Following are common mistakes made by theists when dialoguing with atheists.

Labeling Atheists
Some Christians have labeled atheists as evil, stupid, devil-worshippers, or morally void. Though there may be some atheists who fit these categories (as would many in the general population), atheists are not categorically evil, stupid, devil-worshipping, degenerates with no morals. Many of them are fine citizens, honest, caring, loving, and patient. For a Christian, or anyone for that matter, to make a blanket statement about atheists in a derogatory manner is wrong. It is the same thing atheists sometimes do when they accuse Christians of being irrational, psychotic, or stupid. Such accusations have no place on either side of the argument of truth.

Generally speaking, atheists are not stupid. Many of them have thought through their position over a long period of time and arrive at conclusions after much thought. Some were raised in religious homes, have seen what religion has to offer, and have rejected it. Of course, I think that atheists have drawn incorrect conclusions about God, but it doesn't mean they are dumb. Some atheists have presented very cogent arguments against the existence of God, which need to be respectfully addressed.

So, just because someone believes in God and encounters someone who doesn't, that does not mean that either side is stupid. Labeling and name-calling have no place in the discussion.

Ignoring Atheists' Questions
If you were standing on a railroad track and a train was heading your way, closing your eyes and ignoring the locomotive will not make it go away. If an atheist asks a question and you ignore it repeatedly, it would be fair for him to conclude you were incapable of answering the objection. Of course, this does not mean you have to always answer everything because dialogue flows both ways. But, it is important that you face issues. If you don't have an answer, admit it. That's okay. It doesn't mean you are wrong. It means you don't have an answer.

Stating that Atheism is a religion
Atheists will repeatedly tell you that they are not in a religion. A religion almost always is defined to include belief in a deity of some sort. Atheism is non-belief in a deity. It isn't necessarily a "belief that there is no God," (though it can be)but is "not believing either way."

To label an atheist as a religious person is to put up a roadblock to effective communication. It would be like someone saying to a Christian, "You believe in a mean, tyrannical being who likes to torture people." The Christian would simply roll his eyes and think that the person doesn't know what he's talking about. So, how much effective conversation could there be in either instance? Not much.

Stating unsupportable facts
No one has all documentation for everything they say. It is not reasonable to require proof from an atheist on everything said. Nevertheless, if you are going to state a fact or two, it is good to have the documentation at the tip of your tongue -- at least occasionally, of have access to it. It adds to your credibility. Of course, you don't have to document everything, but if you have some illustrious fact to use, try and have it documented.

Never admitting when you are wrong
Pride is a harmful thing. It caused the fall. It ruins marriages. It leads to anger and self-righteousness. It has no place in the Christian's life. Never admitting you are wrong is being prideful. If an atheist, or anyone, proves you wrong on something, be kind and courteous. Admit you made a mistake and go on. Everyone makes mistakes, even atheists. There is nothing wrong with admitting an error. It no more proves you are wrong about Christianity than being wrong about the color of a boat means boats don't exist. But, if you never admit when you are wrong, you will not be able to convince anyone in a discussion of your position. You will simply lose the respect of the one with whom you are debating.

I have a lot of Christian family members. It doesn't matter how many times I tell them, they still believe that Atheist = devil worshipers. If you don't believe in god, then it would be hard to believe in the devil?!?!?!?!?

Adam and Eve had two sons, Caine and Able, Caine killed Able, so where did we come from?

PS I know the answer, I just want to hear you explanation, and not to start a fight or anything, it's just a fun question...

I've thought about that one, too. Yes, it can be a fun question....in a taboo sort of way!

I've encountered that, too.

BLJ--My good friend is a pastor, Yale Divinty School, 3rd generation, and I asked him that and he laughed out loud. He said that's the most asked question by agnostics and atheists. The answer he gave was a passage from the Bible--

"And Caine went to a far off land where there he knew his wife..."

Wow, what a loophole, was she in a different Garden of Eden? Who made her? How many ribs does she have?

Have fun, Tap

I read that while studying literature in college. I wish I knew the exact verse, book, etc. I would love to pull out my bible... dust it off and show some of my wacked out family member the passage and ask the same questions you just stated.

