I'm glad you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. We're making some progress here. :-)

The Sword of Laban: Joseph Smith, Jr., and the Dissociated Mind
by William D. Morain, M.D. Washington, D.C., American Psychiatric Press, 1998,


deranged is more like it

how silly can the humans get...

sorry to interrupt, but sometimes when I read something on a site where I put my integrity in, I have to respond when I see ludicrous nonsense...

religion is a way to control people, there are no prophets

Items in grocery carts have nothing at all to do with religious beliefs and experiences.

You seem to have no comprehension at all about God. Those who know God know Him by His Spirit speaking to our spirit in answer to humble sincere prayer. That is MUCH more powerful than the learning of man from his/her physical senses can ever be.

For every "proof" that you accept from a scientist or group of scientists there are almost certain to be other scientists or groups of scientists who disagree. "Experts" in courts of law consistently disagree with each other as they each speak sincerely for or against the defendant.

That condition is known as arm of flesh learning.

I'm not a betting man but outside of the limited box you choose to place yourself inside, most people really believe in God. (Though many have different ideas of what He looks like when they pray to Him.)

I know that God lives and Jesus is the Christ. Anyone who will repent of their sins and humbly and sincerely seek Him in prayer will find Him. This life is a time to prepare to meet God. Families can be forever...

http://www.mormon.org

Those sincere seekers with open minds and hearts know differently. If you want to know the truth about the Mormons ask the Mormons, not their apostates and enemies. My own son is an MD psychiatrist and a faithful Latter-day Saint, as are probably thousands or even tens of thousands of other Mormons among the 13,000,000 of us. I'm not familiar with your book but in my opinion it's unfortunate that you choose to be deceived by putting your trust in invalid sources and ignoring the ones where you could get valid reliable information. http://www.lds.org

You see, I think only a simple minded person could believe the crap that any religious person believes, and the Mormons make it even harder to believe since most of what they believe is so absurd..

I wont change your mind, it took me many years of maturing and learning before I realized how silly the whole religion deal is, you may or may not ever be comfortable enough to handle it...

I admit when the chips are down, I pray to God to pull my ass out, but organized religion is garbage and I dont want to specify that one is worse than any other...if you feel comfortable in what you believe, fine, just dont you dare* ever say that god hates gays or thinks they are sinners or pass judgment, ever, even once, on another human being based on some religious bullshit...that is where I draw the line, peace to you!


*my point being how can you say you believe in jesus and then violate his command to you not to judge others

I can only speak for myself, but I periodically feel the spiritual presence of a mesh bag of avocados in my shopping basket even though it can't be seen or touched. I know in my heart that this recurring avocado experience is real, and the fact that I never point it out to the checker so that I can be charged for it is a continuing source of guilt for me.

I'm not sure of a polite way to ask this, but could you perhaps explain the significance of "magical undergarments" in Mormonism?

He he he....yep. Friggin' cults.

Go Randys! This nonsense can't be tolerated by rational, sane and reasonable people. It affects too many areas of our lives.

Also, what's the current position of the LDS church with regard to posthumous baptism of Jews and other non-Mormons?

Anybody who tries to posthumously baptize me is looking for trouble

Confession is good for the soul. Now repent and do what's right, take those avocados back to the store. :-)

I think we've already dealt with the fascinating subject of other people's underwear on this thread.

I guess you'd sooner that nobody cares about you after your death. I hope you enjoy every moment of this life, it passes swiftly and eternity beckons.

Hmm. Methinks this "Ask a Mormon" thread has devolved into a "Let a Mormon preach at you condescendingly" thread.

Sorry, that was probably a bit uncalled for. I try to respect other religions as much as possible.

Not at all, but if I wanted to get baptized I'd get baptized. I don't. And to lift a line from another thread, it would be the height of arrogance to make that decision for me when I'm dead, knowing that it was against my wishes when i was a alive.

I know that this life will pass quickly. That's why it's so important to me. And yes, eternity does beckon. An eternity of nothingness. Again, that's why we need to value what we have now.

he he he

I respect your beliefs but am saddened that anyone would think that the destiny of these noble creatures called "human beings" is to rot in a hole in the ground somewhere with no other purpose to their existence than to have experienced the pleasure that comes when the physical body's vital needs are addressed.

Latter-day Saints are alive with hope and the thought of eternal life because they know where they came from, why they are here on this earth, and where their conscious awareness is going after the death of the physical body.

