Justamere, to clarify, Christian scripture and Mormon doctrine carry no weight with me in a political context. Since I don't recognize their authority or applicability to politics referencing them in support of your position is kind of pointless. They can serve to illuminate and inform your position, but not to justify it.

I understand, you have chosen to reject God and possibly are hoping that He and eternity don't even exist, a lot of people do that.

I really do care about you and your eternal well-being Tyo, but don't be concerned for me if we can't "argue" (as if you would be. :-) As I mentioned earlier, I am writing for the lurkers with the hope that maybe a few will have the courage to click a link in my signature line and learn for themselves some of the things that Latter-day Saints believe to be true.

You're doing a good job Tyo, you bring in the crowds I hope to address. I expect that your civil manner is appreciated by members of the board who prefer to discuss things online similar to the way they converse face to face. (Strange concept for some writers, but fireworks do attract people. :-)

Yes. The same "net effect." Oppression, indignity, cruelty, greed, selfishness, violence ... in short, wickedness.

Which in my mind makes religious totalitarianism worse than political totalitarianism ... because in addition to all the other sins must be added hypocrisy.

Not ordinary hypocrisy, but an infinite, endlessly looping hypocrisy, actually ... since religious totalitarians also invariably preach that hypocrisy itself is a sin.

"Endless loops" crash computers ... and can crash societies just as easily.

I'm not hoping anything like that. I don't hope God doesn't exist any more than i hope there is not an invisible monster under the bed. They are both equally improbable as far as I'm concerned and certainly don't rate the energy required to hope that they aren't real.

Really, how disrespectful, patronizing, and condescending.

Is this how Christians are supposed to behave?


justamere10, once again, demonstrates his own stubborn and entrenched hypocrisy better by his own words than I could ever hope to do by mine.

This tricky Dick Nixon, under the table, cynical, insincere Rovian tactic of his is called "Sowing Discord," as is thought of as sinful by Mormon Doctrine. The LDS church frowns heavily on contention, and especially on deliberately "sowing discord among brothers." Doing so, as justamere10 proudly admits do doing, specifically violates his own LDS religious principles, as one of the things explicitly stated in the scriptures that "the LORD hates ...:"

In Proverbs, it's referred to as "[stirring] up dissent among brothers."

---

Proverbs 6:16-19 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:

17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,

18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

---

Expressing dissenting opinions isn't (or shouldn't be) considered "sowing discord." That wouldn't be consistent with the notion that LDS doctrine encourages and supports "freedom" and "agency," would it?

But deliberately creating arguments in order to further some other, private agenda is the classic definition of "sowing discord," which is exactly what justamere10 is so unashamedly doing here, by his own proud admission.

Again ... is this how Christians are supposed to behave?

After participating in this thread, and realizing just what humanity is really up against, here, I'm thinking of starting a new group:

"NNFRT"

Pronounced "NON-FART," group's name stands for:

"No Nukes For Religious Totalitarians."

Our motto could be:

"Keep matches away from children ... and nuclear weapons away from religious totalitarians."

Anyone want to join?

so, all muslims go to hell?

all buddhists go to hell?

all jews go to hell?

and what about the 9.4 billion people who have lived and died over the past 2000 years who have not had the opportunity to accept Jesus as their lord and saviour? What about the people who all lived and died prior to Joseph Smith showing up with his new religion? (wasnt his deal just a way to legitimize more than one wife? isnt that the whole reason he invented this religion?)

did all those people go to hell too?

I agree. It is, isn't it. But no harm intended really. It comes so naturally to Christians of a certain mindset that they don't even realize how it sounds. Hardcore Catholics are much the same way, I've found.

Different from Fundies of certain other breeds like Evangelicals and Pentecostals, and "Community Churchers" for whom patronization isn't even the start and who use language intended to denigrate and hurt, rather than just thinking it. Actually, I'm not sure which is better. Being despised behind my back or being despised to my face.

It's also the same mindset that sends people out all over the world to try to show other less enlightened people The Way. We can only be grateful I guess that Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and others don't feel the need to inflict their "message" on us in the same way so many Christians do. We wouldn't have a moment of peace.

Actually Latter-day Saints believe that almost everyone will go to heaven! Surprised?

It's just that there are three separate heavens, each with various "mansions" that one can progress within if one so chooses. God Himself dwells only in the highest of the three. The highest is where most faithful Latter-day Saints strive to spend eternity, it's probable that not all of us will qualify.