KM--Yeah my friend always loved it when I teased him about the major loophole in the Bible, the best thing is to use on those pesky Jehovahs Witnesses. I've had them come by the ranch and try to recruit me, and I just tell 'em straight off, I'm an atheist. Thanks for stopping by, but you'll have no luck here. Works everytime, and it's fun to see the look on their faces.

(I'm not a full blown atheist, but I do like to dabble)

Hi, Tap.

My geography is not very good (you should see me trying to make my way home after work), frankly I get very confused with all of the weird names in Genesis (I'm doing good if I can remember my own last name), and my degree is not in anatomy (how many ribs are we supposed to have anyway?), so I'm afraid I'm not much help with this one. But it is a good question!

Hope your Monday is off to a good start!

BLJ--Yeah I know, but it's all good, if not for the puppies shitting on the floor 3 minutes after I take them out, but hey, they're puppies, it's what they do!!!

I like to bring up the part about the Earth being the center of the universe and the sun revolving around us. Some "perfect" word of god?!?!?!?! I can't look at the beauty of the our world... the magnitude of our universe... or the miracle I see when I look into my infant son's eyes and not think that there is a higher power and purpose. I am agnostic.... but I see the atheist point of view. Religion was born out of human arrogance.

An engineer that I worked with said to me, "There are no accidental products... that everything that goes out the door at our company was designed." I conceed that point, but I took it a step further. "Once we design a product, we don't snap our fingers and the product appears out of thin air... There is a process that has to be followed to create the product... to bring the design to life." God may have designed exsistence, but evolution was the process to brought his/her design to life. Maybe god set up the laws of physics and let the chips fall where they may.

KM--Well we know that God lives somewhere outside of our cosmos, or I would think we would've run into him/her/it. We have here in ILL a guy named Robert Sherman who has made a name for himself as an offending atheist. He has a radio show with I think 13 listeners and is vilified at every turn, but he's right on a lot of things concerning the separation of church and state, and that's his main point. It's not so much his beliefs, it's the permeation of christianity into public schools that he is against. I have to admit I agree with him, though at first I thought he was nuts for even trying. You can google his name and you'll find a heep of stuff on him. His daughter helped overturn the crazy prayer time that was passed for school children. I prefer to rely on myself, it's all I've ever known having come from a mixed religion family, Jewish/Presbyterian, and I'm adopted, go figure. My dad's P's didn't even show up their wedding because my mom is not Jewish, nice huh?

I'll have to check him out. I need some new material to use....

It doesn't matter what I say though. The right has effectively made the case that people should not trust the media. The always say, "for every article you find pro something, you can find just as many on the con position." They are skeptical of everything that doesn't agree with what the believe to be true. It doesn't nothing to shake their faith. I also blame tabloid media as well for making people unable to believe the news. The show entertainment tonight every day.... right after the "real" news.... as if it is equally important or real news. And a lot times, what the tabs say isn't true and helps to add credibility to argument that people can't trust the news. I know that a lot of times we can't trust them, the build up to Iraq is a perfect example. But the biggest problem is not the news is inaccurate, but that they just don't report the news to begin with.

Depends on who is telling the story.

First, Who says Adam and Eve only had two children?

Second, What about the giants?

Giants? I put them in the category of talking snakes.... raising people from the dead.... surviving being in the belly of a whale.... people turning to stone.... etc etc etc.... i could go on all day!

I got that from some literature JW's dropped off. They cited that Cain and Able had brothers and sisters. Therefore they had wives from their sisters. I thought this was an interesting pro-incest argument.


http://www.thedevilspanties.com/

KM-- LOL, yeah, they embrace the MSM when it suits their purpose, and reject it when it doesn't. Sounds fickle to me, hypocritical at best. The freaky thing is that they talk as if we are the dissidents and not them. When I say dissident, I mean in education of sound science. They would rather believe Essops fables rather than Carl Sagan.


BTW-- How is Kayden? I feel bad for not asking sooner. I always say to my wife, I love the babies, they are the most fun we will ever have.