Don't you fear death with such a belief as yours? Do the material things you "value" so much get more valuable, or less valuable as you get older and closer to your eventual death?

Well I'm not exactly looking forward to death and I'm not out tempting it, but I don't particularly fear it. What's to fear? I only hope that when my time comes its peaceful, but if it isn't it isn't.

What makes you think that I value things? I don't think I value things more than most other people.
Things can be nice, things can be useful, but they aren't what life is about and I don't like clutter anyway so I try to keep them to a minimum

So, can I just clarify then - is the Mormon Church still actively baptizing dead people, including non-Mormons?

I've got to hand it to you justamere10...you've handled yourself very well in this thread. Many people (like me) are raking you through the coals and yet you are keeping your cool. I don't buy any of the religious BS, but my hat is off to you! You seem to actually believe.

Coming from you that's quite a compliment. :-) I accept it, thank-you very much.

Yes, I understand that there would be nothing to fear but the possible pain part of the dying if you believe that at your death there is no further awareness. A bit of a consolation I guess. Assuming you are correct of course, and I know you're not. :-)

Mormonism (Theism) is a fornication of the mind. It is a false hope... a mind fear.

writen by: Myoho

No can't know that at all. You simply choose to believe it.

One of the problems of atheism is that if you live your life ignoring God and His ways, then die and find out that wasn't a smart thing to do, IT'S TOO LATE! You've blown it for eternity by your free choices in this brief period of mortal testing.

When you sleep each night is it a lights out experience similar to what you've been taught within your circle that death is? Those who remember dreams and in their awakening moments know that it is not so. Even though the physical body is not with conscious awareness using it's senses during sleep, there's a whole lot going on at other levels, some of it perhaps spiritual. Man is a dual being, physical body and spirit body. Denying the spirit doesn't make it go away, at least not until death anyway. Can you touch or taste or hear or smell or feel your thoughts? How could you possibly know with certainty that your thoughts will end with your death? You cannot prove that.

Right living Christians are covering their inevitable death by praying to God often (and getting responses often) and doing their best to live by His commandments. If when they die there is no further awareness as you seem to think, then no problem, they've lived a good caring life and felt much joy as a result of their choices. If they're right, as they know they are from spiritual experiences, they've got a pretty good handle on what's going to happen at their inevitable judgment day.

Mortal life is a brief earthly experience of trial and testing in which we excercise the gift of freedom to choose. We are later judged by those choices, and assigned accordingly for eternity. Here we gain a physical body that will eventually, because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, be resurrected, our spirit and physical bodies permanently melded so that we 'grow up' and become more like God the Heavenly Parent of our spirit bodies. We are here to learn opposites, to be able to differentiate between light and darkness, health and sickness, pleasure and pain, etc. which we could not comprehend or consciously choose from among without knowing the opposite.

I know that God lives and Jesus is the Christ. I know that families can be forever if we enter in at the strait gate and make choices commensurate with the great potential within each of us to become more and more like God is. Life, the universe and everything to me, is just a FAMILY matter. There are a huge number of witnesses that Jesus Christ is ALIVE today, a glorified exalted resurrected being. Because of what He did for us during His brief mortal life, the grave has lost its victory.

Believe it or not, it's YOUR choice, and your consequences...

Yes, CAN know. You simply choose to believe that you're stuck inside a little box within which you can only discover things by your physical senses. Zillions of other people during their brief lifetimes have not only peeked outside the box, they've explored the universe that awaits there. God stands at the door and knocks. Most of us hear that knock and open the lid of our little box to let him into our lives. It's a wonderful experience getting to know God and the dual nature of our being.

Somehow I keep learning wonderful and sometimes harsh spiritual lessons and the universe never fails to humble and delight me. I just don't think that there exists a Sky Troll who is behind it all.

Maybe I misread you, but you seemed to imply in one of your posts above that the only joys atheists can experience are "pleasures of the flesh" as they say (I love that phrase) and whatever happiness they can get from material stuff. Actually, I think most of us go a little beyond that. Our experience just doesn't include imaginary friends. For me the fact that we will in time cease to exist as discreet sentient personalities adds to rather than detracts from our experience here.

"The bell of Gion Temple tolls into every man's heart to warn him that all is vanity and evanescence" This vanity would include, I think, the belief that we are somehow privileged to cheat death.

