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justamere10
QUOTE (JRunRun @ Aug 16 2008, 09:23 PM) *
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My challenge to you is to read the book I suggested. I had it; however, I gave it to a friend so I am unable to give the scriptural and historical inaccuracies. I'm not saying give up in your belief in a higher power. I'm saying that you have to understand that individuals have all ran to one book and tried to add on to it. My beliefs have changed, but I still believe in Christianity until I am proven wrong. (Too many things that science cannot account for.)

I concur, there are "too many things that science cannot account for."
justamere10
QUOTE (JRunRun @ Aug 16 2008, 09:33 PM) *
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Sounds like a plan. I'll read that book and you read the book I suggested. It references the bible so you don't have to worry about the intent of the sources Rhodes uses.

Apparently there are about 33,000 Christian churches, each with varying interpretations of this or that in the Bible, so I do think I'd have something to worry about. :-)

Thanks for contributing to this thread, it's always nice to see some fresh/er faces.
JRunRun
Don't forget how Jesus was tempted when he was in the wilderness. Satan used scriptures from the old testament to tempt him. (Matthew 4) The key is to know that the bible shows historically that its own words are manipulated to lead people the wrong way. Which is one of the reasons for so many interpretations. (also because people think socratically and challenge the norm in a search for truth.)
justamere10
QUOTE (JRunRun @ Aug 16 2008, 09:39 PM) *
Don't forget how Jesus was tempted when he was in the wilderness. Satan used scriptures in from the old testament to tempt him. (Matthew 4) The key is to know that the bible shows historically that its own words are manipulated to lead people the wrong way. Which is one of the reasons for so many interpretations. (also because people think socratically and challenge the norm in a search for truth.)

Yes, the Adversary likes to mingle a few lies in with scripture. That method frequently works quite well to lead people astray and cause wondrous contentions. All the more reason why people really need to be in tune with the same Spirit that motivated the prophets who wrote those books of scripture. One who is in tune can often learn more between the lines as Spirit speaks to spirit than by studying the scriptures with the intellect and reasoning powers, though one can benefit from both.

As a Latter-day Saint I am very grateful that God still speaks to His children on earth and that there is a living Prophet and Apostles to lead and guide His Church, as there were anciently.
JRunRun
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 08:37 PM) *
Apparently there are about 33,000 Christian churches, each with varying interpretations of this or that in the Bible, so I do think I'd have something to worry about. :-)

Thanks for contributing to this thread, it's always nice to see some fresh/er faces.



Yeah... this is why I choose not to associate with any denomination. Too much tradition involved. I guess I'm more along the lines of apologetics at the moment though.
JRunRun
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 08:48 PM) *
Yes, the Adversary likes to mingle a few lies in with scripture. That method frequently works quite well to lead people astray and cause wondrous contentions. All the more reason why people really need to be in tune with the same Spirit that motivated the prophets who wrote those books of scripture. One who is in tune can often learn more between the lines as Spirit speaks to spirit than by studying the scriptures with the intellect and reasoning powers, though one can benefit from both.

As a Latter-day Saint I am very grateful that God still speaks to His children on earth and that there is a living Prophet and Apostles to lead and guide His Church, as there were anciently.



Just don't negate the scriptures for the belief that you're being divinely spoken to is all I'm saying. G.W. Bush made the same claims to assure the religious that he thought he was making the right decisions. I don't doubt that Bush thought he was being spoken to. The Adversary speaks too. Everyone has voices tempting them to do and believe this or that. You have to do the research to find out if its inline with the scriptures, by referencing more than one scripture. (2 Corinthians 13:1) (Deuteronomy 17:6) If you can't find more than one scripture to back you up... you might be interpreting incorrectly.

Edited for grammar
justamere10
QUOTE (JRunRun @ Aug 16 2008, 09:51 PM) *
Yeah... this is why I choose not to associate with any denomination. Too much tradition involved. I guess I'm more along the lines of apologetics at the moment though.

What a refreshing change to communicate with someone who isn't all out in attack mode as seems to have been happening the last few days. I understand your concern about traditonal organized religion, I'd probably be where you are if I hadn't run into the church I'm affiliated with now.

I'm not an apologist, I'm not a scholar, and I'm not a historian, just a person with a particularly strong testimony about certain religious truths. But if you are interested in apologetic level information about the Latter-day Saints there's a good unofficial source at http://www.fairlds.org They cover pretty much every argument that has ever been raised against the Saints. The criticism is all pretty much the same old same old that some self-styled anti-LDS word warrior just discovered and mindlessly fires away with without first checking to see if it has been refuted already.

I wish you the very best with your search, you present as a sincere truth seeker.

Enjoy the weekend RunRun.
justamere10
QUOTE (JRunRun @ Aug 16 2008, 09:58 PM) *
Just don't negate the scriptures for the belief that you're being divinely spoken to is all I'm saying. G.W. Bush made the same claims to assure the religious that he thought he was making the right decisions. I don't doubt that Bush thought he was being spoken to. The Adversary speaks too. Everyone has voices tempting them to do and believe this or that. You have to do the research to find out if its inline with the scriptures, by referencing more than one scripture. (2 Corinthians 13:1) (Deuteronomy 17:6) If you can't find more than one scripture to back you up... you might be interpreting incorrectly.
Edited for grammar

I fully understand your concerns and thank-you for your counsel.

Trying to explain to someone about having the Holy Ghost as your constant companion and guide is like trying to explain to someone who has not yet tasted it what salt tastes like, you just have to experience it for yourself. But I'm aware that what I just wrote is not intellectually satisfying.

Personally I am extremely comfortable with every one of my religious beliefs. Making that statement is probably the very best I am capable of doing and perhaps of more value if heeded than getting into some philosophical brain entertaining discussion, as seems to be the norm.
JRunRun
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 09:19 PM) *
I fully understand your concerns and thank-you for your counsel.

Trying to explain to someone about having the Holy Ghost as your constant companion and guide is like trying to explain to someone who has not yet tasted it what salt tastes like, you just have to experience it for yourself. But I'm aware that what I just wrote is not intellectually satisfying.

Personally I am extremely comfortable with every one of my religious beliefs. Making that statement is probably the very best I am capable of doing and perhaps of more value if heeded than getting into some philosophical brain entertaining discussion, as seems to be the norm.


Thanks. I enjoy talking about anything reasonably. Philosophy and science are not anti-religion.
RoyPDX
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 08:16 PM) *
Yes, a Mormon source about a Mormon event; logically much more likely to be accurate than Wicki where anyone with any opinions or axes to grind can and do contribute to the information. But of course if you buy into conspiracy theories that only enemies of the people actually involved in something are qualified to speak the truth about what happened, I guess you'd logically refrain from finding out what the principles have to say about a matter because that might contradict your preconceived one-sided notions.

I wrote the above as a generalization and not about the Mountain Meadows matter in particular. Very well qualified scholars have researched Mountain Meadows for many decades. They are vastly better qualified to speak on a historical event than is anyone writing on this board I'm sure. That's why I provided a link to a recent publication that reports on the work of several historians researching for several years.


I hope your not trying to say it was a "Mormon Event" to the victims.
justamere10
There is a comprehensive FAIR Wicki report on Mountain Meadows at the following link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
justamere10
QUOTE (JRunRun @ Aug 16 2008, 10:31 PM) *
Thanks. I enjoy talking about anything reasonably. Philosophy and science are not anti-religion.

It is said that scientists, philosophers, and theologians are all converging upon the same mountain peak, they're just approaching it from different sides and using different tools. God of course looks down upon it all, and can and does tell those who have learned to validly and reliably communicate with Him what's up there on the peak, and what's about to take place along the sides others are climbing with empirical tools in hand and brain.

It is my belief that each human being is a dual creature, a physical body animated and integrated by a spirit body (the ghost in the machine) that abides within. When the spirit permanently departs, the myriad living parts of the physical begin to disintegrate and animation is lost. But the spirit body retains a memory of life's events and learning and lives on awaiting eventual resurrection, the melding forever of the spirit and physical bodies never again to be separated.

It is good to learn and gain understanding of unfamiliar things by using ALL of the tools and means available to seeking human beings. Strangely to the intellect, the most efficient tool of all is humble and sincere prayer while keeping as best one can all of the commandments of God one is aware of. God then speaks to you personally via the Holy Ghost, with an inrush of knowledge and intelligence accompanied by a feeling of joy and communion with Him, a sense of being reminded of things one already knew, a sense of coming HOME...

That has been my personal experience. Sometimes it's arm of flesh study that motivates one to do the right things to get in touch with God. I think of it like tuning a radio to the station you get the most out of. You yourself need to turn the knurled knob in the right direction, at the right speed, and pause at the right place to receive the knowledge that already invisibly surrounds you, as do radio and television waves. You need to listen closely to that channel to understand what's playing on it, sort of like trying to hear a still small voice in a room full of people loudly discussing with each other the things that are popular and fashionable today.

It's not an easy process to learn directly from God. It takes a whole lot of discipline to keep His commandments and sincerely devote enough time to find Him for oneself. Not easy, but worth it!
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 08:16 PM) *
Yes, a Mormon source about a Mormon event ...


Notice that justamere10 is asking us to effectively take a criminal's word about the full truth as to exactly what happened in the commission of his crime.

You don't believe in an independent court system, justamere10?

