It was announced today that "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ" which you refer to as "that ridiculous work of third-rate 19th century fiction" has now passed the 140 million milestone and is so popular all over the world that it has been translated into 107 languages.

That book contains a promise that those who sincerely pray if it is true will receive an answer directly from God. Millions and millions of people over the last 180 or so years have successfully applied that test and received a positive answer.

Hardly a work of fiction...

But I am tired of responding to the contentious same things written by the same few people. I think I have already said enough about what Mormons really believe to be true, and I'm not at all interested in arguing political opinions or conspiracy theories. I'll drop in now and then though and may write a message or two, especially if I see a sincere "Ask a Mormon" question.

Thanks for your support, I never imagined 11,000 views from this small board!

All the best...

SALT LAKE CITY - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints asked it’s California members to join the effort to revoke the existing right for Gay marriages in California and put in place in the California Constitution a permanent ban for equal legal and protective rights for Gay persons in California.


This process is really a lot about bringing the little d for democracy back into political campaigns. If you can buy a sign for less than $20 and it changes 5 votes that would be money well spent.


http://www.cafepress.com/no_on_prop_8?nocache=yes

Justamere, yours is exactly the kind of thinking that my parents warned me to beware of. And they knew what they were talking about having had some experience with it in a slighly different context. But in reading what you have written and how you have responded to the people on this "small board" I can't help but be amazed at how spot on insightful my mom and dad were. And are.

IMO you have done us all a great service, although not perhaps in the way in which you intended.

11,000 views. My,my. You do realize half of those views are yours.

"Credit you give yourself is not worth having."- Irving Thalberg

Translation:

---

I'm tired of having people pull my skeletons out of the closet and shining the light on my hypocrisy. Besides, people on this board expect you to actually cite reputable, independent evidence for your assertions ... what a hassle.

I'd really just rather keep on saying whatever I feel like saying, regardless of whether or not it's actually true. Because my ethics, just like those of all good totalitarians, are based on the Karl Rove standard (who stole it from Machiavelli):

"The end justifies the means."

So it's fine if I "lie for the Lord." He'll forgive me, because I'm right, and they're wrong, and as long as I believe I'm doing it in the name of "God" (even if I'm actually mistaken), or I'm "just following orders" from someone who I think IS doing so, I've got a free pass. If I sin for the Lord, then it isn't sin (kind of like my hero Richard Nixon said: "If the president does it, then it is NOT a crime").

Screw this ridiculous "democracy" crap. Because the end does, in fact, justify the means. That means I'm ethical. And my end is a righteous one, after all. Really. Trust me. Believe me.

And if you don't believe me ... shut up. (SHUT UP!!)

Because I'm superior, and I know best, and therefore I deserve to control you, and torture you when I want. Because that's what it means to be a totalitarian.

That's just what we do.

---

Those wedded to their hypocrisy never want to discuss dogma and behavior (i.e. politics) at the same time. All you have to do is hide one of these, either dogma or behavior, and your hypocrisy also remains hidden. But put them both in the same discussion? What, are you kidding? Oh, no ... not that ... no way.

Too bad. I'm going to miss our resident LDS totalitarian.

Thanks to justamere10, I now at least have that new descriptor to use, that of the "LDS Totalitarian," and evidence, in writing (his own), that such a person as this does in fact exist.

As a matter of fact, justamere10 is one an even more interesting bunch, the "Unabashed and Self-described LDS Totalitarians." I was always sure that such these people actually existed, though I'd never actually come across one.

At least justamere10 is a nice totalitarian.

Really, wouldn't you rather the person who first robs you of your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness – and then tortures you – at the very least does so politely?

I know I would.

I think you've nailed him, shoeshoe. Justamere lives in a closed self-referencing system in which internal dissent, to the extent that it exists, can be controlled or stifled, while criticism from the outside is regarded as at best misguided and more usually as a deliberate and malevolent attack by the enemies of the People. I mean, the enemies of the Revolution. I mean, the enemies of the State. Sorry. I mean enemies of the Church. And whatever the Church does or asks him to do it will by definition be God's will and his conscience will be clear.

Days before hurricane Gustav is expected to reach land The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints already has trucks rolling towards the Gulf Coast loaded with food and emergency supplies for people of all religious denominations, or none at all.

Such and thousands of like efforts all over the world are made possible because ordinary members of the Church, maybe some of your neighbors, voluntarily refrain from eating two consecutive meals each month, and donate the savings to help those in need.

It's not difficult to criticize our canon and doctrine if all you know about it is misleading information from our critics, but it is difficult to validly criticize the Latter-day Saints for not caring about their neighbors...