There is a difference between imagination, meaning pondering something in your mind that may or may not physically exist, and knowing something by senses other than the physical. I don't have "imaginary" friends. Jesus Christ actually lived and died. It is well known to many that he was the first person on this earth to be resurrected. He lives today, there is nothing imaginary about that. If he came and stood behind me, without turning around to look I would know not only that someone was there, I'd know who it was. That discerning does not come from a physical sense, it comes from knowing things by the spirit. He has also on many occasions appeared to the physical eyes of people, soon after and long after his resurrection.

It is the belief of Latter-day Saints that EVERYONE who was ever born, lives now, or will ever be born to this earth will eventually be resurrected, it is a free gift from our Savior Jesus Christ. Prior to coming to this world, in a premortal existence, you freely chose to accept God's Plan of Salvation. That plan included resurrection.

Those who did not accept Heavenly Father's plan followed Lucifer and were cast out of Heaven to this earth where they provide much of the essential opposition that we need to experience in order to make choices. They will never get a physical body and therefore will never be resurrected.

So, you're already a step ahead of the Adversary (Satan and his dark angels) because of choices you made in your premortal spirit life but have now forgotten, for a good purpose. This life is our "second estate". The choices we make here will have just as serious consequences as those we made in our premortal life.

You did the right thing before you were born of earthly parents. Now go out and do the right thing here. :-)

Please explain what you mean by: "a little beyond that".

What I mean by “a little beyond that” is that our (really meaning “my” since I can’t speak for others), experience of life is not solely or even primarily based what I get from physical pleasure and material possessions.

The problem I have with what you are telling me is that I don’t believe that any of it is true. I know that you believe it is, but I don’t. I don’t believe in the reality of what you are telling me any more than either one of us believes in the reality of Zeus, Poseidon, or any of the Olympian pantheon. That’s not to say it’s not interesting or culturally significant. It’s just not real imo.

Regarding Jesus, it’s my feeling that he is mainly, maybe entirely, fictional at least as he is portrayed in the Bible. I’d be happy to revise my thinking on that if new contemporary or archeological evidence supporting his existence were to come to light. What would not change is my belief that he was not in any way divine nor did he have any special relationship with a supreme being who does not exist.

I guess that’s kind of it in a nutshell.

Thanks for explaining. I hope some day that you too will take the time to humbly kneel and sincerely ask God to let you know that He's really there, and that He loves you...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933/

No, L. Ron Hubbard was the Joseph Smith of the 20th century.

Then I would recommend you read a good biography of Samuel Brannan to fill in those gaps in your knowledge of your church's early history. Brannan was a MAJOR figure in the early LDS church, early California history and was a close personal friend of Joseph Smith. It was Smith who appointed Brannan as head of the Mormon Community in California and directed him to lead a shipload of Mormon settlers and charter a packet sailing ship to come to California by sea 'Round the Horn to meet the Mormon Battalion coming west with Stephen Watts Kearney's Army of the West in 1847/8. It was some of the members of the Mormon Battalion that were hired by James Marshall to build the sawmill at Coloma where gold was discovered. So you might say that the Mormon Church was in on the ground floor of the California Gold Rush and the Mormon Tabernacle is gilded with California gold.

That's a rather condescending attitude, isn't it?

My understanding is that quite a large number of male Latter-day Saints volunteered to serve with the U.S. Army during a war with Mexico. They were known as the "Mormon Battalion" as you state. I think they ended up in San Diego without having fired a shot, as prophesied prior to their departure. It is also my understanding that the Saints were discouraged by Church leaders from going to California to look for gold. I don't recall for sure but I think Brannan was a maverick who was not obedient to LDS leaders. I seem to recall that he lost all he had and died destitute, possibly excommunicated? But anyway, it's old history that has nothing to do with LDS religious beliefs and practices, I'm not interested in that.

I don't believe there is any gold in the Salt Lake Tabernacle unless someone inside happens to be wearing a wedding ring. :-)

Just concerned about a fellow human being and doing my best in my own way to try to teach principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as I know it. But judge me as you will, that's your choice.

I think it's the often but not always unconscious condescension that people who sincerely believe that they possess the one way exhibit toward people they sincerely believe are still living in darkness.

do you have any idea how absurd it is to not only have your belief, but to be so ridiculous about it that you criticize those who dont share in your fairy tale beliefs?

can you point to one single instance of evidence of life after death? billions of people living for thousands and thousands of years, is there a single piece of evidence? one?

you see, in science we would say that someone who believes what you believe is merely believing in fairy tales...

now my personal beliefs or lack thereof arent relevant here, i would never be so ridiculous as to think anyone else should share them, make sense?

