Mormons are insane, and the worst kind of apologists...must see ------> http://treytable.blogspot.com/2007/08/morm...ing-insane.html

So if my partner and i get married in Vancouver BC, which we will probably do one of these days, does that mean that God would be okay with our having sex in Canada but but he wouldn't be happy about it if we had sex in the US except for in CA and MA? Assuming of course that CA and MA recognized our Canadian marriage.

Hey, don't forget New York!

NPR

Oh yeah, that's right. Amend that to add New York.

Not Utah though.

All 13,000,000 of us?

I can't speak for God of course but as long as a man and woman are legally married somewhere I would think sexual relations between the two of them would probably be ok with Him.

No, there are probably quite a few who just go along with in order to keep peace in the family and not make waves.

What if a man and a man are legally married somewhere?

What a relief. (Wipes forehead.)

You have some very strange notions about the Latter-day Saints.

deleted

I'm sure I do, but in reading over this thread I don't think that I have as many strange notions about the Latter Day Saints as they have about themselves.

Adam and Eve were male and female. I think God had some very excellent reasons for making it so. Marriage between a man and a woman has been the basic family unit of American society for hundreds of years. It works!

Why should today be any different?

But I don't want to get off onto another topic entirely, just to address the religious aspect. Suffice it to say that it is my opinion that God will never sanction a marriage other than between a man and woman regardless of what secular judges and legislators have to say about the matter.

Marriage is a sacrament in many churches. There may be a legal "marriage" in the eyes of the laws of the land, but that is where it will likely remain. Though of course there will be some exceptions among some clergy and maybe some denominations. Sexual relations outside of marriage that is sanctioned by God, in my opinion, will always be a serious sin that will ultimately result in eternal consequences.

To us they are not strange. :-)

Which is absolutely fine with me. I know of no one who is interested in forcing churches to sanctify marriages that they don't approve of. What would be the point? And as for me, I don't want my marriage to take place anywhere near a church.

But some churches will and do sanctify same sex marriages. Would sanctification by the UCC, for example or maybe a liberal Anglican church count in the eyes of God or would it have to be a Mormon ceremony before He would view it as valid.

Well they wouldn't, would they??

Again, I can't speak for Him but I think God recognizes all legal marriages between a man and a woman as valid regardless of the country and century. What some secular judges and legislators are doing now to change this nation and do away with Judaeo Christian principles and values that have worked for hundreds of years is not likely to sway God, or to moot the eternal consequences of unrepented sin.

Everyone has choices to make, that's what we're here on earth for, to prepare to meet God.

That really doesn't answer the question regarding the LDS position on same sex marriages sanctified by other Christian denominations.

I thought I was quite clear on that. I can't begin to imagine a time when God would reveal to His Prophet that it's acceptable to Him for people of the same gender to marry. That flies in the face of everything I know about the sanctity of marriage and the eternal family unit. It will never happen...

justamere, you do realize that those of us outside the Mormon faith have trouble seeing how this kind of position is any different from what Mormons said about black people just a few years ago, don't you?

I already explained about the skin color situation, but I understand where you are going with this, not everyone will agree with LDS religious beliefs and practices. I am personally content that God speaks to a living Prophet in our time to guide and direct His Church in changing times, and that I have a place within His Church.

But marriage and family is the way God's children on earth come the closest to being as God is. He is the literal Father of our spirit bodies. Life, the universe and everything, as I see it, is just a family matter. I know from the emphasis God places on certain temple ordinances that it is extremely important to Him that husbands and wives (male and female) be sealed for eternity, and their children sealed to them. To tamper with marriage and family, in my opinion, must be grossly abominable to Him, more so perhaps than almost any other sin.

That's the way I see it. Everyone else of course is free to choose their own course and follow the fads and trends towards greater materialism and godlessness that are all around us in America today, or to turn to God for the answer to life's problems.

Here's a good place to begin the latter route: http://www.mormon.org

So you are a cyber-missionary.

I kind of like that title but I'm just a retired person who enjoys writing about his religious beliefs on the internet. Thanks for what I would consider to be a compliment.

Now, hold on just a minute, here.

If I can't trust Brigham Young, the Second Leader of the Church of LDS, to correctly represent the perspective and opinion of the Church of LDS when he says "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race?" what trust should I put in a fellow on cyberspace going by just a handle, justamere10, who claims to accurately represent the LDS Church? What if you're an apostate spreading false doctrine? Not meaning to insult, but how can I read your writing with any assumption of validity?

Would you consider the trend towards legal permissibility of divorce to be a betrayal of Christian principles and values? Is that a secular overthrow of Christian principles and values in the United States?

