Let me take some pressure off the Mormon for a bit and answer any questions you have about Judaism generally or Reform Judaism specifically. Please note that the standard Jewish disclaimer applies to all answers. That disclaimer is as follows: "No one Jew can speak for all Jews. The opinions of this Jew do not reflect the full range of views of the Jewish community at large, and are not meant as authoritative answers to any question about Judaism or what Jews believe. Our very name, Israel, means "Wrestling with God." Thus, our religion evolves through constant argument and debate."

Any other Jews on this board are, of course, welcome to jump in and take a stab at any questions that are presented here.

Please try to avoid questions that touch on the current Israel-Palestinian conflict, as that's a whole can of worms in itself, and if we start going down that road, that's all we'll end up talking about.

I know very little about Judaism so this thread should be interesting.

In terms of belief and practice what are some differences between Reform Jews and Orthodox Jews?

I have heard that Jews do not believe in Hell or Heaven or in an afterlife. Is this true?

1. That's a really big question, actually. There are a number of different groupings of Orthodox Jews, all of whom have a particular angle on Orthodoxy. The basic tenets of Orthodoxy tend to be that the Torah was literally given by God to Moses on Sinai, and thus all of the commandments and precepts present therein are non-negotiable. Orthodox Jews also study the Talmud, or oral law passed down through Rabbinical tradition, as another central source of Jewish law. Many Orthodox Jews tend to believe that the Earth is literally 5768 years old. All Orthodox Jews keep to the strictest of Kashrut (dietary laws), and take the 613 commandments of Torah as canon law. Many Orthodox Jews dress in traditional style - they're the ones with the black hats, forelocks of hair, and long black suits.

Even within Orthodoxy, there is a diversity of opinion as to canonical law, and thus several sects of Orthodoxy exist. All Orthodox Jews adhere to the Thirteen Principles of Maimonedes (referenced here). Chassids, and Lubavitch Jews, adhere to mysticism and Kabbalah, and tend to venerate the central rabbi, or Rebbe, of their sect, sometimes even declaring him to be the Messiah. For example, the Chabad-Lubavitch community venerates their Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

That's a bit of a really brief overview of Orthodox Judaism.

Reform Judaism split off from Orthodoxy in the 19th century in Germany, during an argument about assimilation within society at large versus preserving traditional values. Reformers believed that to be more accepted within society, Jews must adopt secular customs and dress, and adapt worship services and other traditions to more closely mirror the dominant Protestant ethic. In its early history, Reform Judaism eschewed most things that would identify it with "traditional" Judaism, abandoning the laws of kashrut, the wearing of yarmulkes, even changing the layout of the synagogue. In Orthodox synagogues, the pulpit sat in the middle of the room surrounded by the congregation. In the new Reform temples, the pulpit was moved to the front of the congregation. Hebrew was suppressed, and prayers were said in the colloquial tongue. The Bar Mitzvah was abandoned in favor of a "confirmation" ceremony adapted from the Christians, though it was re-introduced (along with the new Bat Mitzvah for girls) pretty early on. Some other extreme examples: Men would wear top hats instead of yarmulkes, and on Rosh Hashana (the Jewish New Year) when a shofar (ram's horn) is traditionally blown to signal the new year, a trumpet would be blown instead.

As Reform Judaism has evolved over the past century and a half, particularly after it moved to America, there has always been a struggle between those who argue for greater assimilation and those who wish to return to more traditional modes of worship. Recently, I'd say within the past 40 to 50 years, there has been a move to reconcile Reform Judaism with its more traditional roots. Hebrew education is a standard part of Temple school curricula. Services are conducted both in Hebrew and the colloquial tongue. Some Reform Jews keep kosher. Yarmulkes and tallitot (prayer shawls), while still optional, are being worn by a larger portion of Reform Jews.