DISCLAIMER: My frame, in the interest of full disclosure.
(1) In the observable universe, science does a pretty good job. No argument with the scientific process
(2) Good science never produces absolute truth; rather it produces theory, more or less validated by prediction
(3) There might be more to "everything that exists" than is included in the observable universe
(4) Science doesn't help to decide #3
(5) "Logic" isn't infallible - disagreement exists about the truth of axioms and even which "rules of inference" are valid

So the point of this is lots of stuff is "unknowable" from an absolute truth point of view. Much stuff in the observable world is unknowable with a strict interpretation, and much stuff in the unobservable world with a looser interpretation. So, IMO, we should view our own "knowledge" with a certain humility, and that of others with a certain respect. Possibly our and others' knowledge has similar value, and truth content.

Seems to me that a lot of the mistakes Christians make when dialoguing with atheists, or vice versa, are at the level of:
(1) More certainty about what they "know" than is warranted
(2) An unwillingness to reexamine the validity of what one "knows"
(3) An intent to convert the other to the "truth" of what one party knows
(4) A resistance to being open to the other's truth because of what someone knows

Incest has been commonplace at various times throughout human history.
Why wouldn't it have occurred with the very first people (assuming the literal Adam & Eve story is true), if there were no other options at the time?

It doesn't make it morally right many generations later (when there are billions of human beings to choose a mate from).

My little dude is absolutely wonderful! He's almost 8 months and the past month has been filled with milestones. Rolling over.... cutting teeth.... sitting up. They grow up too fast! He's my one and only. I had a rough pregnancy... he was almost born at 29 weeks. I went on bed rest and was able to keep him in there until 35 weeks. I can't go through bed rest again.... besides.... Realistically I don't even have a chance to bring a baby to full term. I can't risk having an extremely premature baby. I'll adopt one if I feel that I have to have another one. A beautiful black baby.... that would drive my in laws absolutely crazy. They throw the N word around like it's 1952....

How many children do you have?

KM--Wow, what a story, glad to see everything turned out ok. I have one son, on his mother's side, Thai/Jamaican Me--Irish, English, German, Native American. He is 22 and a good kid. Been through a lot, but came out smiling, I guess he get's that from both of his P's. He was an 'Oop's Baby' and we made it work.

Your in-laws need a lesson in humanity. My P's were at first stand offish, but they came around. Babies have a tendancy to do that. I wish you all the happiness in the world, or should I say, both of you. You are America and what it was designed to be. I also have 2 step son's who are amazing to me. They are good people, work hard and love both of their parents. A great testament, in contrast to their own families views of racism, which is not very nice.

"Then at the east side of the garden <of Eden> he <The Lord God> put living creatures <or Cherubim> and a flaming sword which turned in all directions. This was to keep anyone from coming near the tree that gives life." Genesis 3:24


"When mankind had spread all over the world, and girls were being born, some of the supernatural beings <or sons of God; or sons of Heaven> saw that these girls were beautiful, so they took the ones they liked.... In those days, and even later, there were giants <or Nephilim> on the earth who were descendants of human women and the supernatural beings. They were the great heroes and famous men of long ago." Genesis 6:1-4

Visionari---Thus the Island of Lesbos

That's awesome that he has so many different cultures that he can learn about and identify with. I come from a long line of bastards.... my great great paternal grandmother had two son's and was never married. She was either a whore or a kept woman of a married man. I think that joke is hillarious, but the rest of my family doesn't think it's so funny. To be honest... I wasn't planning on ever having children... the world is too messed up and I didn't want to bring a child into this mess. Then I read an article that conservatives were having 5 babies to every 1 liberal baby.... I became even more scared for the future of this world. I decided to take one for the team and have me a little liberal to carry on the torch.

KM-- you'll be ok, and Kayden too. This world is about to take a BIG change in course. Obama offers us the chance to hope for a better future, let alone the the truth when it it matters, and more of the truth when it doesn't. So we all have a stake in our future, but we can all make difference. I say we make a difference. For all of us, but mostly the children.

I have to go feed now, so don't take offense if I don't respond right away.

Lilith was Adam's first wife. So maybe they had children before there was Eve.

Also....

Later Cain went to the land of Nod to find a wife. Where did this wife come from??

I think what pisses me off the most is that in this country we atheists are regarded as evil and out to abolish theism.

We cannot change people's beliefs. If you think an atheist converted you, you are wrong. It was your choice. He/she may have help stimulate your questioning of your faith, but we do not convert.