Here's a link to details:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/ne...already-rolling


.

I thought good works were supposed to be done quietly and without fanfare.

LOL well, that's only what Jesus said.

justamere10! You're back!

Things just weren't the same ... we missed you so. I was beginning to really wonder ... where in the world were we going to find another "LDS Totalitarian" to expose?

Does this mean you're going to be carrying on an actual conversation with us? I thought you weren't interested in that. Maybe you're not really running from honest conversation, inquiry, and debate, as seemed pretty obvious before.

Let's hope.

Oh, here's a question for you:

What percentage of yearly church income is spent on charitable work like that which you trumpet above? Oh, that's right, you can't say ... because no one outside the top leadership knows, since the financial statements of the LDS church top secret (and have been since 1959).

I saw this quote today, and it reminded me of justamere10:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may
be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under
omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his
cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own
good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own
conscience.”

–C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock

http://www.et.byu.edu/groups/mfg202/pages/...0the%20Wars.pdf

[crickets ...]

Just checking in. I hope everyone enjoyed the long weekend, and wasn't affected overly much by Gustav.

We had a nice weekend, and no, not much, thanks. We were in Canada. But I know that anyone who was affected by Gustav was well taken care of by the Mormon Church. And the Red Cross. And even by FEMA, but most of all by the Mormon Church. Thank you, Justa. I know that you were on the scene passing out the fruits of all that Mormon sacrifice. And if you really were there, God bless you.

So any possibility that you might want to engage in debate here, or is it still the straight party line and no dissent recognized? If it's the latter we've pretty much heard it all and thanks to you we know the sites to turn to to fill in any gaps.

You continue to display enmity and mock the church I choose to affiliate with even when I post what I thought was a caring message for the people who frequent this board at least as much as I do.

No, I was not in New Orleans last weekend and everyone knows that the LDS Church makes no claim to be the only entity that helps people in need, just one of them.

It is my observation that there is no "debate" possible in this thread with those who are the most frequent writers. I tell what I believe to be the the truth about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the religious beliefs and practices of its active mainstream members. You and a few others choose to mock and put down those beliefs, attack me personally, and present your own mainly political ideology that in my opinion has next to nothing to do with religious beliefs and practices.

I know this is a political board and I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Religion Forum. I expect to find an honest respectful discussion about religion in this forum (in keeping with forum rules to be "kind", "courteous" and "civil"), and particularly in this thread, about the "Mormons".

If you were sincerely wanting to "Ask a Mormon" about the Mormons we could perhaps have a useful kind, courteous, and civil discussion. But I'm not interested in your political ideology and you are obviously not interested in learning about the Latter-day Saints. So that's where we are, no respectful debate with you seems possible.

I wish you much contentment with your chosen lifestyle, I will continue to take contentment in mine.

Then why, justamere10, are you yourself so dishonest and disrespectful ... and why do you so frequently make baseless accusations and personal attacks exactly like those you claim to so object to?

Okay, Justa, you bask in the radiance of your righteousness and good works while referring to my sinful "lifestyle" and blithely assuring me that your God will settle my hash later for refusing to fall at His feet now.

You justify your church's blatantly inserting itself into politics by saying that it was forced into it by evil judges who chose to uphold a secular interpretation of the CA Constitution in a secular society rather than bowing to the dictates of your God and furthering the march toward the theocracy which you seem to desire.

And then you get bent and offended because you feel that I'm not properly respectful toward your religion and I call you on your political garbage and you just don't think that's very nice. Typical Fundie.

Shoeshoe, the reality based world thanks you for hangin' in there on this insane thread, and for giving us an informed and experienced opinion.

Same kudos to Tyo.

shoeshoe has done all the heavy lifting. I've just been verbally sniping from the sidelines, but thanks.

What has struck me about this whole thing is that the OP can do little more than recite and illuminate the orthodox line. In fairness, this was his stated purpose. And I've got to say that hearing the orthodox line from someone I have come to trust as a reliable not to mention articulate source has not only been instructive, it's been a godsend.

On those rare occasions when he allows himself to stray into politics (too bad his church is not so cautious and circumspect) he gives us a real heads up about how dangerous and antithetical to the concept of a secular society orthodox Mormonism really is. I would nominate Ask a Mormon for one of the most important threads ever to appear on this board.

Well put Tyo, thank-you for being honest.

Yes, Mormons and other active Christians of all denominations are opposed to the aggressive dangerous efforts being made today to change this nation from the Judeo-Christian society that it has always been (the values that have made it the greatest nation on earth) to a country where the values and lifestyle taught by Jesus Christ (Judeo-Christian) are forcibly done away with by the state, as has happened in many other countries where today there is severely restricted, or no freedom at all for the people.