Reform Jews hold that scripture is divinely inspired, and Reform Jews don't tend to take Biblical history literally. Most Reform Jews accept scientific explanations for the origins of the Universe, evolution, etc. The guiding principle of Reform Judaism is that the individual has to take charge of his or her spiritual growth, and decide for himself or herself what commandments, or mitzvot, are relevant and necessary, and how to apply them. For example, it is up to the individual to decide whether to keep kosher, whether and how stringently to fast on Yom Kippur (the day of Atonement), whether to wear a yarmulke, and, most particularly, what to believe about the nature and existence of God. Reform Jews also study and take inspiration from Judaism's Prophetic traditions.

With regard to God, all Jews accept the Sh'ma as the central tenant of our faith:

"Hear oh Israel, Adonai is our God, Adonai is one."

Adonai is a Hebrew word meaning "God" that is substituted for the "lost" Name of God that hasn't been uttered since the days of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Thus, we are pure Monotheists - there is only one God. Reform Jews have decided to remove gender from the identity of God, because we don't have a definitive answer as to the exact nature of God. Thus, our worship services never refer to God as "He," and all gender-specific language has been removed. We have also adapted certain prayers within the liturgy to be more gender-inclusive.


2. Heaven and Hell. I really can't give you any kind of definitive answer on this, because there is no consensus in Judaism on this topic - I mean, none whatsoever. I guess that's really the definitive answer. Some Jews believe in Heaven and Hell, though what they mean by those concepts may differ widely from Christian norms.

The thing about Judaism is that it's not about punishment versus reward, which is where Heaven and Hell come into play. Jews worship and follow traditions not to gain an eternal reward or avoid an eternal punishment, but rather to connect with the larger community of Jews and our history as a people. We focus on this world, the here and now, because this is what we know for sure exists. One of the fundamental principles of Judaism is Tikkun Olam, repairing the world, so that the next generation can live as well or better than we did.

[quote name='Sinisterblogger' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:03 PM' post='37203']
1. That's a really big question, actually. There are a number of different groupings of Orthodox Jews, all of whom have a particular angle on Orthodoxy. The basic tenets of Orthodoxy tend to be that the Torah was literally given by God to Moses on Sinai, and thus all of the commandments and precepts present therein are non-negotiable. Orthodox Jews also study the Talmud, or oral law passed down through Rabbinical tradition, as another central source of Jewish law. Many Orthodox Jews tend to believe that the Earth is literally 5768 years old. All Orthodox Jews keep to the strictest of Kashrut (dietary laws), and take the 613 commandments of Torah as canon law. Many Orthodox Jews dress in traditional style - they're the ones with the black hats, forelocks of hair, and long black suits......

Mountains of garbage and still crazy after all these years (thanks PS). You don't believe all this crap, do you Sinister?

I'm a Reform Jew. Read on down my post and you'll get an idea of what I believe. Whether you think it's crap is up to you.

Thank you for that, and for the links. Homework

Interesting stuff. I'm not religious, but I am interested in and concerned about religion especially Christianity, which I perceive as a threat. I don't see Judaism in this way. Seems like one of the admirable things about Jews is that they tend to mind their own business when it comes to religion. So I've kind of ignored Judaism and I don't know as much about it as i should. Your post has about doubled my knowledge. Looking forward to more. Thanks!

We mind our own business when other religions let us, basically. We don't believe in trying to convert people to Judaism, because we don't claim a monopoly on "truth." As my Rabbi put it, everyone has a piece of the truth, but no one group can claim to have the whole truth. Doing so is the height of arrogance and actually diminishes the idea of God.

Your Rabbi is right.

Please show some respect for other people's beliefs. Whether or not you believe is not the point here, millions of people believe this "crap". You want people to respect your beliefs, you need to show respect for other people's beliefs.

There are many people who believe things I don't believe, that makes them neither better nor less than me, nor does it make me better or less than them. It just makes us different.

If you are unable to show respect while attacking the argument and not the individual, then maybe you need to not post at all.