Why in the world would it be logical to trust the veracity of the very person or organization who committed a particular atrocity, an entity with such and enormously huge conflict of interest, to tell the whole truth about it?

Would you therefore recommend we trust the Unibomber for the truth about what the criminal event he was involved in? Soviet sources about Soviet atrocities? North Koreans about North Korean atrocities? Catholic sources about crimes committed by the Catholic church (such as the child molestation that was for years poo-poohed and covered up by the leadership of the Catholic church)? Mormon sources about Mormon crimes?

Justamere10 calls this form of ultr-partial investigation "logically much more likely to be accurate than Wicki where anyone with any opinions or axes to grind can and do contribute to the information."

What the heck is so wrong about allowing "anyone with any opinions or axes to grind" to "contribute to the information"?

I thought you said you admired the essential principles upon which the United States of America is based -- those contained within that "sacred document," the U.S. Constitution ostensibly held by orthodox Mormons to be literally a holy document.

Perhaps you forgot to read the very first amendment in the Bill of Rights, justamere10 ... the one that enshrines as primarily and fundamentally necessary for democracy the EXACT principle that you decry here, namely: allowing "anyone with any opinions or axes to grind" to "contribute to the information"?

(You REALLY are showing your latent totalitarian stripes, here, justamere10 ... and, by extension, those of the Mormon orthodoxy you represent.)

Apparently, justamere10 (as a typicial orthodox Mormon) thinks impartiality is the worst way to go about investigating important questions, and that using completely biased, subjective sources from only one side of a dispute (a HUGE conflict of interest) is best way to discover the truth.

Wow. What is this allergy you seem to have to impartial, independent investigation and judgement, justamere10? Doesn't exactly sound like the "American Way" that we've all heard so much about and that you profess to support.

I suppose you'd favor one of the two teams competing in the World Series to provide and pay for all the umpires, too.

Sheesh!
Myoho
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 17 2008, 12:08 PM) *
It is my belief that each human being is a dual creature, a physical body animated and integrated by a spirit body (the ghost in the machine) that abides within. When the spirit permanently departs, the myriad living parts of the physical begin to disintegrate and animation is lost. But the spirit body retains a memory of life's events and learning and lives on awaiting eventual resurrection, the melding forever of the spirit and physical bodies never again to be separated.


This is the main problem I have with Theistic religions. Always desire and attachment. Never to understand non-duality. Instead of looking inside for the answers, they are always looking outside.

Who speaks the sound of an echo?
Who paints the image in a mirror?
Where are the spectacles in a dream?
Nowhere at all -- that's the nature of mind!
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 09:04 AM) *
But I'll think a bit more about engaging in your errors in fact challenge and perhaps find some time to point out a few because you are misleading readers about what the LDS Church and its members are all about.


My intention, justamere10, is to provide to readers of this thread MY view of the WHOLE truth (as opposed to the official, biased, sanitized, official version) about my church ... the good AND the bad.

QUOTE
Your claim to be or have been LDS

What will it take for you to acknowledge that I actually AM a Mormon?! It's not just a "claim," justamere10.

I've already posted my "church membership resume" in post #534. Would you like me to post a jpg image of my baptismal certificate (if I can find it)? My church database record (I think I have a copy of that from a few years ago)? What would you like for verification? Man ...

QUOTE
In my opinion a faithful Latter-day Saint is one who worthily holds a temple recommend and regularly attends the temples.

Two things here:

If that's your definition, then only a small fraction of the aggregate total of all people who are currently on the church roles as baptized members of the LDS church are "faithful members." In my experience, as an active LDS member, serving on the ward missionary team, etc., for my ward for a number of years, far less than one tenth of those attending sacrament meeting on Sunday attended the temple on the "regular basis" held by church leaders as a standard for all members to shoot for, namely, at least once every month. The bishopric was constantly trying everything it could think of to increase temple attendance (group bus trips, etc.), because the actual number of ward members regularly attending the temple as so tiny and sub-standard.

My definition is different. I think faithful Mormons are those who are doing their best to obey the commandments of God and the promptings of His spirit and their own consciences (innate, unseverable connections to the sprit of God). By that definition, you and I both would, I believe (hopefully) qualify as a faithful members.

QUOTE
There is a way back through sincere repentance but my guess is that you are not interested in that at all, it's much more popular to stand in today's tall places and point mocking fingers at former brothers and sisters perhaps in an attempt to rationalize the reasons for your own departure from their company.

My conscience doesn't require me to repent for speaking the truth as I perceive it. On the contrary, my conscience requires me to stand up for my own experience of the truth, regardless of the consequences. Hopefully, I'll have and show the courage throughout my life to do so.

I try hard to hear and follow the promptings of my conscience, although, as is common, I think, for most people, this can be hard sometimes, and I'm certainly far from perfect in doing so. Nevertheless, it is very important to me to try to do this.

That's what I'm doing in this thread, justamere10 (and I do think that you, too, are doing the same thing). And I'm confident -- though be no means certain -- that God approves of my actions here. That's where faith comes in. My faith tells me I'm doing the right thing by presenting my experience and understanding as an LDS member in as truthful a way as I am capable.

Notice that justamere10 wants to dis-fellowship me from my "former brothers and sisters [in the LDS church]." I don't regard them as "former" brothers and sisters, but as eternally my brothers and sisters from the same divine parents (whether corporal or metaphorical). Is this a "Christian" thing to do? Frankly, justamere10, I don't think so.

As far as the "reasons for my departure ...," there's really only one: too much inconsistency and hypocrisy from the orthodoxy of what is claimed to be God's only true church on Earth.

QUOTE
"Others ... and rarely miss opportunities to condemn all things Mormon (such as your opportunistic mention of the Mountain Meadows incident.)

Again (and again, and again ...) justamere10 seems not to be reading my posts.

I think anyone who does will agree that on many occasions I've given glowing praise to what I see as extremely positive qualities and traits found within the LDS church. I've said already more than a couple of times that I see "roughly equally amounts of good and bad fruit on the LDS tree." My complaint, as I've said earlier, repeatedly, is that this 50/50 ratio seems pretty pitiful, frankly, for the "one and only true church on Earth," which is the fundamentalist way in which orthodox Mormons (like justamere10) define the LDS church.

But justamere10 can't hear my praise of the church. He only hears my criticism. I think that's because he's already thrown me under the bus as an "unfaithful member," or an "enemy of the church," because I'm committed to having my eyes open to the WHOLE truth ... not just to the good parts and to one-sided, inherently and inevitably biased, interest-conflicted, official reports and recountings, as justamere10 appears to counsel us is the right, proper, and best thing to do.

QUOTE
... but they cannot leave the Church alone.

I believe men and women in good conscience cannot "leave alone" wrong doing, when they see it.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.

(FYI: I do NOT mean to imply by the Burke quote I've referenced about that I think the LDS church is "evil" ... far from it. I do, however, believe that, as a human institution, it is subject to evil influence and action, as so clearly happened at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and that its full panoply of faults and wrongdoings, like those of any organization, and well as its many virtues and many very, very good deeds, should and need to be exposed to the light of day and independently examined, and repented for, as God (as do all moral and ethical frameworks, to my knowledge) requires equally of all of people and organizations.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (Myoho @ Aug 17 2008, 11:51 AM) *
This is the main problem I have with Theistic religions. Always desire and attachment. Never to understand non-duality. Instead of looking inside for the answers, they are always looking outside.

Who speaks the sound of an echo?
Who paints the image in a mirror?
Where are the spectacles in a dream?
Nowhere at all -- that's the nature of mind!

The essential question, "If God was once a man (as Mormon doctrine posits), who is God's creator ... and His ... and His ... and His ... ? That is, the question "Who or what actually ORIGINALLY created the universe?" cannot be answered by Mormon doctrine.

When I've seen this question brought up among Mormons, the answer has invariably been "We don't really know. Perhpaps we'll find out, later ... but it's probably not important for us to know the answer to this question, right now." That's an honest response, and to my mind, one point on the side of orthodox Momonism, that it's adherents respond to this very important question in this forthright way (if only ALL such important questions were answered by the LDS orthodoxy with such candor and straightforwardness).

There is, almost paradoxically, a very minor mystical side to Mormonism (as a fundamentalist religion, mysticism is generally frowned upon and supplanted by official, codified answers to central questions, approved by the leadership of the church, with which church members in good standing are supposed to agree).

An example of this wonderful mystical side to Mormonism is one of my favorite LDS hymns (a lesser known one): "If You Would Hie to Kolob."

The racial hegemony among the members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir -- a pinnacle of orthodox Mormonism, and probably the best large choir group in the world is striking. As you watch the above YouTube video, you might look for racial diversity among the members choir as you watch them singing this hymn (I saw only one black member, for instance, out of a total of 360).

Here are the lyrics to the hymn. Really amazing mystical references. Overt hints at the Infinite. Rather rare, in my experience, within Mormon theology; most things spoken of in LDS theology are more cut, dried, and "finite;" to me, this hymn is a refreshing departure from that.

I think it's more than a wee bit interesting that this particular hymn was sung at the first General Conference of the LDS church (held twice each year) after the death of former church president and prophet Gordon B. Hinkley in January, 2008. The new first presidency of the church, headed by Thomas S. Monson (always one of my favorite apostles) and filled out by Henry B. Eyring and Dieter F. Uchtdorf (two other of my most favorite apostles; Uchtdorf, a rare non-American-born member of the church's highest leadership, has a life and family background that are particularly interesting, in my opinion).