Latter-day Saints believe that along with the restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ in these times came the apostolic sealing power. Within our temples that special priesthood power is applied by carefully selected high priests and worthy temple workers to take care of essential earthly ordinances such as baptism etc. by proxy for those who did not have a chance to learn about and freely choose to accept or reject the gospel during their days on earth.

In the spirit worlds that we all go to after death, there are people who teach the Plan of Salvation (the Gospel of Jesus Christ) to those who didn't get that information during mortality. They then, as it is on earth, freely choose to accept or reject. If they accept, the temple ordinances have been (or will be during the Millennium) done for them by proxy and they can progress to higher mansions and kingdoms of glory (heavens).

God loves ALL of His children and is perfectly just to each. He provides a Plan of Happiness that each of us can freely choose to accept or reject. It is our belief that everyone ever born or who will ever be born on this earth chose to accept God's Plan in our premortal life. Those who didn't, one third of all of God's spirit children, became the devil and his angels who were cast down to this earth to tempt man and provide the opposition necessary to create situations where we have to make choices, some them with eternal consequences.

We are here today, making those choices...

Christians are taught to love and care for others, that's what Jesus said we should do. It is in that spirit, the spirit of loving and caring for the earthly and eternal well-being of others that some Christians choose to actively teach others what they believe.

Although some critics and enemies of the things taught by Jesus Christ interpret that caring as "disrespectful, patronizing and condescending" or whatever negative labels they prefer to use, most Christians understand that most missionaries are selflessly sacrificing time and resources to sincerely try to help others come closer to God.

Missionaries know they won't succeed with everyone they contact, but they reach a precious few and help bring them unto Christ where there is a much greater possibility that those formerly "lost sheep" will make enough right choices to qualify to live with God the Father forever.

Mormon doctrine has a more liberal idea of heaven, hell, and the ways people are selected for each.

Mormon doctrine posits a multitude of different levels of heaven, with three main ones, the highest one being reserved only for the most devout and faithful orthodox Mormons (where these spirits can continue to progress, with patience and lots of further education and practice, to full god status wherein they can create, together with their orthodox Mormons wife or wives, create, populate, and rule over new worlds, just as the was the case with the Creator of our own world). So, there are even higher levels within the top level ("many mansions") corresponding to more and more advanced spirits on the way to godhood.

Good people who aren't devout, faithful, orthodox Mormons go to the second level.

Bad people go to the third level.

Really, really bad people, those who commit unpardonable sins, go to "outer darkness" which is defined as total separation from God, being roughly equivalent to the traditional concept hell.

So, you could use, I suppose, a baseball analogy:

---

The best, most spiritually accomplished Mormons hit a home run, and get into the higher levels of the number one level (and eventually become gods themselves).

Other devout Mormons hit a triple, and manage to gain admission to the highest level of heaven, though not directly into the "best mansions" therein (and with a whole lot of additional time and hard work, they too can become gods ... that is, they can "run home" and eventually take up residence in the best mansions of the uppermost level of heaven).

Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Christians, etc. who are not faithful orthodox Mormons, but who are nevertheless equivalent as basically moral, ethical, and upright people, hit a double (but can never go home, or advance to any other base).

Criminals, people with lots and lots of sin on their shoulders, hit a single (but can never go home, or advance to any other base).

And those totally devoted and completely committed, by choice, to working AGAINST God, and what's Good in the world, strike out entirely (actually, they're thrown out of the park). Some Mormon theologians think this could include quite a large number of people; most, from what I've read and heard, believe it will include very few.

---

Certainly more just that the "in or out" traditional fundamentalist Christina version of heaven and hell, I think.

However, unless you're a really, really good orthodox Mormon, you're just not eligible for the top rank. So in that sense, it's still cut and dried "in or out" system.

Sort of a "Caste System" model of heaven.

I rest my case

Just curious ...

What happens to the missionaries who have throughout history "gathered sheep" by force or coercion, separated families, forbidden the speaking of aboriginal languages or the remembrance of converts' former cultures, etc., etc.?

Again:

Children shouldn't play with matches, and religious totalitarians (Palin, etc.) shouldn't be allowed to play with nuclear weapons.

[That's the motto of NNFRT ("NON-FART"): No Nukes For Religious Totalitarians. Sorry ... just a little some comic relief, here ... (very little).]