Thanks, rottmom. I get the sense that a lot of folks are starting to have "enough" of "enuffalrdy..."

Sorry, Mom but you're wrong. Respect is earned. The initial benefit of the doubt is always granted, but some beliefs deserve respect while others don't. If you claim a leprechaun is living under your house, a response that calls this belief crazy is not inappropriate. There is no value judgement being made here ("better" or "not better"), it's facts v. delusion. If you continue to feel the need to attack me personally, please try to control yourself.

Thanks for another personal attack Sinister, perhaps you might want to get back on topic and defend your position? Sheesh....

Who on earth made you commander of which beliefs deserve respect? All beliefs deserve respect, regardless of how you personally feel about them.

both you guys need to drop it

... now would be a good time

Dropped. Back to the topic at hand...

Its earned, but only if you yourself show respect to others. It doesn't mean you agree, it means you understand that they don't believe what you believe.

You are not going to earn converts by calling everyone who believes differently from you "crazy", "ignorant", "stupid", etc. All you are doing is showing that you have nothing to back up your own beliefs with so you tear down what other people believe to make yourself feel better.

It doesn't work that way. You need to show they why you believe what you believe, and accept that most are still not going to change their minds.

That's the beauty of living in a democracy, no one else can dictate to you what you should believe, nor can you dictate to anyone else that they must believe what you believe. You're gonna be miserable until you learn to accept that little fact.

No, Mom, you're wrong again, respect is earned. The believe, believe comment? What? Please clarify. I'm not trying to make converts. It has nothing to do with my beliefs or that others don't "believe" as I do. It's a matter of pointing out errors, failure to regard facts and just responding to comments. Ideas are crazy, ignorant and stupid, until they are proven not to be such. Again, I am not out to change anyone's mind, just to shine a light on hypocrisy and erroneous statements regarding invisible sky-pixies and iron Age superstitions that are one of the handful of greatest calamities we face as a nation (and world) today. Dictate my beliefs, hardly. People can go on believing what they want, until it negatively impacts me or my family such as school vouchers and countless other harms. Sorry to disappoint, but I am ecstatic. And please stop the personal attacks.

Dropped.

Sorry to butt in on your topic, Sinister, but as a fellow Reform Jew I thought I'd add.

As my Rabbi explained it, there is no idea of Hell in Judaism. For that matter, there is no Devil. There is only one book in the Old Testament that mentions Satan, the Book of Job. He is the adversary, the tempter, the person who tests peoples' faith (like Job). BUT, he is an employee of Yhvh. He does what he does because he serves. He is not in opposition.

Truth be told, there isn't really much idea of Heaven. The Orthodox position is essentially that when you die, you go to sleep in a place of limbo, a kind of underworld called Sheol. There will be a future Day of Judgement. On that day, the righteous will be with Yhvh. The unrighteous will cease to be. No "Hell". BTW, Gentiles will not lose their place in the judgement for not being Jews; they will simply be tested to see if they followed the Noahide Laws. There will be a bodily resurrection, though, so you won't be a spirit angel. You will have a new eternal body on a new, timeless earth. Things will be restored to the way they were in the Garden of Eden, perfect and deathless. Lions will lie down with lambs, and there will be no more violence, neither between animals nor people. I'm not Orthodox myself, but this is what I've been told.

Reform Jews - essentially take an agnostic position on that. BTW, Reform Judaism as I was taught no longer awaits a personal Messiah descended from King David. Instead, they await a Messianic Era, which all people will help to build.

Christians also do not understand that Jews do not agree with the idea of "sin" either. Christians teach you go to hell for "sin". There are "sins" in Judaism - unrighteous actions you are not supposed to do - but the point is they are behaviors. Jews do not believe in "original sin" or the idea that people are inherently sinful. Every person was given free will and free choice to be righteous or unrighteous, but there is no innate tendency in any person to be one way or the other. They must choose. They will reap the rewards of those choices.

