More bad news for justamere10.

Prop 8 in California is down 55% to 38% in the latest poll, trending downward from the previous poll.

Looks like it'll probably be a rout.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politic...-1n18prop8.html

Works for me. But if the Rethugs can rig a Presidential election they can get Prop 8 through no matter what the actual vote. I'm encouraged, but the champagne doesn't come out until the dust has totlally settled.

Man, is that the truth!

Still, nearly 20 points behind and falling, Prop 8 seems to clearly be on a fast track into the dumpster.

The presidential election is another thing entirely. Neoconservative vote rigging is likely to give McCain a 5-6 point advantage (just a guess on my part), and so things are very uncertain regarding that outcome.

Uncle Barack needs ... YOU!!!

Call now to volunteer, readers, if you haven't already.

We toss in a little sofa change when we can. That's about all we've got at the moment because of this "fundamentally sound" economy. Plus in our neighborhood even the Republicans are voting for Obama. But I'll email and see if they can find something for me to do.

I'm new to this discussion, or any online discussion for that matter. I've only seen the first and last page of this message board and don't know how to jump in. I'm a Mormon and listen to Randi Rhodes almost every day. Although my religion doesn't dominate my political views, I like how Randi talks about the Sermon on the Mounters vs. the End Timers. Perhaps I need to create a new forum for Mormons (if there are any out there) who want to discuss the day's topics. I don't want to take away from the objective of this group.

Welcome, saltlake28!

There are a few Mormons on this board. Myself and justamere10 (who started this thread) being the most notorious. justamere10 is a typical orthodox Mormon; I'm a liberal Mormon. We two, and plenty of others, get into it and at each other pretty directly, in this thread.

You may want to randomly click on various pages of this thread, and just read a couple of dozen posts, to get an idea of what's been said, here. It's really rather interesting, I think.

Are you in Salt Lake City? How to you listen to Randi?

Again ... welcome to the RRMB! Enjoy!

Welcome to the "Ask a Mormon" thread, I'm the one who started it.

I don't mind at all if you participate in this thread, I invite you to for all that may be worth. But it would be prudent of you in my opinion to first read the entire thread and decide for yourself if your skin is thick enough for the kind of mocking insulting messages that are often posted here by the few people who do the writing.

I look forward to reading your posts if you decide to participate.

Enjoy the day.

What you have to understand, saltlake, is that Justamere seems to have come here with the expectation that posting in this forum would be the message board equivalent of sitting about on a languid English summer afternoon nibbling cucumber sandwiches and commenting on the cricket match with fans of the opposing team. It isn't quite that way and after almost 1,000 posts (Go Justa!) he's still cranky about it.

What you've really got to understand right from the start if you're going to jump into this is that I NEVER nibble, even on cucumber sandwiches. But I do have a fondness for languid USA summer afternoons if the fans aren't too loud...

You're welcome here if you know what you're getting into, but Tyo and his buds do give cause to make anyone cranky sometimes.

Speak for yourself, justamere10.

Tyo doesn't make me cranky ... you do. Or, rather, your disingenuous, sanctimonious, totalitarian, sel-righteous, hypocritical b.s. does.

As you can see, saltlake28, the heat is pretty high in this particular kitchen.

Ahww ... poor justamere10. He doesn't like it when people stand up against his holier than thou crap.

Here is someone who declares his religious views to be superior to all others, who comes here to promote the condescending notion that anyone who doesn't agree with him is in need of "enlightening spiritual experience" ... and who then has the temerity to accuse those of us who call him on this garbage of insulting him!

I'm getting dizzy from the spin.

P.S. I can hardly imagine a more unkind suggestion than that a new comer to this thread should actually go to page one and read, serially, all the way through the nearly 1000 posts it contains. Good grief. I think my head would turn to cardboard before I got halfway through. Don't bother, saltlake28. Hunt and peck. I think half hour on random posts will give you the flavor, and let you know where we all stand.

And if you're still around, THAT message was from the guy who claims to be a Mormon.

Funny how we're engaged in giving advice to someone who probably left the building hours ago if he actually read a recent page or two of this thread.

The concept of being on the "winning side" in spiritual or even in secular matters speaks to an utterly supremacist mindset. We're saved- you're damned, therefore we are better than you. You can't distill it down any farther than that.

What he said.

Typical.

Imagine ... justamere10 complains of being insulted by the people he insults.

I'm as much a Mormon as you are, justamere10, as my name is on the church rolls just as many times as yours is.

