mormon Church is the one and only True church. (The glory in the brightness of the Sun). You will achieve "Godhood" of your own worlds but still serve under Him".

Telestial: Those whom believe in the restoratin of the " True Chrch of Jesus Christ on this Earth and have at one time in their lives "HAD" a testimony that the church is true. But will never attain Godhood. Although they are good, upstanding people with morals. (The glory of the brightness of the moon, less than brightness of the Sun, but greater than the brightness of the stars).

Terrestrial: Those whom believe in God, but have never had a Testimony that the "Mormon Church" is the one and only true Church. You will be servants. (The glory and brightness of the moon). If you get to this state, you are nothing more than a servant. But, you have a fairly peaceful life.

Then there is Hell... In which you will burn in agony for all time and eternity if you do not accept the Gospel according to Joseph Smith.



Yeah... right.

Still trapped in a Guilded Cage...

And let's not forget about the "Magic Underwear".

No thank you.

too late to edit.

The Terrestrial Kingdom provides the glories of the brightness of the Stars.

Literally... very low light.

Celestial = Brightness of the Sun
Telestial = Brightness of the Moon
Terrestrial = Brightness of the Stars

God did it.

Somehow I didn't think you'd be able to resist doing what you can to try to deceive others about the LDS Church and its beliefs and teachings.

You make some interesting comments, did you make them up yourself, or did you copy them from an anti-Mormon site? I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote, as would most active informed Latter-day Saints.

Wrong again.

oh

No, I did not copy the meanings.

Yes... I did go back on my word on this thread. But I know so much about it.

Mormonism is beautiful in its' own way. But I do not believe it as truth.

I think it is an incomplete path. There is no training of the mind. Only Faith.

Mormons are very resourceful and care DEEPLY about the poor and underpriviledged. They are the best coordinators of any Christian religion I have ever known of.

But they sure would not hesitate to throw you in a ditch if you are gay or lesbian!
That is the easy way out. Blind faith kills blindly.

During one of the Republican Presidential primary debates, the candidates were asked, "Do you believe every word of this book |Holy Bible|?"

Mitt Romney replied, "I believe the Bible is the word of God, absolutely."
When challenged by the moderator with, "Does that mean you believe every word?", Romney seemed to struggle over his response, saying,
"Uh, you know -- Yeah, I believe it's the word of God. The Bible is the word of God. I mean - I might interpret the word differently than you interpret the word, but I read the Bible and I believe the Bible is the word of God. I don't disagree with the Bible. I try to live by it."

If the Bible is the literal word of God, how do Mormons square the contradictions that are in the Bible?

I might add that, as you can see from the Youtube link to that segment of the debate above, Rudy Giuliani was very clear in saying that from his (non-Mormon) perspective, many parts of the Bible are to be taken as allegory, not literally. Romney seemed to be trying to avoid having to address the issue of fundamentalist/literalist reading of the Bible.

Plus... they are great builders.

Just look at thisTemple in Portland.



As beautiful and as expensive as it may be... does it bring you any closer to enlightenment?

Does it only bring to mind thoughts of God?

Thoughts of EVERY living being on this Earth?

Or, does it say in the Biblical sense that all the plants, trees, fish of the ocean, fowl of the air, animals on the ground are for your use and are to be used as meat. To do with as you please... because it is good because God said so?

Sacrifice and slaughter the most innocent among us, drenched in blood and thrown in to the firey pit because... "God likes the way it smells"?

Whoa, wait a minute. This structure is not beautiful, although it was probably expensive. It's total kitsch. It's about as architecturally significant as the castle at Disneyland. All that marble doesn't save it from being a piece of crap. Putting aside its purpose, which I will not comment on right now, the building itself is garbage. Okay, we can proceed.

I have to agree, they are great builders.

But then, so were the Egyptians and the Aztecs.

What does an expensive building have in common with your savior, Jesus Christ???

Jesus was a humanist as well as a spiritual guide. I simply do not recollect reading (in the Bible) that Jesus advocated such a building and other products of worldly wealth.

How many homeless could be housed and fed with the money spent on such an elaborate piece of idolatry???

They are great builders. Here is the link to the Temples they have built around the world.

http://www.lds.org/temples/geographical/0,...,1899-1,00.html

They are beautiful.

However, I would not equate the meanings and reasons for their Temples with Ancient rites.... but I would say that many of the rituals performed in them are quite lovely. The marriage galleries are quite ornate with mirrors reflecting upon mirrors reflecting Eternity.

Take that how you will.

But yes, they have some beautiful architecture.

Unless you have a Temple Recommend from your local Bishop... you will never see the interior of one of these edifices.

Isn't there a period of a few days or weeks after construction has been completed that the public is invited to visit?

Why is the LDS Church so stridently angry at their former members, accusing them of deception and invention about the church? I have seen it elsewhere. There seems to be no room for someone's belief changing, but rather, there seems to be an oppositional suspicion towards former LDS members. I have not seen this with other denominations. Why?

Yes, but I do not know what that period of time is. Once the Temple is built they have an "Open House".

Get ready for a thorough brain wash before you go in.

After the masses get their chance to see the place, it is closed to all but those who are considered "worthy", (walls repainted, carpets replaced, etc) then it is closed for ever after to visitors.

I don't know Cowboy... however, I have ALWAYS heard they are in cahoots with the Masons. I cannot verify this.

Myoho, there was a documentary on the Mormons on PBS, I think, last year. Did you happen to see it?
They showed rooms from what I believe were temples (or a temple), including a baptismal pool.

It would seem that a believer would come to the conclusion that the only way someone who has "seen the light" could subsequently change his mind would be under the influence of Satan or one of his minions. And surely Satan would want to try to break the church.