It could be, I think, that we're currently witnessing, with the trio of Monson, Eyring, Uchtdorf at the head, the beginning of the end of the old secretive paranoia and reflexive, allergic church-wide reaction to criticism that has unfortunately so characterized the LDS church for so long, and the start of a new direction, a liberalization, within the LDS church ... i.e. an opening and humbling of the church about itself and its history, and the creation of a more honest relationship with the world and about its own doctrine and culture (for instance: the recent release of historical documents by the LDS church about the Mountain Meadows atrocity, after a 150 year cover up in which these documents were deliberately hidden from the public). I certainly hope so, in any event.

justamere10 is probably horrified by the opinion I just expressed ... it'll be interesting to see what he says about it.



shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 17 2008, 09:52 AM) *
There is a comprehensive FAIR Wicki report on Mountain Meadows at the following link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

FAIR (don't you love the Orwellian "Double Think" here!) is an unabashedly orthodox Mormon apologist group ... hardly an unbiased, independent source of information (just the kind of subjective, prejudiced, one-sided source justamere10 prefers and recommends, for some reason).
shoeshoe
QUOTE (shoeshoe @ Aug 17 2008, 01:38 PM) *
An example of this wonderful mystical side to Mormonism is one of my favorite LDS hymns (a lesser known one): "If You Would Hie to Kolob."

Correction: I gave the wrong title to the hymn I mentioned in post 566.

The correct title is: "If You COULD Hie To Kolob."

As I said, it's a little-known hymn (I'd never heard of it being performed before seeing the YouTube video I referenced, it's rarely referenced in sacament meeting talks, etc.), and I imagine I'm not the first Mormon to make this particular mistake (most Mormons have probably never heard of the hymn, it's so obscure).

And, yes, it is one of my favorite LDS hymns ... despite the fact that I got one letter in one inconsequential word wrong in the title (I can see justamere10 trying to use this to prove that I know nothing about Mormonism ... I chalk it up to having the average memory of someone in their sixth decade as a human being).
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 11:06 AM) *
Ok, maybe I'll point out a few errors in fact from this one message before I go about doing what I planned to do with the day.

1. Shoeshoe writes: "no one is paid (except at the most senior levels)."

There is no paid ministry in the LDS Church at any level, including "senior levels". But we do have thousands of people who work for the church taking care of temporal affairs all over the world. Those jobs are outside of the Priesthood line of authority. General Authorities are not paid in money for their voluntary service to the Church and its members, neither are bishops, stake presidents, missionaries, or other local leaders.

2. Shoeshoe writes: "No one is paid to clean the church buildings."

The church has a physical facilities department that takes care of maintaining and cleaning all church buildings. People who work in that department are paid for the temporal work they do. They do the heavy cleaning but recently local volunteers do much of the once a week surface cleaning of chapels, classrooms etc.

3. A third error in fact in this one message alone. (Not that it matters, I'm just going along with shoeshoe's challenge and accusations, possibly because as I stated earlier 'good cop, bad cop' sells a lot of newspapers and shoeshoe has been responsible for at least 1,000 thread views that other wise would not have happened. It is my hope that among the lukers are some sincere people who will actually search for the truth by clicking the links in my signature line and anonymously browsing those official LDS websites.) Yes, there are many volunteers and a few missionaries who work in canneries to produce some of the food that is given away to people in need regardless of religious denomination. There are also paid temporal affairs employees supervising and doing other work in the canneries and storehouses.

4. Shoeshoe writes: "women are not allowed to hold church leadership positions outside the Relief Society)" which is another error in fact.

Serving in many other positions even at the general level, are the women who preside over the Young Women's organization of the Church. Women are hugely active in leadership roles in the LDS Church at all levels.

5. Shoeshoe writes: "the church's financial records are a deep, dark secret, and we're not allowed to know that."

Church finances are audited by arms length professionals who report to the entire membership of the Church at every annual general conference of the Church. There is nothing deep or dark about church finances whatsoever. But I suppose such a false assertion serves the agenda of those whose desire and intent is to condemn all things Mormon even while condescendingly mentioning that there are a few gems amongst us and within our organization and doings.

6. Shoeshoe writes: "So, whereas Catholics have hospitals, Seventh Day Adventists have schools, it's impossible to know or quantify really just how much charity the LDS church really does. Again, we just have to trust the orthodoxy"

I suppose the implication is that Mormons do not have hospitals or schools. The truth is that we do, or are closely affiliated as Church members with such. And the truth is that everything the church does is done openly and above board.

But you'd have to go to an official ("orthodox) LDS website or source to find out such information, and that seems to be against the rules of those who choose to put down the Lord's Church and its members.

justamere10 has a lot of this wrong, as I intend to show.

Right now, I'm taking my daughter to a picnic, and hope to finish my response to this post soon.
Myoho
QUOTE (shoeshoe @ Aug 17 2008, 02:38 PM) *
The essential question, "If God was once a man (as Mormon doctrine posits), who is God's creator ... and His ... and His ... and His ... ? That is, the question "Who or what actually ORIGINALLY created the universe?" cannot be answered by Mormon doctrine.

When I've seen this question brought up among Mormons, the answer has invariably been "We don't really know. Perhpaps we'll find out, later ... but it's probably not important for us to know the answer to this question, right now." That's an honest response, and to my mind, one point on the side of orthodox Momonism, that it's adherents respond to this very important question in this forthright way (if only ALL such important questions were answered by the LDS orthodoxy with such candor and straightforwardness).


I appreciate what you are doing with this thread. As you know, I am an ex-LDS member and have been Athieist for almost 30 years now.

I am however a practicing Buddhist and consider myself to be Athiest. And yet, I also accept that there is a higher "realm" of reality beyond the one we find ourselfs in today. But it resembles nothing in the way of any Theistic practice.

I do not wish to hijack or disrupt this thread, because I find it very interesting. However, from my post at the following link you will probably see where I am comming from.

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index...st&p=109323

I will check out the link you provided for the hymn. I remember that some of the LDS hymns are very beautiful.

RoyPDX
QUOTE (shoeshoe @ Aug 17 2008, 11:13 AM) *
Notice that justamere10 is asking us to effectively take a criminal's word about the full truth as to exactly what happened in the commission of his crime.

You don't believe in an independent court system, justamere10?

Why in the world would it be logical to trust the veracity of the very person or organization who committed a particular atrocity, an entity with such and enormously huge conflict of interest, to tell the whole truth about it?

Would you therefore recommend we trust the Unibomber for the truth about what the criminal event he was involved in? Soviet sources about Soviet atrocities? North Koreans about North Korean atrocities? Catholic sources about crimes committed by the Catholic church (such as the child molestation that was for years poo-poohed and covered up by the leadership of the Catholic church)? Mormon sources about Mormon crimes?

Justamere10 calls this form of ultr-partial investigation "logically much more likely to be accurate than Wicki where anyone with any opinions or axes to grind can and do contribute to the information."

What the heck is so wrong about allowing "anyone with any opinions or axes to grind" to "contribute to the information"?

I thought you said you admired the essential principles upon which the United States of America is based -- those contained within that "sacred document," the U.S. Constitution ostensibly held by orthodox Mormons to be literally a holy document.

Perhaps you forgot to read the very first amendment in the Bill of Rights, justamere10 ... the one that enshrines as primarily and fundamentally necessary for democracy the EXACT principle that you decry here, namely: allowing "anyone with any opinions or axes to grind" to "contribute to the information"?

(You REALLY are showing your latent totalitarian stripes, here, justamere10 ... and, by extension, those of the Mormon orthodoxy you represent.)

Apparently, justamere10 (as a typicial orthodox Mormon) thinks impartiality is the worst way to go about investigating important questions, and that using completely biased, subjective sources from only one side of a dispute (a HUGE conflict of interest) is best way to discover the truth.

Wow. What is this allergy you seem to have to impartial, independent investigation and judgement, justamere10? Doesn't exactly sound like the "American Way" that we've all heard so much about and that you profess to support.

I suppose you'd favor one of the two teams competing in the World Series to provide and pay for all the umpires, too.

Sheesh!


And wikipedia articles are not in any way a bunch of people with axes to grind. It's true, when a new, controversial article appears, there's usually a humongous fight among editors, because a lot of "ax grinders" appear on the scene, but ultimately, after the article stabilizes it's generally very balanced (wiki editors are fanatical about using objective, verifiable sources.)
Seeker1
QUOTE (RoyPDX @ Aug 17 2008, 05:42 PM) *
And wikipedia articles are not in any way a bunch of people with axes to grind. It's true, when a new, controversial article appears, there's usually a humongous fight among editors, because a lot of "ax grinders" appear on the scene, but ultimately, after the article stabilizes it's generally very balanced (wiki editors are fanatical about using objective, verifiable sources.)


The Wikipedia method works, relatively well. On matters of historical controversy, the cool thing that happens is people on both sides of the controversy challenge each other's additions to the article, demanding that they source it to an objective source both sides will agree to. This method, at least over time, produces the closest thing you can get to objectivity and neutrality in a user-generated article.

I've found it works relatively well. Oh sure, there's bullshit in Wikipedia. Go to many celebrity pages and you'll find ridiculous bogus entries in their bio. The reason being, there aren't people often with a lot of axes to grind or things at stake with regard to the bios of celebrities, so there's usually nobody hanging around to challenge.