But again, your barely latent insistence that you are superior to those who dare to disagree with you (e.g. shoeshoe couldn't possibly be a real Mormon, because he doesn't agree with me on all church-related matters) and your disdain for diversity of opinion demonstrate to readers of this thread far better than I could ever hope to illustrate by my own comments what is so wrong and dysfunctional within the LDS church.

That which is "wrong and dysfunctional within the LDS church" tends to voluntarily withdraw. The Church is not for everyone, it requires discipline, humility, obedience to God's commandments. It's ok to let go if you can't hang on, you've already made your choice, that is obvious to everyone reading this thread. You are not alone, you are in familiar company.

The faithful are those who once they have grasped it cling tightly to the "iron rod", keep the commandments and their covenants with God as best they can, and ignore the mocking pointing fingers of those in the tower of worldly pride seen in Lehi's vision, where intellectual reasoning trumps the witness of the Spirit of God.

We all have choices to make, it's a time of sifting.

We-

We've known from the beginning what we were dealing with here One of the most important things about this whole thread for me is that it's given me the chance to interact with a full-blown theocrat from a position of safety. If in other times and under different circumstances if I had had the misfortune to run afoul of Justamere and those who believe like he does they'd have had me burned, hanged, or beheaded for not believing in their God and for having sex with my partner.

As it is his hands are tied as far as temporal punishment goes. The best he can do is under the circumstances is try to get me and my kind rejected by society, and promise us an unpleasant afterlife. But it's only because civil law stands between me and him. If his Prophets and Popes and Pat Robertsons were calling the shots I'd be up SC.

Notice justamere10 cannot allow even the possibility that there is any serious dysfunction within an organization as large as the LDS church (13 million + members).


Apparently, justamere10 considers that is it Godly to be dishonest, that "lying for the Lord" is not sinful, that refusing to admit what anyone with a shred of common sense can tell must obviously be so (i.e. that any organization of more than 13 million human beings is cetainly going to contain elements of essential dysfunction) is being "faithful" and holding tight to righteous principles.

And, of course, no one who disagrees with justamere10 could be "faithful" and "keeping the commandents and covenants with God as best they can ..." Because in justamere10's world, he can declare himself superior to others and worthy of judging their motivations and intentions, rather than leaving any such judgement to God (as his own theology ostensibly requires).

Wow. We really were raised in different ethical systems.


Unlike justamere10, I think God wants us to do our own thinking, instead of relying on the borrowed experience of others and thereby relegating to others (e.g. church leaders) responsibility for our own conclusions and actions.


And, of course, according to justamere10, there's a zero percent chance that he's not right.

What incredible arrogance.

Already happened like that.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre, a religious atrocity ordered by LDS leaders and committed by exactly the kind of "faithful" Mormons "holding tight to the iron rod" that justamere10 considers himself to be, took place on September 11 (of all dates ... how ironic) in 1857.

You have obviously learned absolutely nothing from what I have written, just stoked your own irrational fears of people who believe in Jesus Christ and His teachings. Christian churches in America don't burn, hang, or behead anyone, it's Islamic terrorists who are doing that. Christ taught as the greatest of all commandments to LOVE one another. If everyone in the world would do that there would be no discord or fear of each other.

I am sorry for you that you have so little knowledge of who the enemies of freedom are, and who are the champions. But then, if you refuse to acknowledge your Creator, or if you curse Him for loving you enough to provide a way for you to return to Him forever (the Gospel of Jesus Christ), then you are left to the fleeting things of the world that can and inevitably will end any moment for each of us, end forever...

I have done the best I can and will soon leave this board alone. Perhaps you will be more content then with nobody here to remind you that this life is meant to be a time to make right choices and to prepare to meet your God. Eternity beckons, eternity comes suddenly.

Goodnight Tyo.

You know history better than than that, my friend. The ones who claim Jesus as their own and who claim exclusive understanding of the word of god are the destroyers and the torturers not the peacemakers.



You prove my point over and over again. I don't know "my creator" as defined by you. Therefore in your view I don't know the true enemies of freedom. Sounds to me like there is one way and it's your way. Humanity has been down your road over and over again. Hasn't worked out well for us yet.



You keep threatening that and I hope you don't. You mustn't deprive us of the chance to open your eyes as a Christian. Where are people like the UCC when we need them on this board? Probably busy quietly helping people and spreading the gospel and not trying to enlist the power of the state in support of their religious views. They don't need to. The Mormons apparently do.

OMG ... how deceitful and despicable can you be?

Faithful, orthodox Mormons just like justamere10 executed 120 completely innocent men, women, and children in a mass murder ordered by leaders of a Christian church (the LDS church), IN AMERICA, on September 11 in 1857.