Because (as justamere10, and other religious totalitarians, would say):

---

I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

Because I'm right. And can't be wrong. Period. Nothing else to say. Never mind facts.

...

END OF FILE. RECURSION ERROR 404. INFINITE LOOP. CANNOT SAVE. RESTARTING.

Thank you. The arrogance driving the missionary movement, and not just the Mormon variety, is staggering as is the damage caused both spiritually and materially to the peoples and countries on which missionaries have inflicted themselves.

China had every reason to be suspicious of missionaries during the Games and to attempt to keep them from entering the country. Typically, a number of these good Christians lied in order to get around the rules. The only difference this time was that they didn't have the British navy or other foreign forces to back them up when they got caught.



I'm up NNFRT. When you think God is on your side and that nuking some, oh I donno, Islamic country with a lot of oil that it not Saudi Arabia, is what he wants you to do then the road is clear and there are no nasty moral issues to get in the way. The end of the world will probably be caused by some religous nut job who thinks that he or she is working God's will. Funny how they seem to assume that God is incapable of working His will by Himself with his own hands.

Right, I know I won't "succeed" with you.

Enjoy the day Tyo.

wow, and i thought christians, jews and muslims were crazy...

Insanity. Hypocrisy. Wickedness. Ultimately, destruction.

The unfortunate inevitable hallmarks and consequences of religious fundamentalism.

That's too bad.

The last place I want is to go to is to "heaven". I want all the nutcases as far away from me as possible.

There is no such thing as an altruistic christian.

Their motivation is jewels in their crown, or a planet of their own, or wtfe.

Missionaries are indicative of the violent and control-freak nature of christianity, and Islam as well.

Missionaries are to be rejected and sent on their way.

I think that's definitely not true.

There are all kinds of altruistic people. Some are Christians, some are not.

The fact that there are negative aspects to every religion shouldn't obscure the fact that there are positive aspects as well.

I'm thinking, for example, about Father Damien, the "Leper Priest of Molakai," who went where no one else would go, to care for lepers banished to Molokai by fearful Hawaii Islanders, and who later contracted leprosy and died at the age of 49 of the disease, on Molakai, serving people he loved there. Talk about being like Christ ...

Certain this man, a Christian, should be classified as an altruist, if anyone should.

Ok, let's amend that to, "there's no such thing as an altruistic conservative christian".

That's because there's no such thing as an altruistic conservative lol

There are Christians who are altruistic but they are not altruistic because of their Christianity. Altruism is something that doesn't exist in Christianity. True altruism demands, expects or accepts no reward and Christianity insists that there is a reward whether you want it or not.

Hmmm ... interesting point.

I agree that motivation based on personal reward is inherently selfish and so therefore pollutes to a certain degree one's service done on behalf of another. Service and selfishness are by mutually exclusive, by definition.

Except, the problem is, I wonder then if anyone ever does real service, since I think one is at least unconsiously motivated by the good feeling one will get from serving others; so that conditioned response toward service is actually based to some degree on selfishness (the expectation, even if unconcious, of personal reward), and so the service performed is at least partly motivated by self interest, and therfore is not really service (altruism).

So then, the question is, is altruism possible? Is anyone ever altruistic? I think the obvious answer is "yes," but it must be "no" if the argument above is correct.

Or, it could be that there's nothing wrong with mixed motivations. That one could behave altruistically partly for the sake of pure service and partly for the reward of the good feelings one expects to get for one's self, a post-mortal ticket to heaven, etc..

But that's probably another thread ...

You're right. It's OT here. I'll start a new one and see if anyone is interested in discussing it. Is it okay with you if I incorporate your post here into the new one to get the ball rolling?

Sure, Tyo ... that's fine with me.

I think justamere10's on vacation (maybe just doing the laundry).


























































[crickets ...]

I am catholic am I going to Hell? I love the Virgin Mary and pray hail mary, I have crucifix with Christ on It...

I can't say where you are going when you die as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, maybe you should ask a Catholic Priest for his opinion.

As I recently stated, Latter-day Saints believe that almost everyone will go to one of three kingdoms of glory. Each of those kingdoms are a part of "heaven". God the Father lives in the highest kingdom. He has provided a Plan of Salvation whereby each of us can go to the highest kingdom and there live with Him forever if we are willing to do as He says during our time on earth.