American Christians will always be opposed to the elitist secularization of the USA. Hopefully we will always be able to express that opposition peacefully, in accord with the Constitution and Bill of Rights of this great nation. If eventually the majority of Americans freely vote for doing away with God and institutionalizing "anything goes" in our society, that will be the end of America as we have always known it. No longer will people all over the world try so hard to immigrate to our country, we'll be the same as all the others...

Sin is a b.s. invention used against humanity for purposes of social control.

I guess it's easy to believe that if you do not believe in God and/or choose to ignore Him, or choose to break His commandments and want to justify your actions or convince yourself that there is no such thing as eternal consequences for your choices during mortality.

But ok, if sin is a manmade elitist invention to control the masses, it tends to work quite well. People who believe in God and treat their neighbors as they would be treated themselves make for an orderly nation of productive contented people. People who choose an "anything goes" valueless godless lifestyle tend to intrude on the freedoms of others and to generate discontent and disorder. Their way of life must ultimately be enforced by violent means because the majority of human beings believe in a Supreme Creator and a genuine purpose for life other than to satisfy one's insatiable appetite for parties and pleasure.

lol I see you're well on your way to becoming a god yourself. Good luck with that.

I hate to contradict someone who is way more knowledgeable about this stuff than I am, but I don't think Christ had much to say about "lifestyle" other than to treat others as you would be treated, take care of people in difficult circumstances, pray quietly, and walk with God humbly. I don't think he really envisioned using the power of the state to enforce Jewish religious laws.

As for America being a Judeo-Christian society, that is true in that the majority of Americans claim some version of Christianity as their religion, although they often disagree with each other, sometimes vehemently, over which brand of Christianity is the true one. One of the things that keeps them from seriously going after each other as well as seriously going after people of other faiths or people of no faith like me, all of which they have regularly done in their violent and bloody past, is the bulwark of a non-Christian secular government.

I can only view people like you who see government as a tool for forcing the dictates of their own particular religion on society as a whole as a threat both to others and to themselves. If you think Mormons would somehow be spared if the Dominionists had their way with society you are dreaming. And I know that my position would be pretty precarious if the orthodox Mormon version of the just and good society were to prevail as the law of the land.

Regarding our origins, I have to disagree with your view of America's founding. America was born of the largely secular, sometimes atheistic Enlightenment, midwifed by men and women who had firsthand knowledge of the chaos and death the coupling of religion with government had caused in the Old World.

One of the main attractions of this country for people from all over the world was not, as you seem to think, our Judeo-Christian culture. It was and is our political secularism which promised to allow all sects and denominations to relate to their version of the deity free from government pressure or favoritism. It was the political secularism that endeavored to protect minorities whether religious, non-religious or racial from the tyranny of the majority. I can vouch for the fact that it wasn't the Judeo-Christian culture that brought my people here. It was that promise, sometimes unfulfilled, that we were coming to a hospitable place where we could succeed or fail free from authoritarianism and oppression whether political or religious.

So, so, so true.

Do you realize this, justamere10? That the most militant of these "other Christians" you like to praise would have you stoned to death just for being a Mormon, if they could get away with it?

There are large and very well organized fascist Christianist groups that want and intend to take over our country and society EXACTLY like their extremist Islamic counterparts are doing in other countries today (e.g. the Taliban).

Christian totalitarians. Get a clue, justamere10, Read the earlier posts, and check out the links I posted to information on these crazies.

Be clear, Christian totalitarians would have NO patience for LDS Totalitarians like yourself, NO tolerance at all for them, and would consider it their very first item of business to ethnically cleanse our nation of Mormon infidels.

These people are nothing more or less than "Christian Taliban." Their goals are exactly the same, that is, to thoroughly dominate others in the name of "freedom," and to do so in the name of "God."

How UTTERLY offensive and blasphemous is that?!?!

Come on, man ... you've got a good head on your shoulders. Why don't you take it out of the sand and use it!

Please ... wake up, justatmere10!

(Oh ... and welcome back.)

Thanks for the acknowledgment, enufladry. I appreciate that very much.

mormons and our mormon here must be thrilled with the pick of sarah palin

she fits all the right ways

a. hates gays
b. hates science
c. hates the constitution (separation bothers her)
d. hates history or knowing any of it

she is a real winner....

Not if the Dominionists have their way. Not if Christian Totalitarians take over (nor if LDS Totalitarians take over, or totalitarians of any stripe, no matter how "well intentioned").

A primary, overt goal of theirs is to DO AWAY WITH the U.S. Constitution 1.0, and write a new version 2.0 in which their own narrow brand of theology becomes the basis for a "new constitution."

I tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday, and I get on my knees and pray ... we don't get fooled again.

Pete Townshend

has been for years, they are hoping to do it with the morons that are on the SC., the right wing morons...remember, clarence thomas isnt fit to be a justice anywhere let alone sc nor are alito or scalia or roberts, they are all are crazy religious morons, and if mccain gets in they will appoint the last 3 and then we are finished...

as i have told people before, it wont effect me...i am a white, heterosexual male and there is little they will do to hurt me, what they will do to everybody else, however, is unthinkable




how does putting their idiotic version of prayer into public school hurt me? doesnt...we have to hope that the people who will be DIRECTLY affected (or is it effected) by these monsters will stand up and be counted now

I'm quite sure justamere10 was pulling for Romney ... because "orthodox Mormons keep religion and politics so separate." [sarcasm]

A great many orthodox Mormons, in my opinion, as justamere10 so well exemplifies, are founding members and comfortable residents of the non-reality-based world that Rove/Cheney/Bush have made so famous during these past 8 disastrous years.

McCain's dangerous, irresponsible, ill-considered, panicked, desperate, hail Mary, "campaign over country" nomination Palin is a perfect product of this non-reality "reality" system based in denial of objective fact and the "repeating of big lies over and over again until people finally just believe them" (the central propaganda strategy of all tyrants and totalitarians). Palin's nomination is such a crystal-clear microcosmic example of the neoconservative world view and philosophy which has as it's base the principles of "survival of the fittest," "win at any cost," "the golden rule: he who has the gold, makes the rules," "the end justifies the means," and "shut up, liberal ... and bow to your betters."

Real "Christian" values, these. [heavy sarcasm]

Touche, Tyo!

This is, of course, and excellent point. The raison de etre for our nation is precisely to NOT found a Christinan nation! To NOT favor one religion over another! Because, as Tyo so rightly points out, the founders of America were sick literally to death of religious totalitarians, like the Christian Taliban who threaten our SECULAR DEMOCRACY today, no different than theocrats in the days of King George (the Third, not W ...), and so they decided to sail to the ends of the Earth just to get the heck away from them!

Justamere10, however, openly advocates LDS totalitarianism, and seems to have no problem with fascist "Christian" Dominionism ... even though these same extreme, terroristic sects would, in all their insane, violent self-righteousness, without a moment's hesitation, completely destroy the entire LDS church (and all other religions) if they could get away with it.

Screw your petty god and b.s. ideology of "sin".

Go find someone else to impose them on. It's not going to work from this corner.

That's an uninformed view, but we could expect that from a theocrat.

We who choose to live free of your personal impositions of your personal hangups on us definitely have values. Starting with "keep your illogical mythololgy-based lifestyle TO YOURSELF".

That is what religious freedom means. Not that you get to impose your lifestyle on everyone around you.

But not to religious fundamentalists/totalitarians, like justamere10 ... who KNOW they are right and that (by definition) you are wrong, that only THEY really know God and Truth, and so ANYTHING they do "in the name of God" is completely justified and good – no matter how irreligious, destructive, intrusive, violent, or otherwise offensive to the Golden Rule, the common thread among all religions, and the primary cornerstone of ethics and morality.

Well, I see that this thread has become entirely political rantings so perhaps it is time for me to move along. If there was an active moderator around to enforce the house rules perhaps a religion forum would work for religious minded people, but if nobody is enforcing the rules there is not much point in having any.

Here are the rules by the way:

"As we all know, religion is a personal and often controversial topic and members have very strong opinions. This is often an area where 'fact' and 'links' are available. Please be kind and courteous to other members. Please remember that when posting in this area, just because another member strongly disagrees with your 'religion' or your points of view, it is not considered a personal attack. If you find it to be too difficult to post in a civil manner, we recommend that you skip this forum."

I wish those who aren't stuck in attack rant mode the very best, and those who are, as much contentment as they can get from their anger and pessimism. Enjoy your board. God bless America.

Justamere, if you are still here, in post 720 you stated your view on the issue of churches and politics and also on what you felt this nation was founded on. Were we not supposed to respond to that?

I can understand if you feel that the gloves are off a little too much of the time around here, although I don't sympathize a whole lot. You have no problem yourself when it comes to dishing it out. And I don't think it's quite fair for you to address religion in politics and then criticize us for doing the same.

Fair enough, that was a civil respectful post with some substance to it.

But I don't know what you want me to say more. I do believe that there are influential people in America who want to secularize our nation and take God and Christian values out of it. I oppose that. Fair enough?