How's that for following Christ's greatest commandment?

Some background for those unfamiliar with the Mountain Meadows Massacre:

On Friday, September 11 two Mormon militiamen approached the Fancher party wagons with a white flag and were soon followed by Indian agent and militia officer John D. Lee.[5] Lee told the battle-weary emigrants he had negotiated a truce with the Paiutes, whereby they could be escorted safely to Cedar City under Mormon protection in exchange for leaving all their livestock and supplies to the Native Americans.[6] Accepting this, they were split into three groups. Seventeen of the youngest children along with a few mothers and the wounded were put into wagons, which were followed by all the women and older children walking in a second group. Bringing up the rear were the adult males of the Fancher party, each walking with an armed Mormon militiaman at his right. Making their way back northeast towards Cedar City, the three groups gradually became strung out and visually separated by shrubs and a shallow hill. After about 2 kilometers, all of the men, women, older children and wounded were massacred by Mormon militia and Paiutes who had hidden nearby. A few who escaped the initial slaughter were quickly chased down and killed. Two teenaged girls, Rachel and Ruth Dunlap, managed to clamber down the side of a steep gully and hide among a clump of oak trees for several minutes. They were spotted by a Paiute chief from Parowan, who took them to Lee. 18 year old Ruth Dunlap reportedly fell to her knees and pleaded, "Spare me, and I will love you all my life!"[7] (Lee denied this). 50 years later, a Mormon woman who was a child at the time of the massacre recalled hearing LDS women in St. George[8] say both girls were raped before they were killed.[9]

All of the Mormon participants in the massacre were then sworn to secrecy.[10] The many dozens of bodies were hastily dragged into gullies and other low lying spots, then lightly covered with surrounding material which was soon blown away by the weather, leaving the remains to be scavenged and scattered by wildlife.[11]

The Pauites reportedly received a portion of the Fancher party's significant livestock holdings as compensation for their part in the massacre. [16] Many of the murdered emigrants' other belongings (including blood stained and bullet-riddled clothing stripped from the victims' corpses) were brought to Cedar City and stored in the cellar of an LDS warehouse as "property taken at the siege of Sebastopol."[3] There are conflicting accounts as to whether these items were auctioned off or simply taken by members of the local population. Some of the surviving children subsequently claimed to have seen Mormons wearing their dead parents' clothing and jewelry. [17]

In 1859, two years after the massacre, Brevet Major James Henry Carleton arrived in the area "to bury the bones of the victims of that terrible massacre". "I saw several bones of what must have been very small children. Dr. Brewer says from what he saw he thinks some infants were butchered. The mothers doubtless had these in their arms, and the same shot or blow may have deprived both of life." "Hamblin himself showed Sergeant Fritz of my party a spot on the right-hand side of the road where had partially covered up a great many of the bones."[20]. Carleton later said it was "a sight which can never be forgotten." After gathering up the skulls and bones of those who had died, Carleton's troops buried them and erected a rock cairn inscribed with the words, Here 120 men, women, and children were massacred in cold blood early in September, 1857. They were from Arkansas, along with a cross bearing the words, Vengeance is mine. I will repay, saith the Lord. According to legend, on the Fourth anniversary of the massacre, Brigham Young himself came upon the monument and ordered it to be torn down. "Vengeance is mine" he said to have muttered "and I have taken a little".[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_and_...eadows_massacre

[Mormon President Brigham] Young's use of inflammatory and violent language[22] in response to the Federal expedition added to the tense atmosphere at the time of the attack. After the massacre, Young stated in public forums that God had taken vengeance on the Fancher party.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_meadows_massacre


Right.

"Freedom" to deny others their freedom, dignity, and right as human beings; to steal other's oil resources and in so doing cause the death of more than 1 million innocent people; to lie, cheat, steal, disappear, hold without charge, and torture; to shred Americans' constitutional and democratic rights, like the right to habeas corpus, in the name of "democracy" and "American interests;" to act like autocratic psychopaths ... but this time under an American flag, behaving exactly like the Soviets and Nazis of old.

That's not "freedom" to people with functioning moral compasses and even a tiny shred of decency, justamere10.

It's barbarity – and the worst kind of moral calamity and failing.


Really ... ?

When are you going to stop saying that, and actually do it?


Man ... what an asshole.

I think that both you and I have learned not to trust anyone who claims to know what life here and hereafter is all about. And follows that up with an admonition to believe his version or else.