RoyPDX
QUOTE (Seeker1 @ Aug 17 2008, 02:51 PM) *
The Wikipedia method works, relatively well. On matters of historical controversy, the cool thing that happens is people on both sides of the controversy challenge each other's additions to the article, demanding that they source it to an objective source both sides will agree to. This method, at least over time, produces the closest thing you can get to objectivity and neutrality in a user-generated article.

I've found it works relatively well. Oh sure, there's bullshit in Wikipedia. Go to many celebrity pages and you'll find ridiculous bogus entries in their bio. The reason being, there aren't people often with a lot of axes to grind or things at stake with regard to the bios of celebrities, so there's usually nobody hanging around to challenge.


Yes, and sometimes the trolls can be funny...keep an eye on the Katherine Harris article. Someone came onto the scene a year or so ago and trashed the article in a very funny way...lol...at least from a liberal viewpoint.
justamere10
QUOTE (Seeker1 @ Aug 17 2008, 03:51 PM) *
The Wikipedia method works, relatively well. On matters of historical controversy, the cool thing that happens is people on both sides of the controversy challenge each other's additions to the article, demanding that they source it to an objective source both sides will agree to. This method, at least over time, produces the closest thing you can get to objectivity and neutrality in a user-generated article.

I've found it works relatively well. Oh sure, there's bullshit in Wikipedia. Go to many celebrity pages and you'll find ridiculous bogus entries in their bio. The reason being, there aren't people often with a lot of axes to grind or things at stake with regard to the bios of celebrities, so there's usually nobody hanging around to challenge.

I guess I have no right to be attempting to put down the validity of Wicki articles, I really know nothing much about their creation and Wicki has become a popular way for some people to get knowledge about a variety of subjects. I was primarily reacting to the notion coming out from a few writers in this forum that seemingly the last people to ask about something are the people directly involved. Specifically the fact that a lot of active LDS critics will never click a link known to lead to an official LDS source of information.

Church authorities are sensitive to criticism as evidenced once again by the creation of the "Joseph Smith Papers" project. Some of the best historians and talented people available have been recruited to make easily available ALL papers that have anything to do with Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS Church. It is anticipated that the project will be done to such rigid standards that it will take twenty years before the last book is off the press. But then, every critic who pretends to know "secret" things from LDS vaults will have his/her sources dried up because everyone else will have them too and the truth will be out to every serious student's satisfaction, though no doubt the conspiracy theorist adherents will never be satisfied that anything except their own extreme notions are accurate.

LDS Church archives have never been hidden, they have been available in the same manner every other major library makes available its precious original manuscripts, only to authentic scholars and researchers who will cause no concern that they might damage irreplaceable manuscripts.

A man who is involved with that project as a paid professional was in my home a few weeks ago and I had an opportunity to find out a lot of information first hand, including what I said above about one of the motivations for the project. Below is a copy of a message about the project that I posted elsewhere soon after that visit.

------
A huge project is now underway in Salt Lake City to compile and publish the "Joseph Smith Papers". This is going to take many years because it is being done to the standards of the world's scholars. (Just in case someone somewhere should think the Church tells lies about the Church. Once everything's published, no enemy can misquote or validly say they've accessed "secret hidden documents" from the Church archives that nobody else knows about. The archives are open to genuine scholars and researchers in the same manner most other major libraries treat their irreplaceable original documents.)

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org


Why was the project undertaken? Producing a definitive, scholarly edition of Joseph Smith’s papers will allow increased and better scholarship on Joseph Smith and early Mormonism. Scattered documents will be gathered into one multivolume source, and manuscripts of varying legibility will be carefully transcribed and verified. In addition to making the content of these documents more accessible, transcription and publication will help preserve these delicate documents, which are subject to the ravages of age and handling and to possible damage from water, fire, and insects.

<A name=question7>Where are these documents located? Most of the documents are housed in the Church History Library of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Community of Christ (formerly The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) preserves others. Some individual collectors have allowed access to important papers. An extensive search has been made to locate and retrieve images of documents from every significant repository in the United States. Institutions such as the Huntington Library in San Marino, California; the Chicago Historical Society; the Library of Congress; and the university libraries at Princeton, Harvard, and Yale all have relevant documents. Newspaper accounts, court records, and other legal and financial records have come from government repositories in many locations.

How does the project ensure that scholarly standards are maintained?

A qualified, well-trained staff adheres to high standards in transcription, verification, and documentary editing. The project conducts various levels of internal and external review on each volume. An external national advisory board reviews each volume and acts as consultants for the project. The four-member board, recognized scholars in American religious history and documentary editing, is made up of one Latter-day Saint scholar and three scholars of other faiths.

Rules of Transcription

Identifying handwriting, differentiating character strokes from slips of the pen, noticing insertions squeezed into the line of writing, and dealing with poor penmanship require judgment and great care. To ensure accuracy in representing the texts, transcripts were verified three times, each time by a different set of eyes. The first two verifications were done using high-resolution scanned images. The first was a visual collation of the journal images with the transcripts, while the second was an independent and double-blind image-to-transcript tandem proofreading. The third and final verification of the transcripts was a visual collation with the original document. At this stage, the verifier employed magnification and ultraviolet light as needed to read badly faded text, recover heavily stricken material, untangle characters written over each other, and recover words canceled by messy “wipe erasures” made when the ink was still wet or removed by knife scraping after the ink had dried. The verified transcripts meet or exceed the transcription and verification requirements of the Modern Language Association’s Committee on Scholarly Editions and the National Archives and Records Administration’s National Historical Publications and Records Commission.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 17 2008, 05:40 PM) *
LDS Church archives have never been hidden, they have been available in the same manner every other major library makes available its precious original manuscripts, only to authentic scholars and researchers who will cause no concern that they might damage irreplaceable manuscripts.

So wrong, justamere10. This statement is just absolutely false.

I can't tell if you're simply ignorant of the way in which, for at least 150 years, the LDS church as been hiding and covering up information and documents in its possession to prevent damage to the church's public reputation, or whether you're just lying here. I hope it's the former.

Here's evidence to support my assertion:

Below is a summary of an article that recently appeared in the Deseret News, a respected publication in Salt Lake City. I've emphasized parts of the text that support the arguments I've been making in this thread and refute justamere10's, and have excluded entire paragraphs and deleted numerous sentences for brevity (the original is a five page online article). To read the original article in its entirety, everything precisely in context, click the link below).

---

Deseret News, 7/19/08

"Book confronts LDS tragedy," by Carrie A. Moore

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700244245,00.html

"What did the terrible atrocity say about the killers?" who were led by local LDS Church leaders in southern Utah. "What did it say about their church and its leaders? Did early Mormonism possess a violent strain so deep and volcanic that it erupted without warning?"

The questions in the book's preface played out not only in the authors' daily research, but it haunted their daydreams and served up nightmares, they said.

As active members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and all current or former church employees, Ron Walker, Richard Turley and Glen Leonard found themselves immersed in the twisted horror of seemingly godly men trying to justify the cold-blooded murder of 120 men, women and children during nearly a decade of research and writing.

Yet their new book, "Massacre at Mountain Meadows," is dedicated to those most often overlooked in most of the scholarly and secular accounts of the tragedy: "To the victims."

Unlike many previous LDS accounts of the tragedy, it portrays the wagon train emigrants passing through southern Utah in September 1857 as ordinary people with bright futures and some flaws rather than as scoundrels who somehow deserved to die.

Instead of defending the perpetrators — as some both inside and outside the LDS Church believed the book would do — it names the local LDS leaders and their dark deeds in detail, culling from affidavits given to a 19th century church historian by those who participated in the slaughter or learned of it firsthand. The information, which has never before been available to researchers, came from archives owned by the LDS Church, including those of the faith's First Presidency.

What the book doesn't do is implicate then-LDS Church President Brigham Young in directing or ordering the killings. It does describe how [Brigham Young's] wartime preaching and that of other top LDS leaders contributed to the atmosphere of unquestioned authority, conformity, fear and suspicion that ended with terrible, "unexpected consequences."

A former LDS Institute teacher and historian at church-owned Brigham Young University, Ron Walker came to the task with questions of his own, he said. Some people asked whether the project should go forward, and Walker conceded it was a question they asked themselves as much as anyone.

"There is a collective sense of guilt here that's part of our heritage. The only way you can really deal with it — you can't put it in a closet. Ultimately, you have to open it up, open the windows. There is short-term pain, but it seems the only way to get beyond that is with honesty and open disclosure and a sense of regret. Maybe even a sense of confusion."

Research also yielded not only names and other biographical information about the approximately 120 victims and the 17 surviving children, but a listing of their considerable property (including about 900 head of cattle), much of which ended up in the hands of massacre participants, and some of which was taken to Cedar City "and sold at a public auction held at the tithing office."

With affidavits of participants documenting the atrocities in possession of the church for decades, why did it take 150 years for such a full accounting?


"We can only do what we can do when it's our time on the stage," Turley said. "This is our time, and others have dealt with it differently. Our attitude is, look at it openly and honestly. I think that 150 years past the event, people should be about to step back and recognize that no one alive today had anything to do with the events. Though there is a lot of emotion wrapped up in it, still that emotion doesn't need to be directed at living people."