BTW, I think the three most misunderstood concepts in Judaism are the importance of the land of Israel (nobody but a fool would claim the religion of Judaism has nothing to do with the land), the Chosen People concept (which is not a doctrine of racial supremacy despite what people claim), and why some Jewish denominations preach against intermarriage. (Many) Reform Jews will perform interfaith weddings. Orthodox Jews will not. And the reason is less a question of the spouse than the children. Orthodox Jews believe the survival of the Jewish people requires the children being raised as Jews, and they fear interfaith couples will raise the children to be Christian, or nothing, or assimilated. And let's face it - this is a more pressing issue for us, because there are only 14 million Jews, as compared to a billion Christians or Muslims.

Jews do not missionize. Unlike Christians, we do not believe in "saving" anybody by preaching to them. Ironically, this reinforces peoples' belief that Jews are insular and snobbish. Although people respect us for not banging on their doors at 7 AM with Talmud in hand, others say we must be so hoity-toity because we make it hard for people to convert. But that is the viewpoint of almost all the denominations; you can convert if you want to but we do not make it easy to do, because that helps prove your sincerity and commitment to the people.

I have always felt, though, that while I understand the religious prohibitions against intermarriage, they have no business influencing the secular laws of the state of Israel regarding marriage.

I think people do not understand that Jewish identity is both religious and ethnic/cultural. This is what makes Jews different from most Christians, except maybe the Mormons or the Amish. I think like those sects there is a sense of peoplehood as well as religious faith. This is hard to explain to people who do not seem to understand it, but Jews feel a fellowship to other Jews, regardless of what religion they PRACTICE (i.e. Buddhism, Scientology, or whatever) ... "Am Yisrael"... there are shared cultural understandings. At least among Ashkenazim and Sephardim, a lot of other shared cultural matters like food, music, art, language, dance, folklife, jokes, etc. A Christian becomes something else if they convert to something else. You remain a Jew, whether you decide to become an atheist, a Christian, a Buddhist, a Bahai, or anything else. Because, in truth, Judaism has really always been more about what you DO than what you BELIEVE. The former has always been more important.

I want to thank you for starting this thread, Sinister. BTW, as is well known, we Jews do not agree with each other on everything, and I'm sure you know the famous adage that if you put 2 Jews in a room you have 3 opinions. (And that's before you bring up Israel.... )

BTW, Enuf, one factoid for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews

A 2003 Harris Poll found that 16% of American Jews go to the synagogue at least once a month, 42% go less frequently but at least once a year, and 42% go less frequently than once a year. The poll also found that 48% of American Jews believe in God, 19% believe there is no God, and 33% are not sure whether or not there is a God (*).[17]

[snip]

Based on many indices of religiosity, including the certainty that there is a 'sky pixie', and regularity of religious observance, American Jews are some of the least religious people in the U.S. Of all religious believers in the U.S., we are the most likely to reject creationism. P.S. among most U.S. religious denominations, American Jews also showed the highest opposition to the Iraq War.

Reform is the major denomination, among the affiliated.

Among those who belong to a synagogue, 38% are members of Reform synagogues, 33% Conservative, 22% Orthodox, 2% Reconstructionist, and 5% other types.

Only the 22% who are Orthodox accept the Torah and other parts of the Old Testament as literally true - although, of course, as I'm sure Viewer or somebody will correct me, even this is a matter of debate between haredi and 'neo' Orthodox.

[snip]

(*) BTW, I'm in that 33% category, personally.

No need to be sorry, Seeker. I'm happy for the input. I'm going to snip a few of your responses and add to them.



Right - "Sin" in Judaism is translated as "missing the mark," like with a bow & arrow. You shoot the arrow at the correct target, but you miss the mark. It's what you do when you miss the mark that matters. Do you correct the shot, or do you miss it again? Ultimately, it's up to you to make that correction (and then atone for it on Yom Kippur).