You can learn much more about what Mormons believe regarding where we came from, why we are here on earth, and where we are going when we die, at http://www.mormon.org

All the best with your research.

According to Mormon theology, you will not be able to live in the highest heaven with God The Father, because you are not an (especially faithful) orthodox Mormon.

You will be able to live after death on the second level of heaven, if you're otherwise a generally good and honorable person here on Earth. You'll be able, at that level, to meet face to face with Jesus Christ, but not with God the Father; that will never be possible for anyone but really good orthodox Mormons.

On the third level of heaven, you'd only be able to enjoy visitations from the Holy Spirit, but would never be able to meet personally either Jesus or His Father, God.

You'd have to REALLY mess up BIG time (commit an unpardonable sin like the "sin against the Holy Ghost") to not at least make it to the third level. Most Mormons think the number of people in this last category is quite small, but some Mormon theologians disagree, and think there may be quite a few people in this last category, who are consigned to live forever in "outer darkness."

So, no, it's not Hell for you, but not the highest Heaven, either.

That's the orthodox Mormon view, in a nutshell.

Lol who in blazes wouls want to live with a gaggle of orthodox Mormons?

Give me hell over that, any old day.

That's an open question, certainly.

no wonder someone like mccain/palin can get so many votes...wow...crazy

Wow, turn your head for just a second and meremormon jumps in and starts his endless proselytizing, with the delusional rants are getting stranger and stranger.

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR EVIDENCE OF THE MORMON INVISIBLE SKY-PIXIE! C'mon, show ANY evidence. ANY at all.

Anyway, in response to your thoughtful comments shoeshoe,



Well there' always that false proof, Evidence From Experience. However, there's enough written on that subject that I'm just waiting for meremormon to try that fallacy to justify the unjustifiable.



Because spiritual claims are false by any valid measure (evidence, all human knowledge, reality, logic and reason), this does not mean a spiritualist gets to invent an alternate or second un-testable supernatural reality which is molded to fit their beliefs. That would mean that every mystical claim is justifiable, every belief must be accepted and there is no need for evidence or proof in order for a claim to be valid. Obviously this makes no sense, and is in fact the opposite of reality. Spiritualists don’t get to thumb their nose at all of human knowledge, create something non-temporal and walk away claiming their beliefs are "real" because they have fantasized an untestable alternate reality. That is delusional. Mathematical proof is one type of proof, but there are more. As you know, proof is an entire study unto itself, but is not limited to the empirical. As for a spiritual claim, other than the spiritualist saying it’s real, there is absolutely no reason (or proof) to consider it valid or true.

Always open to new evidence and willing to change my opinion based on same.

Ascertaining "reality" is the whole point of "proof."

But reality is nothing but agreement. For example, you and I and just about everyone else agree that that guy over there is not George Washington, but he says he is, so we call him insane and lock him up.

We "agree" that horses or electrons exist because they (or their effects) can be reliably observed (i.e. measured). So we say horses and electrons are real.

And modern physics even confirms that there is a subjective element to measurement ... i.e. that the act of measurement can change the quantity being measured. So, it really isn't possible to know whether or not a tree falling with no one to witness it makes any sound at all. Only that trees falling with people to witness (measure) them do in fact seem to make sounds every time so far. What happens when no one is there is anyone's guess.

So there is, I think, some real doubt about how to ascertain what is in fact real, and what is just our own distortion of reality. Personally, I think there it's possible that reality can literally be different for different people, depending on how they each "measure" the same thing (like politics or religion).

It's possible, as Hindu's suggest, that "there's no one else out there." That there's only one Being, and that the entire universe is just the inside of that Being's perceptual apparatus. After all, according to the latest science, the only way any if knows there's anything at all "out there" is by electro-chemical perceptual processes taking place inside our own heads. That is, there's literally no one (i.e. nothing) else "out there."

Or such ideas could be seen as delusion. Plenty of people have been locked up for less. Because what they perceived didn't agree with "reality by consent."

WHO KNOWS??!!

That's one reason I say justamere10 could be 100% absolutely correct in every detail about the way things really are regarding man and God. By my perceptions and understanding, I place the probability of that being the case at about 10-15%. I'm betting against it, at the moment, until new information or understanding moves me in a different direction.

But I could be wrong. So could justamere10, of course.

