Let's talk about it, since it's clear to me that people STILL know nothing about it.

Sadly, all I know about it is what I see on tv...

Never been to a black church service, would love to go someday.

I'm one of those people. I really don't know much about it at all. Let's see, what i think I know is....

That the Black Church provided comfort and refuge and strength for black people during the long years of Jim Crow it still fulfills that kind of function today.

The Black Church is tends to be conservative on some social issues, gay equality being one of them. As far as atheism goes, I don't know how religious socially conservative Black people feel about atheists and if it is any different than the feelings of socially conservative white people.

I think that the Black Church is one of the few repositories of American social and political history that is rooted in the Black experience. In many ways I think it serves a the collective memory of Black people in this country.

These are a few of the things that I think. I know it's not much and it might not be totally right either.

well i really know very little about any church but if i had to go, i'd like to go to the black church. seems like their more i dunno alive. more about spirit perhaps.

No such thing, IMHO. Either it's all about Jesus Christ, or it isn't.

I've been to a few of them that are considered black churches, like Abyssinian, etc.

So I reject the term entirely.

Reject or denial? Many of these churches were started because blacks weren't allowed to attend white churches.

Politics were part of many of the early black churches because blacks weren't allowed to hold public meetings nor vote.

There's always tomorrow...

Rejection, because it's been many, many years since blacks have been barred from any churches in America (save the white power wacko ones, I guess).


Well, that's all over, and it's time for the black community to get with the program and understand that, if they choose to self-segregate, they're not immune to the same charges of racism and discrimination they continue to level at everyone else.

You can reject the term, but you cannot reject American church history.

You are correct in that there is no monolithic "black church" that every one talks as if they are experts on, but have never been.

But "Abyssinian" is not a traditionally Black denomination, it's a title, like "Mount Moriah" or "Jones Memorial".

Major Black denominations include the African Methodist Episcopal Church (AMEC), founded 1787; the National Baptist Convention, Inc (NBC), founded 1896; the Christan Methodist Episcopal Church (CME - was "Colored" Methodist Episcopal), founded 1870, Progressive National Baptist Convention (PNBC - MLK's denomination), Church of God in Christ (COGIC), Inc., founded 1907, and several others.

You obviously know less than NOTHING on the topic.

Which doesn't surprise me one bit.

Thank me later for enhancing your remedial education.

Well, some of them can be very dry. I'm partial to my family's denomination, the AMEs, because we started the trend of "protesting" segregated services as early as the 1770s. There are a few AME churches in .ca. All of the Black Methodists (AME, CME, AME Zion [having nothing to do with "Zionism", actually]) tend to be closer to Lutherans or Episcopalians, though there is a lot of contemporary Gospel that has been seeping in over the past 20 years or so. Great services.

Personally, the Pentecostals make me crazy, because they are rabidly homophobic and extremely socially conservative. But they do have a great musical tradition. Can't recommend any of those lol.

Baptists...eh, well imo they can be a mixed bag. But most of the stereotypes on tv or movies are derived from Baptist worship. Broad tradition from very conservative services to rolling in the aisles and a mix of both, which drives me kind of crazy but whatever, I don't have to attend. Many pop singers are Baptist-trained, but then the Baptists denoms are the most populous, anyway. Mirrors other Baptists, which are also the largest Protestant bodies in the US.

There are also Black Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian and Episcopalian congregations, too.

7th Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witness also have many Black congregations. Mormon...not so much lol

Needless to say, there are dots of Blackness in the UCC also, here and there

I recently learned of the AME.



Can't the same be said for Judaism?

Judaism is not a Christian denomination.

Funny thing, that...the smartest people on earth go and Christianize slaves to pacify them, somehow forgetting the FIRST 1/3 OF THE BOOK is about people ESCAPING SLAVERY.

Not exactly. Abraham was the father of traditional Judaism. He was the first to be circumsized. Opinions on this issue will vary, of course.

