With some exceptions (such as sexual or physical abuse, drug use, unfaithfulness, criminal acts, etc.) divorce is not desirable.

But divorce is common in our time.

It's true that the New Testament written some 2,000 years ago defines certain situations surrounding divorce as adulterous. The bible is also filled with instances where the Lord is displeased with something God's children on earth are doing or not doing but turns a blind eye to it because he understands that sometimes people are just not ready for higher laws (and higher blessings.)

For example, through Moses, God offered the Jews higher laws. But when Moses came down from the mountaintop meeting with God he had been up there so long that they'd built a golden calf and started worshiping it. Moses broke the tablets on which were written the higher laws and came back with the eye for an eye lower laws which were the only ones they were capable of living at the time.

In our time God apparently is turning a blind eye so to speak to divorce because He speaks to His living Prophet His desires for His children in our time, and otherwise worthy divorced members of the LDS Church are able to get temple recommends and work in the temples.

I'm pleased that you are concerned about the problem of divorce in our society and how it may affect the Latter-day Saints.

ya just dropped my wife to the floor. after she's done laughing her ass off i'll help her up

perhaps you should think about 1978 and the change of status that happened regarding blacks and the church

prior to 1978 the doctrine of the lds church, as well as the leaders of the church, made it clear that blacks would never receive equal status

I find it a bit diffiult to understand that Mormonism, which once actively believed in polygamy to people the angels, thinks of adultery as a grievous sin. Isn't multiple marriages at the same time adultery?

Forgive me for asking such an elementary question, but it boggles my mind that Mormons consider adultery a grievous sin, but then practiced and sanctioned polygamy..

Am I missing something here?

BTW, I lived with three very nice Mormons years ago, and really liked them. I just could not get behind some of the beliefs about men and angels. They really wanted me to convert, but my rational mind would not let me.

Spiritual experiences are sometimes difficult to correlate with consensus physical reality. We don't see angels in white clothing everyday so such a sight would be unfamiliar, for a while, until we got used to it. Learning to rely on 'intuition', 'gut', 'heart', or actual revelation from God speaking Spirit to spirit is difficult, for a while. Humans are dual creatures with physical and spirit bodies. So don't let you rational mind (just one part of your duality) prevent you from getting to know your Heavenly Father. He speaks to His children on earth, but He does it in His own way, and you have to listen carefully, for a while.

God tried the faithfulness of His Saints with His commandment to Joseph Smith in the early 1800's to begin the practice of polygamy "to raise up seed unto me." It was extremely difficult for Joseph and others to live that law, but they did it. Later, it was extremely difficult for them, because of the laws of the land, to abandon wives and children, but they did it.

The practice of polygamy was stopped more than a hundred years ago. Since then, Latter-day Saints who enter into polygamous relationships are excommunicated.

God has revealed that sexual sin is the second most serious sin, right after murder. Consider how sinful is the world we now live in because of a general failure of God's children on earth to keep the commandment not to commit fornication or adultery. As the scriptures record, such general wickedness among a people brings decline and destruction. We are here on earth to be tried and tested, to prepare to meet God.

he he he, tell her I'm sorry. I hope she managed a soft landing

Are you familiar with Todd Compton's book "In Sacred Loneliness, the plural wives of Joseph Smith"? I don't have the exact quote with me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I read that the LDS church in the 19th century, particularly Joseph Smith, did not consider marriages to be legitimate unless they were performed by someone with "authority" (oops, there's that word again). In other words, if two people were married by a civil authority and then converted to the LDS church, Joseph Smith could ask for your wife in plural marriage simply because he didn't consider the marriage to be "ordained of God" and therefore not recognized as "legal" in the Ecclesiastical sense. Remember, Mormons believe the apostacy was the loss of ALL AUTHORITY to act in the name of God. If the local minister doesn't have that "authority" to join together a man and a woman in "holy matrimony" then it makes sense that Joseph Smith would not recognize those marriages and would feel he had every right to ask for another man's wife to be his own.

Excellent point.

I wouldn't go so far as to insult their intelligence. There are many LDS members who have obtained higher education degrees beyond just a Bachelor's. Of course, having a Master's or Doctorate doesn't mean they are infallible by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, I think it makes them a bit more pompous and prideful. It's a shame really, pride is not something I look for in a religious leader. Humility, respect, patience and empathy are much better characteristics, imho.

no worries i was there with her

I am not familiar with that book. Joseph Smith lived in the early 1800's when a lot of things were quite different than they are now. He and his brother were murdered by a mob of 200 people when he was only 39 years old. He accomplished a lot in that brief lifetime.