Walker said in the 19th century, when the massacre "was being used as a club to hurt and destroy the church, you have to be defensive, I suppose. You have to be careful. I'm sure that played into the thinking and policy of Brigham Young. But I think this book is an expression of the strength of the Mormon culture today. Now we can take a look at some unfortunate things in our past and deal with them honestly. I think we should be happy about that." [the obvious implication here is that subsequently Mormon culture was NOT strong enough to "deal with [these events] honestly."]

Two religious historians who did not work on the book but have watched its progress said there were also other factors at play in bringing the depth of the historical record to light. Jan Shipps, professor emeritus of history and religious studies at Indiana University-Purdue University, said the information age and ready access to technology have created permanent changes in the ability of any institution [like the LDS church] to keep sensitive information under wraps. For decades, most Latter-day Saints knew little or nothing of the massacre, she said. For young Latter-day Saints learning about LDS history, "they used to send them to seminary and give them the Mormon story and that was that, and they went away from it and kept it and that's what they had in their heads when they went on their missions. Some came back and realized that was not the whole story, just the canonized story." The advent of the Internet and entire ministries devoted to attacking the LDS Church has provided "too much detailed information that's readily available" about the massacre and other sensitive topics.

Philip Barlow, a historian who holds the Leonard Arrington Chair in Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University, said he sees it not only as a mark of the faith's "maturity and confidence to be able to come to terms with their past," but the subject has also become "too big now for the church to ignore with any credibility," in part because the academic study of Mormonism has burgeoned in recent years.

"This was not only a trauma to the victims, their families and descendants, but it was a deep psychological trauma for Latter-day Saints themselves. There has been tremendous denial and avoidance. ... People inside and outside the church will see that the church isn't going to crumble," in light of the book's detailed account of wartime hysteria turned tragic. "Its credibility will deepen and not lessen by its ability to face its warts and difficulties. ...

"People, including Latter-day Saints, want some substantive, authentic history. There's a whole segment of people that are very hungry for that sense of honesty, credibility and self-understanding."[You see? It's not just me, justamere10. There's a "whole segment of people" who have the same feelings I do about the history of dishonesty and compromised integrity within the LDS church, both from inside and outside the organization, and who want very much to see these serious faults remedied.]

Both the authors and scholars see lessons in the details of the conditions that led to the massacre. Those cautionary tales apply across societies and institutions but may be most instructive for Latter-day Saints and their leaders, they said.

Walker said the authors saw "very little unique about Mountain Meadows that is not replicated in many cultures and mass killings throughout history. It fits the pattern. ... What happened in southern Utah is virtually a template of religious and ethnic violence in a time of war."

... I think the church's system of checks and balances works when it's allowed to. But in the case of the massacre, those were overridden. People got caught up in the emotions, in their own self-assuredness. They were caught up in feelings of retribution, caught up in trying to hide their own wrongdoing."

"Mormons are going to be reminded that [the] church is made up of human beings," Barlow said. "The church needs to be conceived by its members as not essentially divine with a few freckles and warts, but as a group of people — fully human — trying to respond to the divine. I think there might be a mental paradigm shift to come to terms with the full humanity of the church as responding to the divine rather than being divine."

" ... It's a case-study in how not to apply religion and how one should apply true religion in one's own life," he said.

As for "digging up the past," as many had worried they were doing for no good purpose, Walker said he believes it could be that the importance of the book "will not be in its historical findings but in its possible legacy for truth-telling," as a copy of the affidavits held by the church for more than a century are published and made available to the public. [i.e. after being deliberately hidden from public scrutiny by the LDS church all these years.]
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 17 2008, 05:40 PM) *
I was primarily reacting to the notion coming out from a few writers in this forum that seemingly the last people to ask about something are the people directly involved. Specifically the fact that a lot of active LDS critics will never click a link known to lead to an official LDS source of information.

By all means! Yes, yes, yes! Official LDS church publications and web sites should OF COURSE be PART of a thorough investigation into the church! Naturally!

But the point that I and others are making here, justamere10, is that, contrary to your explicit and repeated advice, an organization's own materials should not be the ONLY sources of information one uses to find out about that organization!

Do you understand the objection?

It's your insistence that the best way to investigate the LDS church is to use ONLY official LDS materials, and NONE from independent sources that is offensive to me and others. Such an idea seems ridiculous to me, frankly, as I think it does to a number of others in this forum ... as it should rightly appear to all who prioritize truth ahead of dogma.

I hope that's clear, now.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 09:30 AM) *
I assure you shoeshoe that you have not offended me personally, even with this in my opinion highly condescending post in which you attempt to take some kind of high ground with your magnanimous generalizations.

Well exCUSE me for having an attack of the Holy Spirit and trying to get underneath the argument to the fact that none of us is perfect and that everyone wears "glasses" that color the world inaccurately. My bad. Didn't realize you were so difficult to reach. That was actually heartfelt, justamere10, what I wrote that you put down as "condescending" and "magnanimous." Sorry I wasted my time and yours by trying to appeal to something beyond contention and self-righteousness.

Although I'm disappointed, I'm not surprised. Unfortunately, this kind of response is often the way those with "the truth" treat those who sincerely question their dogmatic conclusions, their "sacred cows." I think justamere10 has already thrown me so far under the bus that by now he considers me an "enemy of the church" and therefore I'm not to be trusted or under any circumstances. Doesn't seem terribly Christian, IMO.

QUOTE
Ok, I'll go after the errors in fact thing a bit but in almost every case it will be just my word as a faithful Latter-day Saint for forty years against yours as a currently inactive member for a much shorter time. The reason for that is because I simply do not have the time nor the inclination to do a scholarly reference check. Readers as usual will need to draw their own conclusions.


Wrong, justamere10! You can show commitment to the truth as you see it by taking the time to find and cite real evidence for your assertions!

It seems that justamere10 is just too lazy or uncommitted to back up his "word" with citable evidence. I think that speaks volumes about one of my main points, i.e. the lack of integrity of many in the orthodoxy of the LDS church. Notice justamere10 attacks my credibility by showing his greater longevity as an LDS member, but somehow he doesn't feel his own credibility suffers by willingly opting out of the ethical requirement to cite evidence for his own assertions.

Wow ... those really are different rules of fair play than the ones I was raised with.

Is it really THAT hard take the time to find evidence to back up your assertions, justamere10? I do ... even though some of these posts take me quite some time to put together. Why can't you?

I believe the board rules may actually require citing evidence to back up controversial statements (even if the rules don't demand it, simple honor and common courtesy certainly do):

"Section 2: Hit and Run: Making inflammatory or controversial posts, then abandoning the thread, failing to follow up with a defense of your position."

I could be wrong about the rules. Again, that's up to the mods.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 09:04 AM) *
It was not my intention to fall into your trap of getting two "Mormons" arguing with each other

You're giving me way, WAY too much credit here, justamere10. I don't have a "grand plan" to humiliate you or "bring you down." I'm trying to speak the truth as I see it, in places and at times I think it's important for me to do so (kinda like you ...). That's all. (Sheesh!).
shoeshoe
I'm replying to justamere10's post #540 (the software wouldn't let me reply the normal way, for some reason ... so I've just copied his post below, with my remarks in italics.

---

1.A. What errors, jusatmere10? I challenge you to name them.

I don't believe I've made any errors of fact at all, but if I have, please correct me.

OK, HERE'S A GO AT IT, WITH THE CAVEAT MENTIONED IN MY POST PRIOR TO THIS ONE. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT IT WAS NOT MY DESIRE TO DO THIS, I DON'T THINK THAT IT WILL BE AN ENLIGHTENING OR CONVINCING EXERCISE FOR ANYONE. I'LL TRY THIS ALL CAPS FORMAT INSIDE YOUR MESSAGES, HOPEFULLY IT WILL WORK.


1.B. I've been a member for 12 years, 9 of them actively, and have held the following callings requiring an excellent reputation within my ward and stake, more than a small amount of trust and confidence on the part of the various Bishops I've served under, and much greater understanding, sacrifice, and commitment than that normally resulting from merely taking "the basic missionary discussions and maybe a few gospel principles lessons in Sunday School:"

THAT DEMONSTRATES THAT YOU PROBABLY HAD A TESTIMONY AT ONE TIME. SADLY, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, YOU LOST IT AT LEAST THREE YEARS AGO WHEN YOU STOPPED ASSOCIATING WITH THE SAINTS.

I still have a testimony (experience of the reality of God) ... just not one identical to yours.


- ward (i.e. stake) missionary

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WARD AND STAKE MISSIONARIES.

Not when I was on the ward missionary team. My calling was to visit with new members and review the basic missionary discussions with them, give some added information, attempt to answer any questions they may have as new members, go out occasionally on splits with the regular missionaries to meet with potential new members, etc. -- exactly the same role as what were formerly called "stake missionaries" (or so it was explained to me by the missionary team leader, to whom I reported as first assistant).

- ward mission team first assistant (taking over on numerous occasions for the ward missionary team leader)

I HAVE NEVER BEFORE HEARD THE WORD "TEAM" ASSOCIATED WITH THIS CALLING.

I don't know what to tell you. That's what we called it, as I recall. In any case, if I have the name wrong (it has been a few years), what I'm referring to here is the group of trusted, active members in the ward charged by the bishop with the important job of shepherding new members into active membership, once they've actually been baptized, and helping the full-time missionaries meet and work with new members.