I have my Bible handy.

Could you point out the verse that says that one racially-based portion of the slaves are to be paid reparations by the government, almost two hundred years after their actual enslavement?

Only then, it was Africans doing the enslaving.

How times change.

Well let's try this. The Black Church is really a misnomer. It's not a monolith and it's pretty complex, the way the history works out.



I can tell you from my own experience: even we agnostics go back to church, eventually. "Don't Ask/Don't tell"...must have been invented by the Black church lol. At least in our denomination, as long as you know how to act, nobody is going to question your personal beliefs. Other more in-your-face types like certain Pentecostals, they might get up in one's grill about this or that belief. I come from a long line of pastors, of which my parents are/were included. It's also where my artistic and musical training is. So it's in my bones. It's that way for a lot of people, especially church musicians.

In fact, I promised friends I'd go tomorrow, so I guess I better drag my rear end out the door in time for 11:00 service.

Personally, I'd say you were right about all those things you mentioned. But soon we should do a little church history, I think. I put a bit in my snarky reply to Pitchfork Pete up there. Maybe we can talk about that on a more civil level.

What I meant to say, was, I reject that the term has any relevance in the society we're living in, and certainly in the society we're trying to build, as Americans.

Exactly right. Episcopal, AME, Baptist, etc....there are a lot of differences to the experience that shouldn't be lumped into one catchall phrase. That does more damage, in terms of understanding one another, than the "black church" thing ever could have helped as an identifier, in recent history anyway.

I meant this grand old church I went to here, actually in Harlem....It was the Abyssinian Baptist Church.

I have a friend who was AME for generations, flipped to "Oneness", which I believe T.D. Jakes is involved in, tried regular Pentecostal, then went back "home" to AME a short time later.

Thank you, I'd never heard of some of the denominations you'd listed.


I never claimed to be Hank Hanegraaf.

I'm not surprised you were knowledgeable, broken clocks and all.

Already did. Don't push your luck.

Yes, I know Abyssinian Baptist in Harlem. Adam Clayton Powell's, Fats Waller's and Hazel Scott's church, among many others.



TD Jakes is not Oneness, to my knowledge, but he is not Trinitarian. More Apostolic than anything. Pentecostals are crazy. I'm glad they came back home.



Yeah, it's called an "education".

I'm quite proud of mine, even though having one and voting for Obama at the same time is now a crime against humanity.



Didn't think so.

There are more. We can have a civilized conversation about it, if you like, but that's up to you.

hey at least you're not a pretard for being a hillary supporter.

besides it sounds like a step up from a driving while black crime.

yeah yeah i know not funny (too much sun and fun)

do most people in america go to church? do most blacks go to church?

just curious, most people here in .ca don't. well i don't think so but i guess i could be wrong.

I am a Hillary supporter, since I would vote for her if she got the nomination.



Not sure.

There have been sociologically-based studies that measure "religiousity" by counting church attendence, but they are problematic.

Can't say what most Black people do. I think it's also generational and regional. The church I go to -- WHEN I go to church -- is a mostly over-50 congregation, which is not unusual for our denomination, I think. The Pentecostals are getting the youth, these days, but that is also because Pentecostals are more likely to force their kids to go to church. I do go when I visit my father in the deep south, as it's the only place to network and get anything done. The youth population in the places I've visited have been much higher, but he also lives in a college town, in a bible belt.



Yeah, it's hard to say.

i went looking for a link ~ this is from 1999 (i realize this isn't an easily measured stat as does the link itself)

but here's the quick breakdown:

Item
Attend at least weekly USA 43% Canada 20%
Never/almost never attend USA 8% Canada 38%


http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

I'm not a Biblical literalist, so I wouldn't care one way or another what the Bible does or doesn't say about it.

As for reparations, as I already told you, screw slavery.

There are two generations of people still living who were held back by segregation. That also means two generations of people living who were its beneficiaries.