My Rabbi will not perform intermarriages.



I agree with this wholeheartedly. Judaism is a "peoplehood" more than it is a "religion."



I'm happy to do it - and yes, note the "standard Jewish disclaimer" in my first post.

I was taught that Yom Kippur is not for your everyday sins. You fast to cleanse yourself for sins against G-d, not sins against man. If you commit a sin against a fellow man, like lying to their faces or being disrespectful to your parents, that you need to correct with them. A sin against G-d is something that only you and G-d know you did wrong. Like eating pork when NOBODY is looking. Or praying in silence to Jesus for something. Only G-d would know if you did that.
Fasting is the Jew's way of making peace with G-d.
BTW I'm Conservative.

What's the significance of eating Gefilte Fish after Yom Kippur???

There are a couple of things that I admire about Reform Jews after attending Shabbat services.

1. Women are allowed to be Canters and Rabbis.

2. Lack of proselytizing.

3. Having wine afterward. (That might be a local thing)

Gefilte fish are a customary part of the Ashkenazi cuisine, but there is no religious obligation to eat them.

BTW, it's tradition to eat latkes (potato pancakes) on Hanukah, but there is no commandment to do so, either.

I prefer mine with applesauce rather than sour cream.

A local deli named Corky's used to make some rather great ones. Now to get them I eat at a place called Roasters & Toasters.

Nope. You've hit a big difference between Judaism and Islam.

Wine (Pri Hagafen) is an integral part of most Jewish services.

What that guy said, times a couple.

Look, religion is hard to talk about without getting hot under the collar. If you can't chat about it somewhat serenely, back away 'n' take a breather.

I have a great Reform joke. You want?

Okay, so there's this fellow, not very religious - but has great success in business, done well, and he buys a car.
A nice car.
A Ferrari Testarossa


So, he's a little guilty, so goes to see the Orthodox Rabbi for a blessing for his car.
Rabbi, can you bless my Ferrari Testarossa?

• One question, what's that?
• It's a car, Rabbi. I want you to bless my car.
• You want me to teach you Tefilat HaDerech, you want a blessing for the journey?
• No, Rabbi, I want a blessing for the car. It's expensive, I don't want anything to happen to it?
• You know the part of the Talmud that talks about the blessing of the car, nu?
• No, I don't.
• Me neither, get lost.

So he goes to see the Conservative Rabbi...
You want to hear the rest?

I like the joke so far, though I get the feeling I've heard it before.

Question from me: I sometimes look at stats like this with a jaundiced eye, because it seems to me that "religiousity" is being measured in a manner more informed by Christianity. For instance, Christians have a tendency to measure "religiousity" of a person by their church-attendence.

How is "religiosity" defined by Reform Judaism, or is religiosity much of an issue?

Also tied to this: Does, or how does Reform Judaism define "observance" (e.g. a phrase like so-and-so is an "observant Jew").

This is a good question. I'm not sure the best way to answer it.

The Orthodox position is clear. A good Jew is a Torah observant Jew. The greater the number of the 613 commandments they follow, the better a Jew they are. Now, of course, BTW, out of those 613, some are null and void because they describe Temple rituals, and there is no Temple. Others require an active Levite priesthood, and there isn't one. A third set are anachronistic for other reasons.

The Reform position largely defines itself as the negative of the Orthodox position. That is, Reform Jews are left to decide for themselves what level of observance they want. Some keep kosher. Most don't. Some observe every Sabbath. Most don't. Some observe all the major Jewish holidays; the majority are probably the three-a-year observers (Pesach and High Holy Days). Some things are followed very closely; almost all Reform Jews still circumcise their children. Some wear the tallis and tefillin for all prayers; most don't. The bottom line is Reform Jews largely reject the idea that ritual observance makes you a good Jew. So if that doesn't, what does? Oddly, the general answer is usually a commitment to the prophetic tradition of social justice, and the Tikkun Olam (world improving) that Sinister just referred to, and also involvement in Jewish community life and cultural activities.