Oh, you're welcome.

Jesus never really mentioned gays I think, but it looks like he was all over the divorce thing and he obviously didn't like it. Sooo...

Wow, condescend much? Yes, that was a rhetorical question. I know it's hard for you to believe, but there are many many former Mormons who have left the LDS Church and have embraced orthodox Christianity and have found the joy and fulfillment in their life that was missing in the LDS church. Why is it that Mormons ALWAYS assume that if a person leaves the LDS church that it's because they have committed some grievous sin? Many have left because they have found the truth and the truth has set them free.

So the following quote from official LDS source is nothing more than idle speculation and not being taught in LDS meeting houses, ever?

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny." The Family: A Proclamation to the World. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html

Is this "Proclamation" merely "speculation"?
How can you have "eternal increase" with only a male but no females? Assuming, of course, you believe God is a male being.

So...now we're "cherry picking" to determine what Commandments are valid.

How about humanity???

Look at how many homeless can be housed and fed for the price of one of your beautiful temple. How do you justify that?

This is why religion in America is failing. People are waking up to the hypocrisy.

Because that's how a cult works, if it didn't do these things it wouldn't survive. Even more traditional religions have that cult like atmosphere and adherence running through them. How would any of it survive if no "rules" were ever enforced in some way? It wouldn't, that's the truth of it.

The thing about Mormon is, the "hook" is so outrageously phantasmagorical I can't imagine what kind of sap would fall for it. Then again I've met a few Mormons in my day and I can't say they were the sharpest tools in the shed.

I DO NOT represent the LDS Church, nor did I ever claim to. I speak only for myself. But I am confident that I can represent quite accurately the beliefs of many active informed mainstream Mormons. You are welcome to speak with Brother Brigham if you can reach him, I'm sure he knows a whole lot more about Mormons than I do. If you can't reach him, you are invited to ask me as a very poor second.

As you know, skin color is not an issue anymore since the 1978 revelation to the then-living Prophet, so why let it trouble you? Latter-day Saints are very secure in their beliefs, they loved their black brothers and sisters as much as anyone all through the days when blacks weren't even allowed in many other USA churches. Shall we move on?

The frequency of divorce is definetly a social problem in our society with all too many children growing up in single parent homes and not having the benefit of witnessing both male and female role models in their home.

But contrast that with the laws in some countries such as the Philippines where there is no divorce, only possible anullments after seven years of separation. That obviously creates many long-term social problems too.

Notta perfect world...

Are you suggesting because there is a high prevalence of divorce in our nation that Jesus therefore approves of "marriage" between people of the same gender?

I don't know about the "many many" part, but if you say you left the LDS Church for the "joy and fulfillment" of membership in an "orthodox" church then I guess there is at least one, and probably more former Saints who have done that. Isn't freedom of choice wonderful. I wish you much continued joy and fulfillment. You must be secure in your new beliefs if you are having so much joy in them, so I expect that you'd never even think of attacking those other beliefs that you once cherished but abandoned.

That is an interesting observation, I never noticed that before. But I'm certain that the Brethren were not intending to create new doctrine or to proclaim a revelation that there is a Heavenly Mother with that inspired proclamation about families.

I'm sure you will agree that God's name is tossed around irreverently just about everwhere in America nowadays. The mocking would surely be much more severe if it was revealed that God had a wife don't you think? I repeat that I know of no revelation that specifically proclaims as LDS doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven. It sure makes sense to me that there would be though...

The LDS Church is well known for taking a lead in charitable work. It is also well-known for keeping God's commandment to His Saints to build and operate temples.

Anyway, your screen name proclaims that you are a liberal. Isn't big government supposed to house and feed the poor? Why should the tithing of ordinary struggling church members take on that burden?

Wait! Just a minute here, justa... Do you mean to tell us that Mormon Bishops and stake presidents are Celibate too???? Who knew????? There's a p.r. campaign chomping at the bit to counter-balance all the FLDS media going down around town.

Have to admit though, you got me to pull out the Swedenborg (Swedish Mystic 1688-1742). An Adept. Found these passages which I feel are sure flavoring for the conversation at hand:

"As man is formed, so is he perfected in intelligence and wisdom, and becomes a man. No man is a man from his natural mind; from that he is rather a beast. He becomes a man through intelligence and wisdom from the Lord, and so far as he is intelligent and wise he is a beautiful man and an angel of heaven. But so far as he rejects, suffocates, and perverts the truths and goods of the Word... and... rejects intelligences and wisdom, so far he is a monster and not a man, because he is so far a devil"....