I like heated discussions so maybe I've found a good place. I'm still having a hard time catching up on all the rants though. Politically, I would consider myself anything but Republican. Mitt Romney's speech at the convention was embarrassing. How can someone from a faith that once had an extermination order issued against it be for torture? It boggles my mind! Yet, 98% of Mormons will follow him without question. It's like the Sarah Palin phenomenon. "Um.....I like her because........she's a hockey mom...and...stuff". Come on! We need to save the country! After this scary week on Wall Street I think people are starting to get it. As for Utah, well, that's another story.

To answer a couple questions, Yes I do live in Salt Lake and I discovered Randi on XM radio. I grew up in Maine.

Regarding controversies about the LDS church, I'm OK with it. I know there are many unanswered questions concerning the church's positions. Many church members think they need to provide answers to everything. We don't know everything, and that's OK. I trust my own convictions through personal experience that the LDS church is true (despite what I still don't know) and allow others to search for truth in their own manner. I believe that is the purpose of life. We learn through experience what brings us happiness. I would never want to take that learning process away from anyone.

Now, I hope I can demonstrate respect for everyone's views and not let myself be offended. Here we go!

That's exactly what totalitarians like justamere10 call "freedom."

Reminds me of Bush saying over and over again "Freedom's on the march!" as he lies out of every orafice of his body to the people he's supposed to serve while shredding the constitution he swore an oath to defend and protect.

Imagine: a Christian (LDS) fascist calling Islamic fascists the problem. Classic, textbook projection.

Again, I wonder if we may have to start another NGO to deal with this insanity.

Remember NNFRT, "NON-FART," "No Nukes For Religious Totalitarians?"

My experience with justamere10 is urging me to actually file the paperwork ...

Great to have you, saltlake28!

We need additional Mormon voices on this thread.

Sadly, as a Mormon, I have to agree with you.

As one LDS member to another, I'd really like to get your perspective on something.

How do you, personally, reconcile your conviction as to the essential "truth" of the LDS church with the fact that, as you yourself say, 98% of Mormons follow neoconservatives like Romney and justamere10 who unashamedly and unabashedly advocate legalizing torture?

Isn't that a rather glaring contradiction?

And if it is (I certainly think it is), then doesn't that cast doubt on the truth of the LDS church?

If the underpinnings of a religion were reliable and true, how could it be that 98% of the followers of that religion would so enthusiastically embrace something like torture (to name but one of many immoral or unwise neoconservative prerogatives embraced by nearly all Mormons) that is so categorically and obviously immoral and which so utterly contradicts that religion's own teachings?

Doesn't such a contradiction stand, in fact, as evidence for the opposite conclusion ... that the religion in question is fundamentally flawed?

I've been struggling with this dilemma, myself, as a Mormon, for quite some time.

I'd love to hear how you deal with it, and what you're thoughts are.

I think you're doing a great job.

Again, welcome.

YES!

Here's another Mormon who corroborates what I've said many times before about the almost vertical political tilt to the far right of the membership and especially the orthodox leadership of the LDS church.

I hate to say it, justamere10 (okay, I love to say it): I told you so ...

NOW will you admit the truth about this, finally?

(... waiting for justamere10's neoconservative double-speak spin about how 98% isn't really a huge, vast and overwhelming majority.)

I totally agree. Welcome saltlake28.

How do I insert a quote? I'm answering shoeshoe's question about how I reconcile my conviction of the LDS church when I see glaring contradictions.

I have friends who work in the church office building and I hear about disagreements within departments that would occur in any work environment. I can't say that every decision from church headquarters is a direct revelation from God. I have a calling in my ward where I help make decisions with other leaders. We pray for guidance and then work things out together. I don't know if I'm doing exactly what the Lord wants me to do, but I feel good about the process.

At the end of the day when my mind is confused about what I see around me (both in the church and in society), I focus on my personal relationship with God. What does He want for me? I may never get specific answers about why the LDS church get's involved in issues like gay marriage in California or liquor laws in Utah. I may not know why a certain race didn't receive the priesthood until 1978. However, it's those quiet moments when I read the scriptures, pray, and attend church meetings that I receive reassurances to keep going.

Boy, I'm starting to sound like a seminary video. I hope I answered your question.

I like this quote from Elder Wirthlin of the Quorum of the Twelve regarding people who feel lost within the church.

"Some are lost because they are different. They feel as though they don’t belong. Perhaps because they are different, they find themselves slipping away from the flock. They may look, act, think, and speak differently than those around them and that sometimes causes them to assume they don’t fit in. They conclude that they are not needed.