Those held back because of color, ancestry, or any such perception, should be compensated by the governmentS that did that. That means using MY tax money including yours. If we could do it for Japanese internment -- Japanese were also HEAVILY segregated on the west coast, which is what led to their interment/relocation in the first place -- we can do it for others deliberately held back by the government.

I started this section in 2004 and moderated it from 2004-2006.

Yes, I do have some idea of what I am talking about on this subject, thanks.

Oh, I love Religious Tolerance. That's been one of my top 3 sites for years.

Well since we are in the hole, Probably for generations, there wont be anyone alive who qualifies when we are no longer in the red.

I'm sure someone, somewhere, is counting on exactly that.

i say the same thing about 'black on black crime' but get harassed by folx all the time when I do...

it what's being done to the victims of the Tulsa riots now.... just waiting for them to die off....

regarding reparations, personally would like to get them, but not in the form of a check/payoff/cash.... just take me and mine off the federal tax rolls, please....

as for the 'black church' convo, member of an episcopalian church that happens to be predominantly black (in my predominantly black neighborhood).... the whole gay issue is one of those that's kind of treated 'under the carpet' as it were... in many black churches that I've visited, gay is the description of the 'musical director', for some reason.....

also, the national is currently splittin up due to the ordainment of the first gay bishop.... not to mention, the first woman to head the national organization....

btw, my church is a member of the national black episcopalian organization....

can anyone confirm, i heard that Trinity United (where I'd probably be a member of if I lived in chi-town) is the only black church in the UCC? and the largest?

http://www.ube.org/main.html



It's probably the largest -- likely also one of the largest UCC churches as well -- but it's not the only one. I'm not sure of the stats, but there aren't many.

Glad to know a Black Episcopalian. I came very close to converting, once in 1990 and again in 1995. Have you heard of St. John's in Los Angeles? I saw Bishop Harris there in 1989. Great experience.

I do know that in parts of the south, they are already breaking away, calling themselves "Anglicans", even though they have no ties to Canturbury at all, all over this human sexuality issue. I talked about it to a Rev. where my father lives. He is totally against it, so I go to that church when I visit my father, if I'm there on a Sunday.

"Black on black crime" is another one of those old overused cliches.

How come they never talk in terms of "white on white crime", the most common kind of crime in the country?

"Get with the program"???????????

Who gave you the right to decide what is an acceptable level of racial discussion or the history of their race?

u know whats funny? next time some kneegrow throws that term around, ask him/her what's so fuccn different about black on black crime compared w/ whyt on whyt crime, latino on latino crime....

talk about imitating stuttering john....

his whyt privilege...

I don;t know what you are talking about

Let's take five and then get started, because we got a country to clean up, a place to set hope alive, a place to set right for humans to live in, to flourish, for families to thrive. And we got so much work to do, we need all the hands we can get, no matter what color they are on the backs, no matter, we need everybody.

Let's take a break and look at what a fellow said about forty years ago:

And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!

Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!
Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!
But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!
Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!
Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

We are not yet free. But finally, the mist is clearing, and we can see again the promised land.

And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people will get to the promised land. And I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.

It is not far. But the time is now. There is no such thing as a land that is partially free. "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."" As long as we are not equal, none of us are free.

America never was just, because it has always been a promise, a hope of where we could get to, rather than a statement of what we are. We have lost hope for a long time. Hope that "This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring."

That day has never been in America, never been. But now is the time to take up the burden and make it happen.

And maybe, when we are old and tired, our grand-children will ask us what life was like in the Old Country, in the Old World. And they will marvel and be grateful. For what we are leaving behind is nothing like what is to come.

Let us set hands to it. We will not finish, but perhaps we can be remembered as the generation that truly set America free. At last.

Free at last, thank God we are free at last. Yes we have before us life and death. Let us choose life so that all the trees will clap their hands and the stars will grow brighter because we have decided to work for peace and justice for all....Nothing is impossible...