Basically, Reform Judaism emerged in Germany out of the Haskala (the Enlightenment as experienced by Jews). The essential focus was on getting Jews out of the shtetl and out of the ghetto and to assimilate into modern life by dropping archaic characteristics that they felt made them unnecessarily apart from their peers. By the way, in the early days, this went overboard, so you can read about early Reform synagogues doing away with Hebrew prayers and putting in organs and other instruments typical of Christian churches in order to "fit in". This is less the case today. Also, at early meetings of the U.S. Reform Rabbinical association, they would deliberately eat shrimp and other foods, almost as if to thumb their nose at orthodoxy. Again, I would argue, maybe especially in the last twenty years, the pendulum is swinging back a bit from that.

Kim's denomination, Conservative Judaism, has tried to cleave the middle path between Orthodoxy and Reform. Viewer might be able to explain the fourth major American denomination, Reconstructionism, to you, better than I can.

Then there's that thing with Moses Mendelssohn's grandbaby.



I know a tiny bit about Conservative and Reconstructionism, though I don't know anyone of the latter. Jewish people I know or have known have either been Conservative or Reform, with all manner of "observance" goin' on. I have found it to be just very personal and individual. Wonder if that's an American thing, too. Not sure.

I wouldn't say it's an American thing actually. It's a traditionally Jewish thing. We tend to not learn from our past, until perhaps now.
Traditionally, Jews identify ourselves as our country first and Jewish last. Egyptians, Russians, Germans, etc. We tend to become highly assimilated in the country we live in. Then some A-hole decides we're not actually part of the country and makes us slaves or tries to kill us all off.
I'd say that here, for the first time in our history, we're trying something different. Trying to NOT forget our past. Trying to stay Jews, at least in our hearts if not in practice. For example, I don't go to services very often. Probably 3 or 4 times a year plus High Holy Days. My kids are old enough that they each went to some Hebrew School this year.
Even though I will probably NEVER go to services as much as my parents, I believe I am Jewish through and through. I will NOT let my kids celebrate Christmas (although I don't tell them the truth about Santa so they don't ruin it for other kids). Everything I do and think, is on some level effected by my Judaism.

I suppose you could eat it anytime, although my family only eats it at Passover.

BTW does everyone know what almost EVERY Jewish holiday is about?

They tried to kill us, we won, lets eat!

Rosh Hashanah...the Jewish New Year......isn't this also a time for a Jewish person to ask forgiveness of people that he/she may have wronged during the past year?

And isn't it Jewish tradition to make three attempts at forgiveness?

Two days, ten days apart.

Rosh Hashanah is the New Year.

Yom Kippur follows ten days later. That's the Day of Atonement.

In the past, Yom Kippur was the day when the High Priest went into the Temple and sent away a scapegoat to remove the sins of the people. Alas, there's no Temple anymore.

On the Day of Atonement, you do ask for forgiveness and to be written into the book of life for another year. But as was previously said, if your sins are against other people, you can't just ask for it; you have to atone by making it up to that person.

And a 24 hour period of no food, no personal pleasure, no bathing, no work...is part of that atonement???

Yes, Yom Kippur is a day of fasting, prayer, and austerity.

Should start by saying that I grew up in the Jersey burbs, where pretty much everyone is Italian, Jewish, or some combo thereof (my grade school was even closed on Jewish Holidays :-) I know many Jews, some of whom are family by marriage. Most supported Hillary, but are coming around to Obama, because first and foremost, they are Democrats with a capital D.

Two questions:

1) Been hearing lots of talk in the media about how McCain could capture "The Jewish Vote" (like it was one guy :-). Like I said, that is definitely not true around here, but what is your take on that? Are there really any Jews who don't get that the Republican Agenda is not "Peace and Prosperity in the Middle East" but "Rape and Pillage the Middle East to Steal the Oil and Boost the Earnings of War Profiteers and if That Compromises Israeli Security, Who Cares?"