God has had almost 24 years to let me know that he's really here and that he loves me but he hasn't bothered to call once. Not even a tm. I think it's up to the Creator of the Universe to make the first move in person rather than relying on messengers and surrogates or expecting me to contact him about it especially since he's the one who's interested. That's so high school.

Condescension is in the eye of the beholder. Do you think every teacher and professor is condescending because they know more than their students do about a subject the students are interested in learning about, and they teach about that? I guess you could say every speaker or writer is condescending. But the choice to judge me however you will, of course is up to you.

Oh Randys, welcome to Mormonism 101.
This is Mormonism.
I am an exmormon. These statements are the norm. This is the kind of statement I hear from my relatives anytime I am in their presence. They know – and you don’t, they have understanding – you don’t. You are invited to join and believe, but only on their terms and those beliefs are not to be examined or subjected to any scientific or logical standard not in their control. I grew up in the church and its teachings are ingrained in my brain. My family is hard core mormon and I was brought up as a hard core mormon.

I was taught the church history and my family’s history in the church from an early age. I’ve read and studied the book of mormon, doctrine and covenants, pearl of great price, ensign, the friend and many other books and publications. As a faithful mormon I was taught not to read or examine any anti mormon doctrine or any historical account that was not approved by the General Authorities. I’m not trying to establish any credentials as a mormon expert, but Mormonism is ingrained in who I am. I have plenty of experience with the answers given here in this forum.

Personal belief in Mormonism is personal testimony based. It is not based on facts, logic or anything proven by scientific or logical measures.
(heh, what religion is?)
Mormonism uses facts, when facts are useful. Disagreement with religious concepts and church doctrine or history, are met with condescension, condemnation, and dismissal. You can find members who will do so with vitriol and venom, but the norm is to be polite, patient and friendly. If you were ask a question that would require a fact or solid information based in provable evidence that a mormon cannot provide – expect them to answer with their personal testimony.
If you disagree, they will often call you to soften your heart and they will pray that some day you will accept. If you break with their beliefs, you will be called to repent. Mormons believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the only true church on the face of the planet. All other religions and beliefs are considered wrong. Consider that in the way questions are answered here in this forum

And who the heck are you or any other LDS to decide what is in the best interests my MY immortal soul, or the souls of my ancestors?

You speak of "we" so I assume that you are a scientist in some field then. If so, you probably know quite a bit about the field, and probably a whole lot less about others. There are probably tens or hundreds of thousands of Latter-day Saints who are also scientists, does your "we" include them also?

There is a huge body of evidence about life after death, some of it physical. I already mentioned that a whole lot of people have seen the resurrected Jesus Christ with their physical eyes, and some have seen other resurrected beings as well.

But you do seem to have a whole lot of faith in the validity of your materialist notions. Some people would think they are "fairy tale beliefs," a materialist religion perhaps.

If you are a scientist I am sure that you must be aware that everything known to science one day is subject to change by new announced discoveries the next day. I recently heard an LDS scientist who is a neighbor of mine mention that the theory of continental drift was ridiculed by many scientists only a few years ago. Now it is accepted because proponents learned that you had to dig down into the earth a long ways before you'd find patterns in each continent that fit into each other. Those who ridiculed had been LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACE for their evidence!

In my opinion "arm of flesh" scientific learning is a good way to learn how to build physical things like cars etc.. But it's an extremely poor way to learn about God. There are better places and more reliable ways to look for Him...

i remember when I had my born again experience in 1983, for months i went around explaining to everyone including my mom that i had the one answer and didnt they understand that they had to also have it

my incredibly bright and well read mother tried to tell me what she always told me, "just because you believe it is so, doenst make it so"

i couldnt understand why everyone didnt want my religion rammed down their throats

Perhaps God has been calling all those years, but you haven't been listening. Maybe you're so into "high school" that you have closed your mind entirely to even the possibility that there might be much more available in schools of higher learning.

There are probably a whole lot of radio and television signals bouncing around inside your room right now. But unless you tune a receiver to the specific frequency of one of them, you'll never even know they exist.

I am here right now telling you that God does exist, I know that. But if you want to know for yourself, you're going to have to tune in to His frequency. That is done by humble and sincere prayer followed by intense listening within.

But I'm sure He loves you. And that he'll probably continue trying to reach you, in His own way...

"Behold I stand at the door and knock."

prove it