So God's rules for living are situational rather than eternal? And he might give certain people a pass on having to follow them depending on how "ready" they are. And he periodically changes his mind when it comes to things like marriage and racial equality and other things which he had earlier indicated were set in stone?

I have a strong opinion here. Never set aside critical thinking, rational thought, or practical reasoning aside to obtain spirituality or to commune with God (or Gods, Budda what ever you ascribe to.)

To let anyone define how to have a spiritual experience or how to communion with god is to give them to much control over you in some form.

It is possible to live a spiritual life without institutional stricture.

The amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, or choice of partners, by a religious institution is cultist control. There are societal laws governing what is sexual crime; is it necessary allow a religion to exert control over or to define what is sin and/or crime?

Yes! It is not only possible, I think it is probably the only way to live a fully-realized spiritual life. Institutions are necessarily agents of control and oppression the and bigger and more complex they are, the more they need to control and oppress in order to sustain themselves.



Religions often can't even agree among themselves on what constitutes a sin or crime.

I kind of think the Ten Commandments are still "set in stone". That includes the one that goes something like "Thou shalt not commit adultery", which seems to be the remotest thing from the minds of most of today's movie and television screenplay writers and producers.

Not all of them, there's beginning to be a bit of a backlash:

http://www.audiencealliance.com

Mormons know that God still speaks to His Prophet on earth, as He did anciently. Conditions on earth change, God's children progress and God's children retrogress, according to their choices and their degree of obedience to His instructions. Every one of God's commandments has a spiritual component, even if it's just to try and test us to see how obedient we will be.

Keep in mind that God IS the standard of righteousness. EVERYTHING He says or does is OF GOD!

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and will eventually know all the consequences of your choices, some of them eternal.

But, with respect, your opinions expressed here seem to ignore the fact that there is a 'ghost in the machine', that man is a dual creature, physical body and spirit body. Those who want to know God will need to get in tune with the ways of the spirit, or be content to live by the limited 'arm of flesh', never getting to have a personal relationship with their Father in Heaven, or getting to know Jesus Christ who stands at the door and knocks. Choices to immoral behavior or other fleeting never satisfying pleasures, will never open that door...

Some people like to hurl that little word "cult" around as if it proves something about something; which it does not except perhaps establish evidence of intolerance and/or lack of understanding about the role of God and of religion and churches in our society and in human progress and well-being.

God has said that sexual relations outside of marriage is a serious sin. Sin IS the business of religion and churches. But the maximum sanction a church can impose on its members is to excommunicate them, to remove them from the rolls of the church. To me, that's better than having secular governments backed ultimately by physical force, involved.

In today's American society, most churches still condemn immoral behavior. The same cannot be said about much of secular government and the judicial system anymore, though that could change if god-fearing people would ever wake up and realize the harm that is being done to the next generations by today's teachings that anything goes, including adultery...

You're not making very much sense to me anymore. Earlier on, while i didn't agree with you there seemed to be some sort of logical consistency to what you were saying. No longer. So I think it's probably time for me to move on. Thank you for putting up with me. I really have learned a lot.

I enjoyed your input, it's regrettable that I'm apparently becoming illogical as time goes on. Take care.

ditto for me too

I get enough eternal damnation and prothelizing to at family funerals and weddings.

Thanks for spending a bit of time in this thread, perhaps it's time for me to move along as well. But I'll check back for a few days to see if everyone else is jumping ship, or if a few remain...

The question is still unanswered. Do you try to dissuade them, and if you can't, do you tell them they are going to hell? Are they thrown out of the house as well as Temple? If a young man has "committed fornication," and lies about it and goes on a mission, and then found out, is he excommunicated?

I find the phrase "Magic Mormon Underwear" that is used by non-Mormons rather unfortunate, but is the current garment akin to the "hairshirt" of old in that it is irritating to remind one to keep one's chastity? Do they come in colors, or are they available in "White Only?"

Could you briefly describe the "Nephytes" and "Lamanites?"

I think most loving LDS parents care enough about their children that they aren't going to throw them out of the house because they've had sexual relations with someone. And they are unlikely to tell them they are going to "hell". Our preferred method of child raising is to teach our children correct principles and let them govern themselves, though of course parental styles vary, nobody is a robot.

Only those who keep high moral standards and are otherwise worthy are allowed into the temples.

A missionary who has lied to go on a mission will not have the Holy Spirit to guide him/her in their responsibilities, and if "found out" they will be sent home.

No hairshirts, white only. :-) (I find it humorous how some people seem to be so fascinated with other people's underwear.)

You can read all about Nephites and Lamanites in The Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ online:

http://scriptures.lds.org

Or you can request a free Book of Mormon at:

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beli...-christ#d"]http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beli...-jesus-christ#d

Enjoy your read...