2) I am curious as to your personal feelings about Bush's "Appeasement" stunt at the Knesset? (My Jewish Goombahs were not happy about that shameful episode. Not happy at all.)

"They tried to kill us; we survived; let's eat!"

LOL! I didn't even see that you had posted that at the bottom of your thing!

1) The "Jewish Vote" is not monolithic, although it does tend to average about 70-80% Democratic. This election will be no different. I believe Obama will be able to overcome the smears against him and get at least Kerry's Jewish vote tally, which was about 75%.

2) I thought it was offensive and crass. You don't bring up the Holocaust for political reasons. You just don't.

That's not a bad answer, but I would add a few things. As a Reform Jew, I find that part of my "observance" is the idea that to a large degree I am responsible for my own spiritual development, and it's up to me to figure out whether to keep kosher or wear a yarmulke. The act of deciding whether to do these things, and figuring out how to integrate Jewish tradition into my everyday life, is a deeply spiritual process. Being observant isn't all about following commandments - it's about figuring out how to live Jewishly in your own life.

Good decent people don't.

Actually, that's Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, which happens 10 days after Rosh Hashanah. And yes, there is a Jewish tradition of asking forgiveness three times. If after the third time, forgiveness is not received, then you are relieved of your burden to ask forgiveneess.

Well, as far as South Florida Jews, there are a lot of them that are stupid and misinformed. I've been trying to convince them that despite the crap they have gotten from the so called "Republican Jewish Coalition" (I get stuff from them all the time, I always return it to them with the message "Turkeys Don't Vote for Thanksgiving") and the bullshit Joe Lieberman told them in his speaking tour of local synagogues, McCain is not the better choice. McCain says he wants this to be a Christian nation. Obama is who they should be voting for and I've told them to read Robert Wexler, who corrects a lot of the disinfo they've been hearing.

The split among Jewish voters was about 55-45 initially in the Clinton-Obama match-up. However, Sinister was correct, Jews vote for the Democrat around 75-85% of the time, and that's going to be about the same this time in November, I predict. Most will vote for Obama.

The Republicans claim they are the better party for Israel; I always remind the RJC idiots it was James Baker who told the Jews to go F themselves, that Bush Sr. had Eastern European ex-Nazis running his campaign (I don't even go back to Prescott), and that it was none other than Kissinger that fucked Israel in 1973, and hard. Plus it was Reagan who was going to sell AWACs to the Saudis.



It was bullshit, but the current Israeli attitude is not to bite the hand feeding them. They love Bush because unlike his dad, he just seems to loooove them. The question is, like Hagee, is it perverted love? Whatever, Israel needs regime change too. Kadima is just rewarmed Likud and doesn't seem to be any better for the appetite.

The sad thing is that I had real hope for Kadima until Sharon was struck down. Sharon seemed to have finally come to his senses and made some hard choices about withdrawing from the occupied territories, and had a lot of former hardliners, moderates, and liberals behind him. It's kind of sad that Olmert has been so bloody inept.

However, as I said, I want to try to keep this discussion away from the Israel-Palestine conflict...

You're right, and sorry, the inevitable potential for thread derailment always follows.

BTW, though, I would like to introduce folks reading this thread to a great resource:

The Religious Action Center for Reform Judaism
http://rac.org/index.cfm?

I think it's a great group, and as you can see, their current foci are health care for all, climate change, and other progressive issues.

It's a good resource to get legislative updates from, even if you're not Jewish.

Oy vey! So that's where we stand? Inept leadership on both sides? Yeah, yeah, OK, on our side we have inept AND criminal leadership (and I concur that the Hagee & Parsley Armageddon show is the scariest thing I've seen since this election cycle began.)

Thanks for the enlightenment, my Jewish compadres... now I am off to the local Kosher Deli to get a nice homemade kugel for dessert.