Anybody heard the Spiritual this was taken from?

http://faculty.ehshouston.org/bvaughn/Chor...20At%20Last.mp3, arr Jester Hairston.

This on is by a group out of Houson -- sounds like a lot of young voices -- but my favorite rendition is by the Harlem Spiritual Ensemble, though I can't find it on the web anymore.

ok, can we please get back to the topic after that commercial break?

and next time you deem it necessary for 'your argument' to quote 'the dream speech', please start from THE VERY BEGINNING of the speech....

better yet, post 'a letter from a Birmingham jail' too.....

That's what I always say; forget content of character and i have a dream etc, READ THE WHOLE THING

Hell, read all the big ones

'Sunday morning at 11 am' is still the most segregated hour of the week. Even if some official policies have changed, welcomes are not typical. People snicker over coffee about 'salt and pepper' mixed-race couples in the pews. Sweet little old ladies talk about the n-words over dougnuts. It's tough enough walking into a new church, without the added stress of sidelong glances.

Self-protection is not the same as self-segregation and certainly is not racism. If African-Americans were the dominant numerical majority in America, and supported by almost 400 years of entrenched racial privilege that had been built into the system and only challenged significantly within the last 40-50 years, then 'racism' might apply.

Without the power and institutionalization, what looks like racism is not, by definition.

Some years back, James Cone wrote a book, A Black Theology of Liberation, that laid out a lot of clarifying arguments that make pretty good reading. I don't know if it's still in print, but it's a 'goodie.'

excellent points, georgene.... and thanx for the book suggestion...

Just lifted a little from Mr. King, wanted to shake the tree a bit. There's a heck of a lot more to his I have a Dream speech, and more to his oratory than just that, and more to his writings than oratory. Can't get even a little bit of King reflected on one little thread like here.

Any American who doesn't have a reading knowledge of Mr. King's speeches is going about things half-blind to her/his country - and anyone who has not listened to Mr. King, has missed perhaps the best orator in American history.

Take a break and -> Listen. It's not Oscar Peterson, just a tribute to his hymn. Listen to that track on the link, and enjoy.

Barack Obama is great orator also. (Sorry, just had to add that! )

Sigh.

i think i would've been more respectful of the post if it talked about MLK's beginnings during the civil rights battles FROM THE PULPIT OF HIS BLACK CHURCH.... instead, we get the usual....


agreed.... just would like the true speeches posted, u know, the one's that the media hasn't used in some redayumdiculous McDonald's ad....


why should I take time away from listening to the Chemical Brothers, Underworld, Daft Punk, the Orbital?

Mr. King has been bleached and gassed and properly Oreized™ after death by the Advertainment industry to render him palatable and easily-served, in the manner of a Happy Meal™. The reason I like Mr. King is not from this desecration - but rather from something that the Rev. Wright said in his Press Corps speech, which I had the option to read the first time just today (here). That's where Mr. King's message comes to me. It is personal, and human, and direct, and other people's opinions on Mr. King are frankly irrelevant to me. I believe in certain things which he has said that few pay attention to. I consider him one of the greatest Americans in history. I could honestly care less what anyone else has to say about Mr. King.


Just given out - the artist used to post on this board some, and I like her stuff. Hear, or don't - that's cool, too.

is it downloadable to a CD?

Black Church in America....great history, great leaders, spawned great movements, accomplished many spectacular things. But getting back to the religious thread, this does not change the fact that the religious aspect of all this is still delusional.

Hi there,

New member ginger08 checking you out.

Well, in response to the question I am black although I prefer brown because thats actually the color of my skin. I was raised in church with all black people. When people say the black church what they really mean is the place where black people gather on Sunday to praise and worship God.

There really is so such thing as the black church. The neighborhood I grew up in and the schools I attended were 98% black. Back in the day we (black people) could not attend white churches so we remained on our on turf. And nothing much has changed.


Oh, I am a Barack Obama supporter and I hope that's okay, here.