I would say Todd Compton is one of those "active and informed Mormons" you keep telling us to listen to (since everyone else supposedly "get's it wrong").


Anyways, the point I'm making is that if we are talking about adultery then wouldn't it be considered "sinful" for those women (who were legally married to other men) to then turn around and "marry" Joseph Smith?

Let me ask you a question. If I told you a lie and you found out about it, how likely would you be to believe anything I said thereafter?

If Joseph Smith told a lie, big or small (and imho he told some real whoppers) wouldn't it make sense that we should question the validity of anything he said thereafter? Please let's not have any double-standards here.

Actually, I was hoping for a quick thumbnail sketch from you. You did undertake this thread to answer questions, no? Nothing too elaborate, just a paragraph or two.

Mormons are not questioning "the validity" of the things Joseph Smith said or did and they don't think he told "lies" as you seem to think he did. Joseph Smith was a fallible human being, but he was also God's chosen Prophet of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

Fair enough. The Book of Mormon is part of the sacred record of a group of Jews, led by a prophet, who migrated from Jerusalem to the Americas about 600 B.C. after being warned by the Lord about the impending destruction of Jerusalem that did take place soon after.

That prophet's name was Lehi. One of his righteous sons was named Nephi (thus the "Nephites".) Another son, a rebellious one was named Laman (thus the "Lamanites.")

Over time until the end of the Book of Mormon record in 421 A.D. the Nephites and Lamanites were often (but not always) at war with each other. In the end, because the Nephites too had become totally wicked, the Lamanites destroyed them all.

The Savior appeared to many of the Nephites not long after His death and resurrection. The result was 200 years of peace until pride and materialism crept in and again there were two or more opposing camps. The Book of Mormon is written for OUR time. I see the same conditions brewing in America today as existed when the Nephites were wiped out. The only way back is the path of repentance and forsaking of sins, and a turning again to God.

Justamere-- I give you props for staying in this for so long, you are a determined person in my book, and honorable. Kudos to you friend. You will always have my respect, God Bless, Tap

Much appreciated Tap.

All 13M don't believe, many are simply scared to death to make their feelings known, others are coerced into believing, others don't want to be abandoned by their family, etc., etc., etc.

Absolutely insane, without question. Your supernatural delusions are by definition an mental illness. Get a grip on reality. No one in their right mind would dare bother to listen to this nonsense.

This horsecrap will go away, but not until after much more harm is done to our nation and to the world at large.

Sorry, but that is another mistake you've made. Having lived and worked in and around SLC, the only strange notions are those held by the Mormons. I mean really, this is the most ridiculous BS one can imagine. Again, go here to see what they are trying to claim as truth!!! ---> http://treytable.blogspot.com/2007/08/morm...ing-insane.html

So sayeth the strange!

Justamere, are you familiar with the story of early California pioneer Samuel Brannan and his relationships with both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? Are you aware that all but two of the Coloma Sawmill construction Crew hired by James Marshall in 1848 were Mormons? Did you know that the split between Young and Brannan was about the tithes the California Mormons had tithed to Brannan as head of the Mormons in California? Did you know that it was only after learning of both Smith's lynching and Brannan's rivalry that Young settled in Utah as California was supposed to be the New Zion?

Get a grip dude, you're talking about yourself it seems because you certainly aren't speaking for Mormons. The furthest thing from the truth would be that Latter-day Saints are "scared to death" or coerced in some way into their devotion to Jesus Christ and His teachings.

Or go here to discover THE TRUTH about Mormons: http://www.mormon.org and http://www.lds.org

No, I'm not familiar with those kinds of stories. But I am familiar with the one where Brigham Young having just come from the east stands on a mountain overlooking where Salt Lake City is today and says something like: "THIS is the place."

I have a question....

With all your temples, rituals, and so-called enlightenment through Joseph Smith(your prophet), do you really think this stuff makes you closer to Jesus Christ than other denominations?

Does your doctrine include this direct quote from Jesus?
"I’ll say it again—it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”- Matthew 19:24

Does LDS or the sects teach this...or is this ignored like the other main denominations?

"Closer to Jesus" I think is an individual matter. However, because Latter-day Saints are confirmed by proper Priesthood authority they do have the right, but only if they live worthy, to have the Holy Ghost as their constant companion and guide. I think anyone who does their very best to keep God's commandments and to live the Gospel as taught by Jesus Christ will become close to him. He stands at the door and knocks. It is up to each individual to open that door and let him enter.

A few weeks ago I stood on the outside of the wall of Old Jerusalem in Israel and looked at a place that might have been similar to what Jesus called "the eye of a needle". It was a gate into the city that was so small that the only way a camel could enter would be to have its load removed and then go in on it's knees. Possible, but time consuming, and difficult. Much easier to enter in at the strait gate...