Absolutely. We hold essentially opposite views on these issues. You the theocratic one, I the secular humanist one.

I think they key difference between us is that you have a place in my world where you practice your religion freely and under protection of law and you and your co-religionists could follow what religious rules, rituals and customs you chose to the extent that they do not cause harm to people and are engaged in freely and without coercion. What Mormons do and believe is ideally a matter of only academic interest to me as it should be to the greater society in which Mormons exist.

I don't think that in your world I would have a similar place and similar legal rights and protections to live my life free of the prejudices and dictates of the Mormon Church.

Exactly so.

LDS totalitarians, as justamere10 has in his own words declared himself to be, would definitely prohibit the free exercise of religion, if given the chance (as would any group of fanatical religious fundamentalists).

What I dislike in discourse is when folks word things disingenuously. Case in point: When I hear "they want to secularize our Christian country," it makes me wonder if they really know what they are saying. Even atheists don't want to "secularize the country." What they want is to keep the GOVERNMENT secular...so that all people are safe to practice their beliefs or non-beliefs.

This "hands off" rule for the government has actually contributed to the flourishing of religion in the U.S. And if one looks back in history, it was the Baptist church that wanted this...since at the time they were not a majority anywhere.

It surprises me that a Mormon would want any change in this, they being a minority.

LOL yes, you should definitely move along if you think you have found a candidate for conversion to your rather politicized "Judeo Christian America".

The US is not Christians first, or Christians-only. Never has been, never will be.

Sorry.



You may be interested to know that I started this forum and used to moderate it when I was a moderator.

It's not breaking the rules to disbelieve in your imaginary god or reject your theocratic ideas.

LOL yes, you should definitely move along if you think you have found a candidate for conversion to your rather politicized "Judeo Christian America".

The US is not Christians first, or Christians-only. Never has been, never will be.

Sorry.



You may be interested to know that I started this forum and used to moderate it when I was a moderator.

It's not breaking the rules to disbelieve in your imaginary god or reject your theocratic ideas.

"If there was an active moderator around to enforce the house rules perhaps a religion forum would work for religious minded people, but if nobody is enforcing the rules there is not much point in having any."

It sounds like you want a "protected area" where you can simply preach your particular view on flying spaghetti monsters and no one would be allowed to disagree. Seems to me, that would destroy the entire purpose of this board: open discourse.

[I do believe that there are influential people in America who want to secularize our nation and take God and Christian values out of it.
[/quote]


Big clue: when the vast majority of Christians in this country think of "christianity", they are not thinking of YOU.

You are a cult to them, a nuisance, and viewed with suspicion and antipathy.

Even a cursory glance at LDS history tells us that much.

[I do believe that there are influential people in America who want to secularize our nation and take God and Christian values out of it.
[/quote]


Big clue: when the vast majority of Christians in this country think of "christianity", they are not thinking of YOU.

You are a cult to them, a nuisance, and viewed with suspicion and antipathy.

Even a cursory glance at LDS history tells us that much.

[I do believe that there are influential people in America who want to secularize our nation and take God and Christian values out of it.
[/quote]


Big clue: when the vast majority of Christians in this country think of "christianity", they are not thinking of YOU.

You are a cult to them, a nuisance, and viewed with suspicion and antipathy.

Even a cursory glance at LDS history tells us that much.

[I do believe that there are influential people in America who want to secularize our nation and take God and Christian values out of it.
[/quote]


Big clue: when the vast majority of Christians in this country think of "christianity", they are not thinking of YOU.

You are a cult to them, a nuisance, and viewed with suspicion and antipathy.

Even a cursory glance at LDS history tells us that much.

LOL Say it again, Carmen.

Not surprisingly you do not understand Mormons at all. Here are two of our thirteen "Articles of Faith":

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1

The LDS Church functions well in almost every country and culture in the world, including former communist countries. We are not a threat unless of course it is perceived to be a threat when one helps bring souls to Christ and make people more contented more law abiding members of their society.

Actually, Latter-day Saints believe that the Consitution of the United States of America was inspired of God so that He would have a nation with enough religious freedom for Him to restore His Church. We respect and uphold the Constitution including the vital separation of church and state. That worked for centuries.

But today there are people in high places who are legislating from the bench, defying the will of the majority, and ignoring the Constitution. A typical case is the judges in California who recently ruled in favor of a minority group contrary to the will of the people. Most Christians are opposed to that and since it in effect forces on society with the full weight of the state laws that are opposed to moral values, we get involved in the political process as our part of defending the Constitutional rights of the people.

I know you won't see it that way, but that's how most people who choose to abide by the moral values that our country has always emphasized see it.