Tied to this misconception is the erroneous belief that all members of the Church should look, talk, and be alike. The Lord did not people the earth with a vibrant orchestra of personalities only to value the piccolos of the world. Every instrument is precious and adds to the complex beauty of the symphony. All of Heavenly Father’s children are different in some degree, yet each has his own beautiful sound that adds depth and richness to the whole.

This variety of creation itself is a testament of how the Lord values all His children. He does not esteem one flesh above another, but He “inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; . . . all are alike unto God.”



I know not everyone will agree with this statement since the LDS church does not accept certain lifestyles. Yet, I believe God understands everyone's personal needs, desires, and struggles. We can always go directly to God.

If that's how God really feels then the Mormon Church doesn't seem to be paying attention. Not that they are alone in this. My suggestion for the religiously inclined is to not let your church stand between you and God and maybe think about dumping your church entirely and just bond with the source. Cut out the middleman.

I respect your opinion.

I can't explain away my beliefs when they are based on feelings. I try my best to balance logic with spiritual yearnings. I don't believe one is more important than the other. God wants us to think things through but also seek his will. When the 'spirit' tells me the Mormon church is true, I will not go against that feeling. People may think I'm a closed-minded, religious fanatic for making such a statement. I spent 2 years in the Philippines declaring the Mormon church is true and those were the best 2 years of my life. My religion is intertwined with my relationship with God. What else can I say?

My question is where do we go from here now that we've established our disagreements about organized religion?

OMG...



Your church is every bit as full of shit as any other.

Well, that didn't take long. I was wondering how long it would take before words of disrespect would take over this discussion. I would never call someone's religion a piece of shit no matter how much I disagreed with it. What are we trying to accomplish here?

No, but you'll go around missionizing the planet, trying to get people to believe in 19th century nonsense, as if it's the truth above all others.

It's not.

It's bullshit, bigoted, elitist and eliminationist. Sorry if it hurts to bring up the history of your bogus, only-in-america religion.

I don't have a problem with religion per se, organized or otherwise. I have a problem with religions that feel the need to inflict themselves on others. Judaism doesn't bother me. Buddhists are fine, except for the Soka Gakkai, who I view as the Mormons of the Buddhist world. Hinduism? Rarely think about it.

What these and other religions have in common is that they don't have a mission to convert the world. In other words they tend to mind their own business and not bother people. This is in stark contrast to the cancer-like evangelical imperative of Christianity and its sibling, Islam. I wish that I could give Christianity as little thought as i do Shinto, for example. But I can't.

On the subject of spreading the gospel and saving the heathen (whether the heathen want to be saved or not) are there any examples of Mormons coming back from their mission as Buddhists or Taoists or something else as a result of their contact with these lesser paths? Probably not a lot since I'm sure that anyone whose commitment to Mormonism is shaky or suspect isn't sent out to convert others but I'm curious.

Personally, I don't have a problem with missionaries, though I understand why some people do.

I think if someone has something they consider extremely valuable to them, and they want to offer it to me, I'm actually very grateful for that, even if I'm not interested. All you have to do is close the door, or put a peep hole in your door and not even choose to answer it in the first place (plenty of people do exactly that).

I do, however, have a REAL problem with taking the giant leap beyond missionary work to advocating totalitarian theocracy, as justamere10 and a GREAT many other conservative orthodox Mormons and other "Christians" do advocate ... inwardly, in their hearts, at least, if not outwardly in their speech or writing.

That's just as plainly unAmerican, unChristian, hypocritical, and terribly evil as you can get, in my opinion. It's religious theocratic fascism, every bit as bad as the Islamic religious fascism that's so prominent and causing so much overt harm these days.

And when you see, as saltlake28 himself has acknowledged, and I myself have noted several times (to the dismay of our resident LDS totalitarian, justamere10), the HUGE, OVERWHELMING, VAST majority of active LDS members and leaders supporting the neofascist Republican leadership that American is currently suffering under, and in so doing either directly or indirectly support such abjectly wicked practices as torture, disappearing people, elimination of habaeas corpus rights for Americans and others, the right to kidnap people of any nation just by accusing them of being an "enemy combatant," wholesale warrantless searches of our personal records (phone, email, regular mail, etc.), national security letters that complete circumvent our constitutional rights as Americans, etc., etc. ... well ... it's McCarthyism on quadruple steroids, and yet the VAST majority of orthodox Mormons enthusiastically approve of it. This is immoral and wrong, wrong, wrong!

How can this be so within any organization, without something being terribly wrong within that organization?

How can this be, in the "one and only true church on Earth?"

That's basically all I'm saying.