- elders quorum teacher
- Gospel Essentials substitute teacher
- assistant building (chapel) supervisor

I HAVE NEVER BEFORE HEARD OF A CALLING CALLED "ASSISTANT BUILDING (CHAPEL) SUPERVISOR", THOUGH IT IS POSSIBLE THAT A BISHOP OR BRANCH PRESIDENT CREATED SUCH A CALLING POSSIBLY TO HELP KEEP A WAVERING MEMBER INVOLVED. OR MAYBE YOU ONCE HAD A PAID POSITION TO CLEAN MEETINGHOUSES?

There was a high priest in charge of the building, and for about five years I had the calling to show up every Sunday evening and lock up the building (windows and doors), with a set of keys provided to me for that purpose. At one point during this time, I was serving three callings, simultaneously (I was not an idle member, though my questions and doubts about the complete veracity of the church and its leadership were my near constant companions during my years as an active member; I got high points from a number of prominent ward members for really "sticking in there" despite the difficulties I faced nearly continuously throughout this nine year period of serious activity and real, honest commitment to really seeing what the LDS church was all about).

No, I was never paid by the church for anything. Some years ago (five?), word came down that we as a ward (all wards?) had to clean our chapel ourselves. We had to pass around a sign-up sheet in sacrament meeting to get couples signed up to clean the entire chapel once each week, throughout the entire year. I think this was discontinued after a while, though (probably because it wasn't working too well ... we dreaded having to do it, honestly ... I know I did!).


- baptismal speaker

I HAVE OFTEN CONDUCTED BAPTISM MEETINGS AND USUALLY ASSIGNED PEOPLE TO SPEAK A WEEK OR SO BEFORE THE MEETING. THOSE PEOPLE ARE USUALLY FRIENDS OR RELATIVES OF THE PERSON BEING BAPTIZED. I'VE NEVER HEARD OF SOMEONE BEING CALLED AS A "BAPTISMAL SPEAKER" OTHER THAN NOW AND AGAIN AS MENTIONED.

That's what I meant, just as you said, I'd been invited by friends to speak at their baptism, or that of their son or daughter. My intention was to show that at least some respected members in the ward community thought I knew what I was talking about and would honor these important ceremonies appropriately (hence, I was in fact a "real LDS member," despite to your suspicion and semi-accusations to the contrary).

- emergency communications coordinator for my area of the ward, and for several years helped develop, direct, implement, and maintain our wards emergency prep plans,
- both my wife and I have been chosen to travel to a far flung branch to speak, and, as I said earlier, our reputation within our stake is such that we have just been asked to speak at a single's ward Fireside meeting coming in a month or so, in addition to numerous talks I've been asked to give in our own ward on various subjects over the years

Apparently, you had no problem with the above.

2. Apparently, since justamere10 can't offer evidence to refute what I've said, he's now resorting to that last desperate refuge of dishonest debaters, the ad hominem attack ... trying to discredit and distract attention from the message by discrediting the messenger.

I certainly make no claim at all to being a expert on LDS history, and I've never claimed to be. Having studied about the LDS church both from the inside and the outside, and having been fairly heavily involved (much more so than the average member) during the nine years I was active, together with the reading and researching I've done since then, and judging by the conversations I've had with other orthodox Mormons similar to the one I'm having with you (and the respect I've received from them), I believe that by now I do know as much about church history and culture as the average active member, and quite a bit more than the average LDS member (given the rather large percentage of inactive and rather disinterested Mormons, compared to the total number baptized LDS members), if my experience as a ward missionary is any indication of the trend church-wide).

So, you're wrong, justamere10. I do consider myself fairly knowledgeable (though not an expert), on Mormon doctrine, history, and culture. Just because I don't have a PhD in Mormon Studies from BYU (do you?) doesn't mean I can't express my opinions about the church and cite what I believe to be facts about it, which is what I've done and will continue to do. Again, please, if I've said anything factually incorrect, please be specific, and I'll cite my evidence for those assertions or else admit that I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I want to know. My goal is education and actual knowledge, not self-righteous self gratification (though, to be sure, try as I may not to, I'm afraid I do entirely too often slip into the trap of arrogantly making others wrong, which is regrettable).

Frankly, until and unless you can cite evidence showing that my posts are "filled with errors of fact," as you claim, I think it's pretty clear that what's really true is that you wish I didn't know much about the church, because right now the knowledge I do have about it is proving embarrassing to you.

Sorry about that ... but if you'd only come down off that high horse you're on you wouldn't have to suffer so much discomfort.

YOU ARE NOT CAUSING ME TO "SUFFER" OR TO BE IN A STATE OF "DISCOMFORT" AT ALL, THAT'S ANOTHER HIGHLY CONDESCENDING STATEMENT ON YOUR PART IN WHICH YOU DEMONSTRATE NOT THAT YOU ARE "SORRY" BUT THAT YOU THINK YOU ARE ON SOME KIND OF HIGHER GROUND THAN I AM.

I certainly can be condescending, arrogant and self-righteous at times. Some of my faults. Got to work harder on those. Still, honestly, don't you think you do get up on a "high horse" from time to time, justamere10?

BUT I AM CONCERNED THAT YOU ARE MISLEADING PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN KNOWING THE TRUTH ABOUT THE LATTER-DAY SAINTS AND THEIR BELIEFS.

Ditto. I feel the same way about you.
shoeshoe
My responses to justamere10's comments are in italics, below:

---

QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 11:06 AM) *
Ok, maybe I'll point out a few errors in fact from this one message before I go about doing what I planned to do with the day.

1. Shoeshoe writes: "no one is paid (except at the most senior levels)."

There is no paid ministry in the LDS Church at any level, including "senior levels". But we do have thousands of people who work for the church taking care of temporal affairs all over the world. Those jobs are outside of the Priesthood line of authority. General Authorities are not paid in money for their voluntary service to the Church and its members, neither are bishops, stake presidents, missionaries, or other local leaders.

I was referring to jobs within the priesthood, as a way of showing this unique and laudably outstanding characteristic of the LDS church (i.e. that of an unpaid priesthood). By "most senior levels" I meant the current group of 12 apostles and the three members of the first presidency. They are paid, are they not?

2. Shoeshoe writes: "No one is paid to clean the church buildings."

The church has a physical facilities department that takes care of maintaining and cleaning all church buildings. People who work in that department are paid for the temporal work they do. They do the heavy cleaning but recently local volunteers do much of the once a week surface cleaning of chapels, classrooms etc.

I wasn't aware of this. I stand corrected.

3. A third error in fact in this one message alone. (Not that it matters, I'm just going along with shoeshoe's challenge and accusations, possibly because as I stated earlier 'good cop, bad cop' sells a lot of newspapers and shoeshoe has been responsible for at least 1,000 thread views that other wise would not have happened. It is my hope that among the lukers are some sincere people who will actually search for the truth by clicking the links in my signature line and anonymously browsing those official LDS websites.) Yes, there are many volunteers and a few missionaries who work in canneries to produce some of the food that is given away to people in need regardless of religious denomination. There are also paid temporal affairs employees supervising and doing other work in the canneries and storehouses.

I'm not sure what exactly my error is, here, according to justamere10 ...

4. Shoeshoe writes: "women are not allowed to hold church leadership positions outside the Relief Society)" which is another error in fact.

Serving in many other positions even at the general level, are the women who preside over the Young Women's organization of the Church. Women are hugely active in leadership roles in the LDS Church at all levels.

Women do NOT have leadership roles in the church "at all levels" -- this is a flat out misrepresentation, and justamere10 knows it. It is, apparently, an intentional falsehood on justamere10's part.

The organizations justamere10 refers to here are subordinate AUXILIARY organizations to the priesthood, which is the main leadership body in the LDS church to which women cannot belong. The all-male priesthood makes all the important decisions regarding the general administration of the church.

Women hold NO leadership positions in the priesthood AT ALL ... which is where all basic direction for the church as a whole is formulated. The Relief Society was and is authorized BY the LDS priesthood, and cannot cannot do ANYTHING that priesthood leaders disapprove of. Relief Society leaders report to the priesthood, and are underneath priesthood authority in the highly hierachical, top-down LDS church organizational structure. The priesthood, comprised solely of men (traditionally, top priesthood leaders have been nearly all white men, though this is very slowly changing) decides all matters of doctrine, dogma, and overall organization and direction within the church, and is responsible for the success or failure of the church as a whole. NO woman takes any direct part in the final decisions made on these matters (e.g. what is or is not correct church doctrine, receiving revelations from God for the whole church, who is to be nominated for all the various priesthood offices (from LDS president on down), who is to preside at Sunday services, ward, stake, and general conferences, etc., etc.

Here's a delineation of LDS church leadership that I think even justamere10 will admit is legit:

http://lds.about.com/od/organizationsauxil...rch_leaders.htm

Notice that NOWHERE in the reporting structure (in this article it's called the "Communication Structure") will you find a single, solitary woman ...until you reach the very bottom level, that of "the family."

Below you'll find a list of "Church Leaders" that's unimpeachable. Tell me how many women YOU find under "General Authorities" in this list of leaders of the LDS church ...

http://desnews.com/confer/leaders/leaders.htm

Answer: Zero. Zip. Not a one.

Women do NOT hold "leadership roles in the LDS Church at all levels," but only at lower, subordinate, auxiliary levels. To say otherwise is baloney. Justamere10 simply told a deliberate lie, here.