Or, we could both be right, somehow, paradoxically. Paradox seems to be another undeniable but puzzling part of reality (e.g. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem) proving that proof could be an inherently delusional, anyway.

Better stop. My head hurts.

Nope. Utter nonsense. Can't you even see how preposterous this is? There is NO evidence of any such wacky claim. You don't get to make this up meremormon. When you die, you don't "go" anywhere. Let's see your evidence to the contrary.

You can learn much more about these ludicrous and delusional beliefs regarding where they say they come from, why they and their claims are so dangerous here on Earth, and where they humorously believe they are going when they die:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1042...=Book+of+Mormon, http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1042...=Book+of+Mormon

From http://nowscape.com/mormons1.htm --->

"Heaven is on a planet in the constellation Cancer, sector 2813. It is called the Celestial Kingdom. The name of the planet of Heaven is KOLOB. Mormon astronomers at BYU University in Utah have designated it as OJ287, which is located 3.5 billion light-years from Earth in the constellation Cancer . KOLOB, or OJ287 throws an overwhelming beacon of light onto Earth.

Mormonism is the dominant religion on thousands of planets throughout the Milky Way, besides POO, and other planets extending beyond the Large and Small Clouds Of Magellan and beyond the Andromeda galaxy). Notwithstanding the documented visit of the Angel Gabriel, no photographic evidence of Moroni's visitation survives today. Mormon Scholars believe that the silver halide plates in Smith's possession suffered the same fate as Smith's golden plates which contained the hieroglyphics -- the TRUE basis of Mormonism...

...The Heavenly Father (I will use "God" for short) is a physical being, just like you or I, except that he has no blood. Instead, we Mormon thinkers believe that a powder flows through His veins, propelled by air, in an otherwise normal heart. Other slight adjustment to God’s biochemistry and metabolism are of course concurrent with this.

His son, Jesus, (the creator of our solar system, but not of all the universe) is also a physical being, with normal cell function, real blood and so on. The Virgin Mary is a concubine of The Heavenly Father, who had other wives as well, but he never married Mary. Jesus’ half-brother, Beelzebub, the Devil, is also a spiritual being, ( spiritual blood, spiritual lymph etc.,) but He, of course, does not live in heaven. It is God and Jesus and their wives and the angels, all physical beings, who live in heaven.

Mormons make the distinction between spiritual beings and physical beings. The Jehovah-Jesus Duality is The Heavenly Father. He is a physical, being, though his blood carries no oxygen to his brain, and his bladder presumably is filled with Vacuum (Mormon theologians differ)."

The frightening BS is endless.

To be fair, there's no proof that orthodox Mormonism is NOT completely true in every detail. Of course, as you imply, there's certainly no proof that it is completely true.

The way I see it, there are probabilities. I give it a 10-15% shot. Remember, I was an active Mormon for a number of years, otherwise, I'd probably see it like you do (undoubtedly much closer to zero probability).

Mormon culture has a number of unique positive features to it, at least in my experience, having attended various churches and other groups over the years. Since I've seen these things first hand, they motivate me to allow at least some chance that the many ... well ... unusual elements of the theology may actually, at least in some sense, be correct.

Granted, it's a VERY odd theology, at first glance. Odd theology seems pretty widespread, though, if one looks at religions in total.

For me, the proof is in the pudding. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck, flies like a duck ... it's probably actually a duck. My view is that the Mormon church is simply not consistent enough with it's own ethical teachings to qualify as "the one and ONLY true church on Earth." The record just isn't sterling, in my opinion. Half good, half bad. Not nearly good enough to win the prize.

Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck ... but acts like a horse and flies like a B-52.

Probably not a duck.

But there's evidence of a quack or two in there so watch out below, bombers and horses are known to drop a load now and then.

Here's a bit of real about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints amid the load of imaginative droppings that recently hit this once reasonably civil thread:
-----
The Church plans to send to Ethiopia more than 1.4 million pounds (540 tons) of Atmit, special food for the severely malnourished, over a span of three months, with the final shipment scheduled to arrive in the drought-stricken country by November 2008.

At least 14 million Ethiopians are in need of food or cash assistance. While the crisis stemmed mainly from a severe drought that destroyed the entire spring crop in some places, the country has also dealt with high food prices, a number of disasters, and a rebellion in the Somali region that disrupted food delivery.