I think members of the Mormon church, even those who believe that somehow the essential validity of basic church doctrine can be preserved despite such outward display of intense loyalty to such wicked public policies and practices, need to speak out against the terrible inconsistency between overwhelming LDS support of fascist neoconservative practices and the gospel of Christ, which couldn't possibly be more completely different.

Some are already doing so. But the great, overwhelming majority, of course, are not. Far from it ... they generally act much more like justamere10, excusing and obfuscating the great potential for evil and wickedness that DOES exist within the LDS church (again, all we have to do is look to the Mountain Meadows Massacre for incontrovertible proof of this, and of the great and terrible danger of theocracy in America).

To me, that's simply shameful. And I am ashamed, being a Mormon myself, though no longer an active one (once extremely active, for nine years). Because of that shame, and because of a need I feel to push back against the right-wing bullying and cruelty I see taking over my country, I spend way more time than I should spend on this thread speaking out about it (given my family's precarious financial position as one of the now severely endangered American middle class).

I think it's clear that saltlake28 is not the kind of utterly closed-minded theocrat we've seen here to our horror for so (SOOOOO) long in justamere10. I hope people recognize this.

Personally, I believe it will be through members like saltlake28, who have the level of secure conscience and independent, spiritual maturity to see and feel disturbed by the awful incongruity between the egregious behavior of the Bush Crime Family and the teachings of Jesus Christ, that the corruption that exists within the LDS church will be confronted and healed, if it ever happens.

And I hope this transformation to a higher level of integrity DOES happen, very much.

You don't see Buddhists or Hindus or even Jews going door to door selling their religion to you.

No world leaders or religious leaders talk about bringing to fruition the prophesy of Shiva to dance the dance that will destroy the world.

No world leaders cite the Buddha Mind inspiring them or guiding them to war.

From the beginning of this thread one of Justamere's goals has been to convert. He was a little coy about this at first, but to his credit was pretty open about it as the thread progressed.

In this he shows the arrogance characteristic of so many Christians in presuming that his way is exactly what I need and that whatever values and beliefs I currently hold are inferior or sinful to the degree that they differ from his own.

Missionaries, Mormon or otherwise, share the conviction that they have a lock on absolute truth. They believe that it is their duty to attempt to demolish any religion, culture, or value system which is in conflict with what they hold to be true. They will do this with persuasion to the degree that they can and if persuasion fails they are all too often prepared use lies, deceit and bribery, as well as force and violence to the extent that those latter options are available to them.

Missionaries are not benign or innocuous. Their sole purpose is to destroy, and rebuild in their own image. Looking at their track record over the past three or four centuries they've been pretty successful at least in accomplishing the former.

Though I don't entirely agree with the first two sentences above ... I think it's just plain impossible to dispute the third.

It's funny, shoeshoe, my partner and i saw two Mormon missionaries just yesterday. At least I assume they were Mormon missionaries. Two squeeky clean guys in suits and white shirts and ties walking along the sidewalk with their bookbags. Brown suits, actually. Seems like they usually prefer black. Anyway, if they weren't Mormon missionaries they should have been. They looked totally out of their element in our neighborhood. I'm confident that they didn't have one tattoo or piercing between them.

They wouldn't have struck anyone as threatening and I'm sure that bringing down cultures and religions was the not what they thought their assignment was. But if you think about it, that is in fact exactly what their assignment is. To replace existing religious and societial constructs with those of Mormonism. Or Catholicism. Or whatever depending. Little Justameres without realizing it. As they get older they may think more like you do. and saltlake does. Maybe they do now, I don't know. But the work they are doing is Justa's.

The assumption they have to leave home with is that Mormonism is superior to anything else that exists anywhere in the world. Not for just for them personally. On that level it may very well be. Who am I to say? But to assume any more than that about any religion strikes me as both arrogant and oppresive and potentially deadly. And I think that history backs me up on this.

missionaries are servants of con men...many of them believe what they are doing is right, most are just too ignorant to know better...

ignorance is a cornerstone of all organized religion, without it they cant survive

I agree, Tyo.

But is it wrong to zealously promote something you view as important and critically necessary in the world?

If so, then liberal activism is just as bad as anything religious missionaries do, and I'm just as guilty as any missionaries, since I promote liberal populism every chance I get with true missionary zeal ... because I sincerely believe that neoconservatism is a terribly wicked and evil influence in the world today, and that our only hope is to loosen the stranglehold of the "culture of neoconservatism" around the throat of America before it kills us.

Is there any difference between what I'm doing, and what Mormon missionaries do?

Perhaps the difference is that my goal is not the actual permanent, total destruction of evil (e.g neoconservatism), but rather the rebalancing of evil versus good in the world.