5. Shoeshoe writes: "the church's financial records are a deep, dark secret, and we're not allowed to know that."

Church finances are audited by arms length professionals who report to the entire membership of the Church at every annual general conference of the Church. There is nothing deep or dark about church finances whatsoever. But I suppose such a false assertion serves the agenda of those whose desire and intent is to condemn all things Mormon even while condescendingly mentioning that there are a few gems amongst us and within our organization and doings.

Fine. Perhaps I'm wrong. If I am, you should be able to easily answer some very simple questions, justamere10:

How much money did the church bring in in tithing in 2006? How much did it spend on temple construction in 2005? What was the salary of each of the members of the first presidency in 2004? What did it cost to build the new conference center in Salt Lake City, several years back? What are the assets of the church worth, in aggregate, as of the latest accounting?

If there is indeed "nothing deep or dark about church finances whatsoever," as justamere10 claims, he should be able to easily answer these questions and provide a link to public documentation of the numbers he provides.

But he won't be able to. Because this is another lie.

From Wikipedia (see section 4.6, "Finances"): "The [LDS] church has not released church-wide financial statements since 1959 ..."


6. Shoeshoe writes: "So, whereas Catholics have hospitals, Seventh Day Adventists have schools, it's impossible to know or quantify really just how much charity the LDS church really does. Again, we just have to trust the orthodoxy"

I suppose the implication is that Mormons do not have hospitals or schools. The truth is that we do, or are closely affiliated as Church members with such. And the truth is that everything the church does is done openly and above board.

What hospitals or schools does the LDS church own and run, like the Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. (other than BYU)? Please list them, if you can.

As far as "everything the church does is done openly and above board" ...

Yeah, right. Like not releasing a financial statement since 1959 (see above)? Like keeping important parts of official church archives off-limits to researchers, and hiding documents from public knowledge and scrutiny for 150 years that implicated church leaders in the Mountain Meadows (see my post #575)? Like denying the possession of documents (forged, without the church's knowledge) that the church felt would be embarrassing if it acknowledged their existence and allowed scholars access to them (see here, section 2, "Forgeries")?

Is this what you mean by "openly and above board," justamere10?


But you'd have to go to an official ("orthodox) LDS website or source to find out such information, and that seems to be against the rules of those who choose to put down the Lord's Church and its members.

No, no, no! Official sites and materials should always be PART of any research into any particular question ... naturally. But not the ONLY part!

If you want to know what's really going on at the 2008 olympics, for instance, are you just going to visit Chinese government sites, and no others ... because the Chinese government sites, being the official ones, are therefore the best ones and so they're all one needs to get a true, complete, unbiased picture of all that's going with the 2008 olympics? (After all, the Chinese communists would never just outright lie or present to us a incomplete, inaccurate, misleading, custom-tailored, censored view of their country ... would they?)

That's actually what you've been suggesting, justamere10!
shoeshoe
QUOTE (JRunRun @ Aug 16 2008, 08:33 PM) *
[size=1][/size]

Sounds like a plan. I'll read that book and you read the book I suggested. It references the bible so you don't have to worry about the intent of the sources Rhodes uses.

I have a feeling justamere10's not going to give reading that book another thought. jRunRun. Hope you're not counting on it.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 08:37 PM) *
Apparently there are about 33,000 Christian churches, each with varying interpretations of this or that in the Bible, so I do think I'd have something to worry about. :-)

Why is that "something to worry about?"
shoeshoe
QUOTE (Myoho @ Aug 17 2008, 02:28 PM) *
I will check out the link you provided for the hymn. I remember that some of the LDS hymns are very beautiful.

I hope you like the hymn. I think the lyrics, especially, are just wonderful. Amazing. I'd never actually heard the hymn sung until I came across the YouTube video I linked in my post about this. Until yesterday, I'd only ever read the lyrics, during church. They always stuck out as refreshingly mystical and spellbinding. I used to turn to that hymn in the hymnal and read them, often. They inspired me.

Not that that's the only LDS hymn that's inspired me. I especially like "Love at Home," and especially, many people's favorite, "Come, Come Ye Saints."
JRunRun
QUOTE (shoeshoe @ Aug 18 2008, 02:24 AM) *
I have a feeling justamere10's not going to give reading that book another thought. jRunRun. Hope you're not counting on it.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so.



Nobody likes to be wrong... Especially when it comes to something that you have a deep emotional connection to. So if the book goes unread, it's because justamere10 doesn't want that emotional connection challenged. It takes a strong person to try to challenge their deepest beliefs... whether Mormon, Jewish, Athiest, or even a member abused by a cult. Some people look at it as doubt in God. God understands that people can be misled. If you don't question yourself, you'll never know what path you're really on.
justamere10
QUOTE (shoeshoe @ Aug 18 2008, 12:16 AM) *
By all means! Yes, yes, yes! Official LDS church publications and web sites should OF COURSE be PART of a thorough investigation into the church! Naturally!

But the point that I and others are making here, justamere10, is that, contrary to your explicit and repeated advice, an organization's own materials should not be the ONLY sources of information one uses to find out about that organization!

Do you understand the objection?

It's your insistence that the best way to investigate the LDS church is to use ONLY official LDS materials, and NONE from independent sources that is offensive to me and others. Such an idea seems ridiculous to me, frankly, as I think it does to a number of others in this forum ... as it should rightly appear to all who prioritize truth ahead of dogma.

I hope that's clear, now.

I'm pleased that you admit official LDS media should be included in any serious study of anything pertaining to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was under the impression that you and other critics were wanting to exclude such sources, perhaps I was mistaken, at least in your case.

But when it comes to spiritual matters (unlike the Mountain Meadows event) active knowledgeable Latter-day Saints understand that conversion to God's truths comes only via the Holy Ghost. LDS missionaries and Church media facilitate such a process by providing information that appeals to the intellect and may motivate one to humble oneself before God and sincerely seek enlightenment on things of eternal significance. (Such as what happened with 14 year old Joseph Smith when he was powerfully impressed when reading Jame 1:5 to ask of God for himself.)

http://www.mormon.org does not convert anyone, but it provides a quiet anonymous learning environment where sincere open minded truth seekers can potentially be reached and taught in God's own way, via His Holy Spirit.
justamere10


Shoeshoe writes: "Women do NOT have leadership roles in the church "at all levels" -- this is a flat out misrepresentation, and justamere10 knows it. It is, apparently, an intentional falsehood on justamere10's part."

That's a pretty serious accusation shoeshoe, to call me an intentional liar.



SALT LAKE CITY 6 April 2008 The new Young Women General President for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints told reporters today that parents and the Church are helping young women around the world to realize their potential. Referring to the 540,000 young women of the Church as our “bright, shining hope for the future,” Sister Elaine S. Dalton emphasized the need for them to learn that they are daughters of God and that with that knowledge they can move forward with confidence.

http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/en...e-bright-future

In my mind being president of an organization of 540,000 people constitutes having a leadership role. The all female Relief Society presidency leads millions of women.

But it's true that the Lord has never called a woman to be one of His chosen Apostles. If you think He should, you'll need to take the matter up with Him.

To my knowledge, no priesthood leader at any level, including the Apostles, is paid for their work in the spiritual ministry they voluntarily provide to members of the LDS Church. However, if they are not independently wealthy, because they are unable to take the time to earn a financial income, full-time General Authorities have the same claim on fast offering funds that any other member of the Church has when in need.

Shoeshoe writes: "But he won't be able to. Because this is another lie."

Another serious charge shoeshoe. Have you no fear of the moderators whom you inferred on at least two occasions that I should be standing in judgment of?

If the financial affairs of the Church matter that much to you why don't YOU take the time to dig out financial reports?


I never said the LDS Church officially owns and runs hospitals, I said "we do, or are closely affiliated as Church members with..." What I had in mind was LDS and Children's Hospitals in Salt Lake City.

The Church used to run many schools, especially in the South Seas, but now in addition to the BYU campuses in Provo, Idaho, Hawaii, and Jerusalem and LDS Business College there are thousands of release time seminaries and institutes of religion. The Church Education System is very large and does a wonderful work all over the world. Sorry, nothing deep or dark about that...

I think members and readers of this board are intelligent enough to know that I cannot possibly be familiar with every temporal aspect and policy and procedure of a worldwide church with 13,000,000 members. I write the truth as I know it, and my guess is that is apparent to most readers. But I make no claim to infallibility, nor do we believe that even the Prophet or Apostles are infallible.

I do however, know for myself the truthfulness of many spiritual things because I follow the path that God directs for His children on earth to be in tune with His Holy Spirit. Millions of others do as well.

But I'm not displeased that you continue to harp on the mistakes or apparent mistakes of human beings as you continue to try to run down the LDS Church and its members. A church with millions of members would be scary, or translated like the City of Enoch, if there were no mistakes made over the 180 or so years of its existence.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 18 2008, 09:33 AM) *
Shoeshoe writes: "Women do NOT have leadership roles in the church "at all levels" -- this is a flat out misrepresentation, and justamere10 knows it. It is, apparently, an intentional falsehood on justamere10's part."

That's a pretty serious accusation shoeshoe ...

Shoeshoe writes: "But he won't be able to. Because this is another lie."

These are serious accusations. And I stand by them 100%.