"God, in accordance with his laws, is able to remit sins to any man only so far as the man, in accordance with his laws, refrains from them. God is able to regenerate a man spiritually only so far as the man, in accordance with his laws regenerates himself naturally. God is in an unceasing endeavor to regenerate man, and thus save him. But this He is unable to accomplish except as man prepares himself as a receptacle, and thus levels the way and opens the door for God."

I think that if you are truly concerned about marriage and the sanctity thereof you might want to push for making divorce illegal or at least forbidding Mormons to take advantage it.

Who knows whether or not Jesus would have approved of same-sex marriage? He's not on record as having expressed an opinion. But he or his creators were pretty clear on divorce it seems like. Yet, Mormons get divorced every day. According to the link, which references a Utah State University site (it's a few years old, but I doubt that things have changed much) the marriage rate in Utah is slightly higher than the national average. So is the divorce rate. Even though Jesus was pretty unambiguous in his condemnation of splitting the sheets.

The temples are tax-exempt and I'm fairly certain that your savior , Jesus Christ would do this
Like I said...when the number of religious-funded missions outnumber the churches/temples because of religious organization's good works, I'll be less critical.
The members are struggling because your churches are taking at least 10% from them...and that's minimal tithing/pledge.

You're supposed to help the poor, give your brethren your best coat, etc.

You know Seeker, I wouldn't understimate the influence of Native American lands in the North East, certainly in the 19th century (and well into the 20th century, really). In Joseph Smith's time, Upstate NY must have been quite filled with disembodied Indians roaming the haunted wilderness of steep hills and grand forrests, filling the finger lakes full of whispering spirits who never do quite crossed over....

Another area that is becoming an active place of missionary work is "family tree" workshops in Black communities (and on the web). A way of identifyng family lines and "baptising post mortem"

First, I just want to apologize if I seem too harsh. The price of advocacy of a position or another is rigorous scrutiny. I certainly do not wish to seem contemptuous towards you in my probing of the underpinnings of LDS, nor to cause you more discomfort than that which comes from vigorous inquiry.

I see the racism of America manifested in the church, and am pleased that it has been addressed.

quote from justamere10:


Do you have a source for that commandment?

Also, do you consider missionary work a charity? Why should religious organizations such as LDS be tax-exempt to do missionary work abroad(non-US)???



Yes...but my signature line states my feeling about religion.

Let's be clear. Unlike the topic of same-sex marriage, which is not addressed in the Gospels, the clear, unambiguous, and authoritative teaching of Jesus Christ is that divorce is adultery. Are you telling me that the LDS/Mormon Church overlooks this clear teaching of Jesus Christ for the purpose of avoiding long-term social problems?

Almost all worthy adult members of the LDS Church male and female serve temporarily in volunteer callings. That includes bishops and stake presidents who usually serve about five years. There is no requirement of celibacy for adults holding any office or responsibity in the Church. Marriage of man and woman is considered highly desirable both for time, and if worthy, for all eternity.

You quote wise words from a wise man.

Actually the divorce rate of LDS temple marriages is far lower than that of the rest of the population. Here are a few extracts from a talk by a Church leader, given October, 2007:


Now, even as someone begins to understand a few facts about us and comes to know us more accurately by our faith and the importance of family, it was the Savior who said "by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20; emphasis added). A church, or any way of life, should be judged by the fruits or the results that it generates. Here are a few examples based on United States statistics. But these would be similar throughout the world among practicing Mormons (by which we mean those who attend church and the temple regularly):

• One of the fruits is a longer life. Studies show that practicing Mormons are healthier and therefore live longer than the national average. In 1833 the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith the Word of Wisdom, which is the way to live in order to enjoy a long and healthy life.
• Second, those who are married in and attend the temple regularly have a divorce rate far below the national and world average.
• Third, we achieve an educational level that is higher than the national average.
• Fourth, over 70,000 members volunteer at their own expense to serve for 18 to 24 months in humanitarian efforts, Church service assignments, and full-time missionary service throughout the world.
• And fifth, we place strong emphasis on self-reliance and a solid work ethic. We encourage active involvement in our communities and in providing service to others. The Church continues to donate substantial money, goods, and services to humanitarian causes around the globe, including untold hours of labor donated by members to assist in disaster cleanup and relief.

Thank-you Cowboy, that was a noble (and unexpected) post. :-)

Doesn't matter how low the divorce figures are, the Church still allows it in contradiction to what Christ expressly taught. How do they justify that?

Missionary work in the LDS Church is done by unpaid volunteers, as I explained earlier. Missionaries who have an income from investments or whatever while they are serving pay income taxes like everyone else does.

I'm glad to meet someone who apparently enjoys paying income tax. :-)

Cowboy is cool that way. To everyone.