Ha ha ha ha ha, ROFL, oh my, ho ha ha ha ha!!! What a bunch of BS! LOL!

Never did get an answer to the Elephant in the Living Room. There is no evidence whatsoever to even give a smidge of a belief that these places EVER existed.

Are there "metaphorical Mormons" who doubt the literality of the whole thing? I mean, plenty of stories in Genesis read well if you DON'T have the preconcieved idea that they are absolute literal truth.

Be careful, laughter is good for the soul too. :-)

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1


http://www.scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/11/1#1

Some people fail to understand that human beings are dual creatures with both physical (tangible) and spirit (intangible) bodies. We can gain knowledge using the physical senses, and we can gain knowledge by spiritual means such as prayer and meditation. Salt is a tangible substance, but the taste of salt is not something that one can describe to another in words, they must experience it for themselves. Spiritual people are more in tune with spiritual things, so their belief in spiritual things is often much stronger than those who don't know the spiritual part of their being. Those latter ones limit themselves to the things their physical senses allow them to become aware of. Often those people are the ones who scoff and demand tangible "proof" because they won't open themselves to the possibility that they too could attune themselves to the spirit within, and open up a whole new universe of learning.

Faith is a powerful principle.

The proof of the Book of Mormon is a spiritual one.

Do you have any proof of spirit bodies/souls besides the Bible, Mormon texts, etc.???

Scientific theories are usually laughed at by the religious world until proven. Religious faith deserves no better treatment until proven.

Word.

Joseph Smith apparently receive a the Book of Mormon on a series of gold tablets, given to him by an angel. They were written in "reformed Egyptian" He translated them with the use of seer stones, which were put into a hat which was then placed over the face. Seer stones were apparently common in the early 19th century.

Can you demonstrate the use of seer stones on Egyptian hieroglyphs? Surely the LDS church has passed on how to use them.

I think Joseph Smith was the L. Ron Hubbard of the early 19th Century.

I don't think I've ever laughed at a scientific theory, but maybe some people do, probably including other scientists. :-)

Do you not think that there is a spirit, a soul, a "ghost within the machine" that integrates and animates the physical body like a hand inside a glove, and departs at death?

My religious faith is PROVEN to me, proven by numerous personal spiritual experiences. The plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated were shown to 11 witnesses who testified to that. The testimony of any two of those witnesses in those times would have been sufficient to condemn a man to death in a court of law.

But I'm not going to be able to prove to you that God exists, you're just going to have to find that out for yourself, if not in this lifetime then in the next. But then if you don't think you have a spirit or soul that survives the disintegration of the physical body at death, I guess you won't buy into that either...

We all have choices to make. Sometimes I think we place needless limitations on ourselves so we don't become consciously aware of things that might upset our own comfortable idea of 'reality'. I cannot begin to comprehend how anyone can look at anything in nature and not conclude that there is intelligent design behind it. But some people apparently are capable of such a feat...

Latter-day Saints proclaim to all who will hear that God and Jesus Christ LIVE and that they are NOT incomprehensible to man. We are made in the same image and likeness, we are LITERALLY the spirit children of God the Father.

In the same stone box the plates were hidden was a device known as a "Urim and Thummim", which was familiar to the Jews of old. That device is used by "Seers", men with authority to use it, to translate ancient records. It is my understanding that the Urim and Thummim were given back to Moroni along with the plates after they had been translated by Joseph Smith, but I'm not certain of that.

Yes, seer stones apparently were common in the early 1800's New England states. Perhaps seer stones were placed in the bottom of hats for the same reason you might put a dim LCD into a dark place to read it better?

LDS Apostles are sustained as "prophets, seers, and revelators". I am not aware of any recent application of the "seer" function per se among the apostles. But we are expecting more of the Nephite records to become available in the future. Perhaps at such a time seer stones and/or Urim and Thummim might become dusted off and put into use again?

It's really not difficult for God to set things up for centuries into the future as we know time. Moroni buried the plates in a hill about 421 A.D. where God knew Joseph Smith would live nearby 1400 years later.

I think he was God's chosen Prophet of the prophesied dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

Then we agree

You speak of "reality", "soul", and "intelligent design" in the same paragraph. Do you see the irony here?

Would you pay for grocery items in your shopping cart that the cashier sees, but you don't? If that cashier was also a clergyman, would you start believing those items actually exist?

I guess once someone starts believing the religious lies, it becomes the truth.
This condition is known as mythomania.

The thing is...I would wager that most folks don't really believe in any god. We've been indoctrinated that a god exists and are taught the rituals of religion within our family/societal structure.