I'm very confident that anyone who references the links I give in post #580 as evidence for my assertion will see that any 40 year veteran active LDS member who says (as you did, in each case) that "women are hugely active in leadership roles in the [LDS] Church at all levels" or that "there is nothing deep or dark about church finances whatsoever (as if the Church openly publishes its basic financial data for all to see)" is guilty of such gross and intentional misrepresentation that only the word "lie" really fits to describe each of these deliberate deceptions.

QUOTE
Another serious charge shoeshoe. Have you no fear of the moderators whom you inferred on at least two occasions that I should be standing in judgment of?

Not at all. There's nothing in the board rules prohibiting one board member from proving that another board member has lied.

QUOTE
If the financial affairs of the Church matter that much to you why don't YOU take the time to dig out financial reports?

Because they don't exist in the public domain, justamere10, as you knowingly, intentionally, and deceitfully implied they did! (Any "40-year, active, veteran member of the LDS church" -- like yourself, according to what you've told us about yourself -- knows that the church does not, and has not for quite some time, released its financial statements to the public.)

The LDS church does, in fact, kept its financial statements secret, and has chosen for nearly 50 years not to make them public, as I proved in post #580.

QUOTE
I think members and readers of this board are intelligent enough to know that I cannot possibly be familiar with every temporal aspect and policy and procedure of a worldwide church with 13,000,000 members.

Then you should, in my opinion, act more responsibly by not making clear, declarative, matter-of-fact statements about things which you are not certain and which you are unwilling or unable to back up with citable evidence.

QUOTE
I do however, know for myself the truthfulness of many spiritual things because I follow the path that God directs for His children on earth to be in tune with His Holy Spirit. Millions of others do as well.

That's fine. That's YOUR truth, justamere10. But not everyone experiences the truth as you do. Just because your religious beliefs are true in YOUR experience, doesn't make them objectively real or true for all other people (although I think you think this does necessarily follow ... that "MY truth is THE truth," as fundamentalists do by definition believe).

QUOTE
But I'm not displeased that you continue to harp on the mistakes or apparent mistakes of human beings as you continue to try to run down the LDS Church and its members.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, justamere10 ...

I'm NOT trying to "run down" anything or anyone. I'm just trying to tell what I see as the WHOLE truth (not just the nice parts) about our church. I think it is clear to objective people reading this thread that I often praise the LDS church in glowing, personal terms, as well as criticize it. I try to do both, in the manner and proportion I feel is justly warranted. I am trying to express my truth, just as you are.

I feel that's the right thing to do.
justamere10
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 16 2008, 10:04 AM) *
It was not my intention to fall into your trap of getting two "Mormons" arguing with each other so readers could eagerly break out the popcorn as one Mormon trashes the other's religious beliefs to the delight of a gleeful already scornful audience. But I'll think a bit more about engaging in your errors in fact challenge and perhaps find some time to point out a few because you are misleading readers about what the LDS Church and its members are all about.

Had you stuck to politics in my opinion you would have been in good company here and fit right in, a very popular fellow, but you are trying to politicize the Saints when most are not even interested in politics. Your claim to be or have been LDS adds more credence to your stories and contrary opinions. Had you not made that claim your ideas would have been on a par with the other critics who write in this thread, mere opinions and weighed as such, nobody expects them to know much about the Church, just to put it down because that's a popular thing to do.

In my opinion a faithful Latter-day Saint is one who worthily holds a temple recommend and regularly attends the temples. You are in fact an unfaithful Latter-day Saint because members who consistently fail to attend the three hour block of meetings each Sunday are considered "inactive" and not eligible for a temple recommend. I think you wrote somewhere that you have been inactive for three years?? There are other reasons why, as evidenced by your writings, you would not be eligible for a temple recommend. You are not among the faithful Latter-day Saints as I define such, you have chosen to exclude yourself from our company.

There is a way back through sincere repentance but my guess is that you are not interested in that at all, it's much more popular to stand in today's tall places and point mocking fingers at former brothers and sisters perhaps in an attempt to rationalize the reasons for your own departure from their company.

I wasn't looking for it, but last night I came across a reference in an unofficial document regarding what I mentioned earlier about those who have lost their testimonies (as you have) not being able to leave the Church alone. I'll quote a few sentences:

"The feelings that accompany and follow deconversion vary according to the individual. Some ex-members struggle through the pain of cognitive dissonance but eventually feel peace with their decision to leave the Church. Others harbor bitter feelings for months, years, or all of their post-Mormon lives. Some in this second group become obesessed with their former faith - actually, obsessed with denouncing their former faith - and rarely miss opportunities to condemn all things Mormon (such as your opportunistic mention of the Mountain Meadows incident.)

As Elder Neal Maxwell once noted, such critcs:

...lecture the rest of us about Church doctrines in which they no longer believe. They criticize the use of Church resources to which they no longer contribute. They condescendingly seek to counsel the Brethren whom they no longer sustain. ...they leave the Church, but they cannot leave the Church alone."


With respect for your right to do so, it is my opinion shoeshoe that although you pretend to be outing the "truth" about the Latter-day Saints in fact you fit the apostate pattern perfectly:

such critcs:

...lecture the rest of us about Church doctrines in which they no longer believe. They criticize the use of Church resources to which they no longer contribute. They condescendingly seek to counsel the Brethren whom they no longer sustain. ...they leave the Church, but they cannot leave the Church alone."

You know full well that the Lord calls only men to be Apostles. You also know that there are women serving at the general level of the Church (though not in Priesthood callings) and in a huge number of leadership callings all over the Church. But you are apparently trying to make a case of some kind that the LDS Church does not respect or honor women, that is not true.

You criticize how the Church uses financial resources, saying it's a deep dark secret. My guess is that it would be as easy to find the financial records of the LDS Church as it would be to find the records of other churches or private organizations. They're just not splashed all over for critics who do not contribute to them to complain about.

You have indicated that you do not sustain and support the Lord's anointed Prophet and Apostles, you seem to want to criticize them publicly. Yesterday I sat within a few feet of a living Apostle of the Lord, along with thousands of others. I learned from him, as you could have also if you had not decided to rebel, go the way of the world, and pretend that you are following God and teaching people what the restored Church of Jesus Christ is all about. Your harping criticisms are petty and sad to those who obey God's word, keep His commandments.

But it's your choice to do what you do and say what you say.

Apparently you left the Church voluntarily about three years ago, but you are not leaving the Church alone...
Randys
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 20 2008, 08:37 AM) *
You know full well that the Lord calls only men to be Apostles.

holy crappola!

how in the hell do you know

a. that there is a lord in the first place

and

b. that he only calls men to be apostles?

do you have any idea how absurd that kind of remark sounds ??
justamere10
QUOTE (Randys @ Aug 20 2008, 09:43 AM) *
holy crappola!

how in the hell do you know

a. that there is a lord in the first place

and

b. that he only calls men to be apostles?

do you have any idea how absurd that kind of remark sounds ??


Absurd only to those who do not know God. An essential prelude to such knowledge is keeping all of His commandments, beginning with the famous Ten. Hard to do, but worth it...
Randys
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 20 2008, 08:51 AM) *
Absurd only to those who do not know God. An essential prelude to such knowledge is keeping all of His commandments, beginning with the famous Ten. Hard to do, but worth it...

ahh, so you are so arrogant you assume I dont know God, but surely you do?

that is laughable...and telling of your extreme, what is the word, religious bigotry.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 20 2008, 08:37 AM) *
You criticize how the Church uses financial resources, saying it's a deep dark secret. My guess is that it would be as easy to find the financial records of the LDS Church as it would be to find the records of other churches or private organizations. They're just not splashed all over for critics who do not contribute to them to complain about.


Really, justamere10 ... haven't you suddenly become unable to read and click?

You said the LDS church does everything "above board" and that its finances are not hidden in secret.

THE LDS CHURCH DOES NOT RELEASE ITS FINANCIAL STATEMENT TO THE PUBLIC ... HASN'T SINCE 1959!!

From Wikipedia (see section 4.6, "Finances"): "The [LDS] church has not released church-wide financial statements since 1959."

QUOTE
You have indicated that you do not sustain and support the Lord's anointed Prophet and Apostles, you seem to want to criticize them publicly. Yesterday I sat within a few feet of a living Apostle of the Lord, along with thousands of others. I learned from him, as you could have also if you had not decided to rebel, go the way of the world, and pretend that you are following God and teaching people what the restored Church of Jesus Christ is all about. Your harping criticisms are petty and sad to those who obey God's word, keep His commandments.

Please notice how justamere10 disrespects my relationship with God and insults my commitment to Him while glorifying his own. He (justamere10) is right, because he is right ... and I am wrong, because I disagree with him. His way is the one and only true way to know God. All others' ways are rebellion and pretense.

I, unlike you, justamere10, am not "teaching" what the LDS church is "all about" but, rather, simply expressing my opinion. I, unlike you, have openly acknowledged that my perceptions could be entirely wrong. You, however, have never done so as far as I know in this discussion, and, I think, frankly, are simply unwilling to even admit the possibility (that does exist, whether you admit it or not) that your own limited understanding as a human being could be mistaken, also.

To me, that's too bad, but at least serves to put in clear relief an entrenched attitude of superiority that I think, frankly, is repellant and does dishonor to the Mormon orthodoxy you're representing.
shoeshoe
QUOTE (justamere10 @ Aug 20 2008, 08:51 AM)