Even in my missionary-like zeal to promote liberalism in America at this critical time, I do NOT mean to eliminate altogether the existence of what I consider to be evil (e.g. neoconservatism, fascism, racism, etc.) but only to prevent it's over-dominance in our culture ... since, after all, I could be wrong about what is "good" and what is "evil." I believe no human being is qualified to make the final determination on that question.

So, I do NOT hope for a world where only liberalism exists (a one-party state). Maybe, somehow, neoconservatism, fascism, racism, or anything else I (through my limited human understanding) view as abjectly evil are not in fact evil. I highly doubt ... but I could be wrong about this, just as I could be wrong about anything else I perceive or think I understand. I'm only human, which is to say ... I could be wrong ... and therefore it's not desirable that my understanding of good and evil (or that of any human being or organization of human beings) should be overly dominant in the world.

Perhaps that's the difference, then, between what fundamentalist religious missionaries (the jusatmere10's of the world) are up to and what I'm doing to "make the world a better place:" the willingness to acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong.

Simply put:

I can admit I might be wrong about what I understand, perceive, and believe.

Justamere10 cannot.

Question-
If the Mormons believe that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are both inspired by God, then they would never contradict each other correct? If they disagree with each other which one would be correct? And since the bible never gives any legitimacy to the book of Mormon (actually condemns it in Galatians 1:6-9, Revelation 22:18-19, 2 Peter 1:3, and Jude 3) why should it be taken seriously?

Examples of differences found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon contends that at the tower of Babel, a group of people known as the Jaredites had their separate language (Ether 1:34-35, emp. added). As most Bible students know, however, until God confused the languages at Babel (Genesis 11:7-9), “the whole earth was of one language” (Genesis 11:1, emp. added). It seems Joseph Smith mistakenly thought there were many different languages at Babel and that God confounded them while sparing the language of the Jaredites. The fact is, there was only one language and God confounded the people by creating different languages.

he Bible tells us that at the crucifixion of Jesus, darkness covered the land for three hours (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44). However, the Book of Mormon states three different times that there was darkness “for the space of three days” (Helaman 14:20,27; 3 Nephi 8:3, emp. added). Of course, this is a big difference.

Finally, whereas the Book of Mormon has people wearing the name Christian in about 73 B.C. (Alma 46:13, 15), the Bible clearly reveals that the disciples of Christ “were called Christians first in Antioch” (Acts 11:26, emp. added). This was in approximately A.D. 40, and thus represents a difference of over 100 years. Which account are people to believe? After all, according to Mormons, both books are inspired.

No book from God’s hand will contain factual mistakes because He does not make mistakes. By definition, He is omniscient and perfect in all His ways (cf. Psalm 139:1-6; 1 John 3:20). The truth is, however, they do contradict one another.

RitaRanch Question-

If the Mormons believe that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are both inspired by God, then they would never contradict each other correct? If they disagree with each other which one would be correct? And since the bible never gives any legitimacy to the book of Mormon (actually condemns it in Galatians 1:6-9, Revelation 22:18-19, 2 Peter 1:3, and Jude 3) why should it be taken seriously?

Hello Rita, thank-you for expressing your opinions regarding the Bible and The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

It is my belief that both of those books contain writings of Hebrew prophets. The major difference is that the Bible is focused on records of the Jews (meaning all the tribes) living anciently in the Middle East, and the Book of Mormon is focused on records of Jews (mainly descendents of Joseph) living anciently in America (Christ's "other sheep".)

It is my belief that the teachings in both books are inspired by God and do not contradict each other anymore than there are contradictions within the Bible due to differences in translation, interpretation, context, human error, etc. The Jews had living prophets amongst them. God spoke to those prophets on both continents providing for them guidance and direction for the circumstances they lived in during their time.

Those who have read the Book of Mormon with an open mind and have sincerely applied the spiritual test of its authenticity do take that second witness of Jesus Christ seriously, and are therefore doubly edified by having within their canon the words of more Hebrew prophets than just the few chosen by councils of men from among many others and added to the volume we know today as the Holy Bible.

Rita: Examples of differences found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon contends that at the tower of Babel, a group of people known as the Jaredites had their separate language (Ether 1:34-35, emp. added). As most Bible students know, however, until God confused the languages at Babel (Genesis 11:7-9), “the whole earth was of one language” (Genesis 11:1, emp. added). It seems Joseph Smith mistakenly thought there were many different languages at Babel and that God confounded them while sparing the language of the Jaredites. The fact is, there was only one language and God confounded the people by creating different languages.

Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Ether. That is a record written on plates thousands of years ago; Joseph Smith translated the record by the gift and power of God.

The Book of Ether makes no such mistake as you propose. At Babel the Lord confounded the one language that all the people at that time and place had. But one group of people, led by a prophet, pleaded with the Lord and He did not confound their language (meaning they walked away with the original tongue intact while others not so favored had their language "confounded".) That group of people were led to the Americas and are possibly the ancient race known to archaeologists as the Olmeca, the ones who left the huge stone heads in Mexico.


Rita: The Bible tells us that at the crucifixion of Jesus, darkness covered the land for three hours (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44). However, the Book of Mormon states three different times that there was darkness “for the space of three days” (Helaman 14:20,27; 3 Nephi 8:3, emp. added). Of course, this is a big difference.

The Book of Mormon records events that took place in the Americas at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus near Jerusalem. There was great destruction and many cities were destroyed along with their inhabitants. The survivors recorded that there was a period of three days in which the air was so thick possibly with volcanic ash, smoke, dust, etc. that no candle or fire could be lit. It was dark for those three days. Yes, that was a big difference from what happened in the Middle East, the two books are not recording the same history.

Not long after his resurrection Jesus Christ appeared to the survivors in America and taught them so well that they had a time of unprecedented peace and prosperity that lasted for 200 years before they turned to pride and worldliness that eventually led to their utter destruction. The Book of Mormon is written as a warning to us in our time that we face a similar fate if we continue in the wickedness that is evident in our nation already.


Rita: Finally, whereas the Book of Mormon has people wearing the name Christian in about 73 B.C. (Alma 46:13, 15), the Bible clearly reveals that the disciples of Christ “were called Christians first in Antioch” (Acts 11:26, emp. added). This was in approximately A.D. 40, and thus represents a difference of over 100 years. Which account are people to believe? After all, according to Mormons, both books are inspired. No book from God’s hand will contain factual mistakes because He does not make mistakes. By definition, He is omniscient and perfect in all His ways (cf. Psalm 139:1-6; 1 John 3:20). The truth is, however, they do contradict one another.

There were many prophets among the Jews who left written records of the dealings of God among their people. Only a few of those books were selected for the Bible. The Book of Mormon is another of those compilations of the sacred writings of Hebrew prophets, this time those in the Americas. The prophets knew a very long time before the birth of Jesus Christ that he would come to the earth and be born as a child. Some of the believers in the Americas called themselves after Christ, using the word "Christians". The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. Today's believers in the Bible and the Book of Mormon are to believe that according to the records available in the Bible, the word Christians only started apparently about 40 AD if Rita has it right, and earlier than that in the Americas. That is not difficult to understand, there is no contradiction, they are two separate histories, continents apart.

There is no contradiction in Christ's teachings between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but there are things in the Book of Mormon that are not included in the Bible (as should be expected from people living on different continents), and there are hundreds of differing interpretations of verses from the Bible.

God does not make mistakes, but human beings do. It was not God who wrote the books we know as scripture, it was men who were inspired by God who wrote them. And it is men who interpret the original languages and the translations and copies of the original manuscripts written by those prophets. It would be nice to live in a perfect world, but we don't.

Thank-you again for sharing your views with us.

Carmenjonze, although I was a little pissed off at your response the other night, I do appreciate your strong opinions. I'm willing to confront difficult issues that have inflicted the church, both past and present.

The beauty of the United States (and other free countries) is that we have freedom of speech to say whatever wacky thing the want. As long as people have the right to choose, then what's the problem with Mormon missionaries saying their church is God's church? The problem I do see is any one religious ideology having too much political control, which is what shoeshoe is talking about.

I had a lenghthy discussion with a friend about where we draw the line in forcing certain behaviors. The reason why I lean towards liberalism is because I think the greatest potential for human progress is in an atmosphere of choice. As long as one is not taking away my right to choose then I'm OK with their beliefs. If you are sinning, that sin is between you and God, not you and the State. If our society is going to hell in a hand basket like many people declare, that is the chance we take as a free people.

Nobody is stopping you from saying Mormonism is the one and only way, any more than anyone is stopping somebody else from saying that the tooth fairy comes and puts dollar bills under children's pillows in exchange for their teeth.

Just don't be surprised when the preachee tells you you are full of crap, just as we tell people who believe in the tooth fairy they are also full of crap.

What is wrong with that?



Sin is a concept used solely for social control.

"Sin" is irrelevant to those of us who enjoy thinking for ourselves and rejecting impositions by 3rd parties like "true churches", correct beliefs, etc.