Remembering the significant aid the Church provided during the 2003 famine, government officials in Ethiopia sent a request for help. The Church answered by setting up a plan to send more than 30 containers of Atmit to the country. Beginning in late August and scheduled to end in October, the Church planned to ship five containers per week to the country, with each shipment taking six to eight weeks to arrive.

As in 2003 the Church worked closely with Project Mercy, a nongovernmental relief agency with experience in Ethiopia. In close coordination with the Ethiopian government, Project Mercy will oversee the distribution of the Atmit.

Atmit is a mixture of oat flour, powdered milk, sugar, salt, vitamins, and minerals that is mixed with water and cooking oil to reach the consistency of cream soup. It has been proven a successful resource for feeding the severely malnourished.

The Church first sent food aid to Ethiopia in 1985 as the country suffered through a yearlong famine that killed more than one million people. During Ethiopia’s 2000 food crisis, grain from Church-owned farms in England was bagged by British members and shipped to the country, and in 2003 the Church provided more than 5,000 tons (4,500 tonnes) of supplementary food to distressed areas.

This is nice. But the point would be.....?

On this board, at least among many of those who write in this thread, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have been portrayed extremely negatively.

I just wanted, perhaps as a parting 'shot' at one of the conspiracy theorists in particular, to inject a bit of down to earth reality about some of the things that "Mormons" really do every day regardless of how "odd" their religious beliefs may seem to be to the misinformed and irreligious.

But you're right, it's probably way past time to retire this thread, it has provided much entertainment I think.

Enjoy the day Tyo.

I've had my say if nobody else writes in this thread, thank-you for obliging me. But I'll check in now and then just in case...

As if only justamere10 has presented anything real about the LDS church in this thread.

Yet another excellent example given to us by justamere10 of the typical arrogance, deception, and denial so endemic, unfortunately, among so many in the LDS orthodoxy.

With all due respect, evidence supporting the claim that one "doesn't go anywhere" after death is equally hard to come by.

I think it's safe to say that neither supposition can be proven, obviously. Either is a possibility. No way to either position with certainty without actually dying. We'd have to ask a dead person, and they aren't very talkative, normally!

After reading what I wrote, here, I realize I may have reacted reflexively and too negatively to justamere10's comments.

I think his point was that as wacky (or worse) as the LDS church seems to many people, there clearly is a positive and beneficent side that deserves recognition and admiration. I agree with this.

"Leaping before really looking" is a bad habit I'm afraid I've still got, after all these years. Sorry about that.

Kind of like how we should respect Scientology because Tom Cruise has a nice smile?

Or Snake Handlers because snakes kill a lot of varmints?

No, but if Scientology does any good then that good should be respected, in the same way that the harm it does that should be rebuked. I'm aware of little good that Scientology does in comparison to the harm it does (or tries to do), however. Nevertheless, whatever good Scientology does should be acknowledged along with the harm. Hitler only wanted to be an artist. Perhaps if his art school application had not been rejected, history would be a whole lot different.

I know from being there that the LDS church is not all bad. Not at all. As anyone who's read this thread knows, I disagree with the church about a great many things, and see an awful lot that is wrong with it, but that doesn't mean everything is wrong. It isn't. There's a lot of good in the church, too.

To deny the good along with the bad is being just as unrealistic and disingenuous as justamere10 usually is when he promotes the LDS church as "the one and only true church on Earth," free from dishonestly and dishonor and devoid of serious fault or defect.

I agree that good works are good works no matter who performs them. To say that evil institutions, which is what i believe the Mormon Church is, can never do anything good is to ignore reality. But I think that it is in bad taste to brag about one's virtues and good deeds. Just do them.

I completely agree.

I think justamere10 feels compelled to brag, because he thinks the LDS church gets an unfairly bad rap, and because unconsciously (if not consciously) he knows that much of the criticism levied against the church is well grounded.

Good deads are cheapened by calling attention to them, and insisting that they be praised. When strings are attached, a gift is not a gift, charity is not chartity ... but merely a bribe.

Although such defensiveness as profusely demonstrated by justamere10 is a natural human reaction, it nevertheless is further evidence of corruption and hypocrisy ... since the whole point of religions like the LDS church to enable human beings to rise above inherent human foibles (the "natural man," in LDS doctrine).

I understand what you are saying. My contention is, in appraising any organization, one should balance the good and the bad. If the bad overwhelms the good, then I throw it all out.

I ... uh ... can't wait for justamere10's next visit.