Atheism is NOT a religion. We have no doctrine/dogma to follow or adhere to. We simply do not believe in any power higher than humanity. This is our stance do to a lack of evidence of such.

I also suspect and propose that there are millions more of us out there hiding behind organized religion because of the social nonacceptance (especially in the US) loss of job, family/friend/public persecution. The US is HIGHLY intolerant of us. If you don't believe me, go public with atheistic views regarding "no gods". A Christian can openly discuss their belief in Jesus without any or no repercussion, but if an atheist openly proclaim their godllessness, he/she will be called "Satanist", "Demon", "Witch", "Pagan" or some other inaccurate label.

Christianity in the US is a very arrogant religion, probably due to it being the majority. As time marches on and as diversity grows in the US, Christianity may become a minority religion. How arrogant will they be then?

Islamic beliefs, doctrine, and dogma are just as dangerous, arrogant and hypocritical as Christianity. They are both "killers for God"...as history has proven over and over and over again.

Judaism...like most religions has extremists, but they are not out to conquer the world or invade unless coerced by a country like the US. Israel has become like the US and has become warlike in their quest to reclaim their "Holy Land". If your God made your world, who are you to say who owns it?

All the above religions "cherrypick" from their scriptures to justify death, murder and sickness.
With the billions of members/believers in the above religions, you would think there would be more peace, less sickness, a few proven, actual miracles, and proof of a supreme being. You cannot "move mountains" or even "heal the sick".
The only thing that these major religions have proven is that it is more deadly than humane.

My views are harsh, broad, opinionated, and lack tact, but right now there are over 26,00 children dying everyday from starvation while the "religious" in the US are self-centered, obese, greedy and so unlike their prophets/Lords, etc. Of course there are exceptions, but overall, that's how I view them. Others may not agree.

Atheists are not perfect and NEVER will be, but we have to take responsibility for our OWN actions, without blaming the devil, etc.

Hey, throw them a knuckleball -

Tell 'em that Chapterization was done a thousand years after the New Testament - and versification in the 1400's. BY the French, no less.

So when they tell you "John 3:16" tell 'em that Jesus didn't start his parables off with "36" It's as theologically fundamental as page numbers. If someone's a true Bible Worshiper, that'll put'em off the rails.

Actually, nobody quite knows what the heck "nephilim" means anymore. Tells you something about how seriously people were making this stuff - they just forgot?

I don't get it??

That's one thing that really takes me aback when I talk to christians is their lack of apathy for the less fortunate. They talk about how people need to take care of themselves and that no one helped them, besides jesus, so why should they help anyone else. There is absolutely no hope at all that the world could be a better place. I find myself feeling sorry for them, because if I felt the way they did, I would have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning.

There are 80 million evangelicals in this country and they are always whining about how they are under "attack." They have the numbers on their side. I feel that I am an objective person and I just don't see it. This frenzy to preserve their rights is an excuse to stomp everyone else's rights. I am more afraid of loosing my rights to them, than I am of being killed in a terrorist attack. They always forget OK City bombing was pulled off by christians with an agenda.

When they say "John 3:16" they mean "Book of John, Chapter 3, Verse 16" The Chapter 'n' Verse assignments weren't part of the original bible - they were added on over a thousand years ago.

Since many Biblethumpers don't know WHAT they believe, telling them that God did not divide the Bible into Chapter and Verse will drive them mad.

Ah... I can't even get them to accept that god "wasn't in the room" during the coucil of niccea (i think i spelled that right, but i'm too tired to look it up) so i am going to pass on the hair splitting..... never thought to go there.... It's fine to try to get the goats of faceless internet users.... but if i said that to my family, then it would only serve to shut down the conversation.... I want them to hear me.

That is unbelievably sad. They allegedly believe in a fellow named Jesus Christ, who lived only for the less fortunate, and said - go and do likewise.

He's lucky he didn't come in the modern times. We would have waterboarded him.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi

Amen

And of course since Adam and Eve were perfect creations of a perfect God there were no recessive genetic traits to worry about yet. That evolved later. No, wait.......

i go through the same thing, i think both sides punch eachother to hard to have an understanding of eachother.

there are countless people who are givin food and clothes by christians. we must remembber the true followers are not hammering others but helping others. unfortunitly there doesnt seem to be many of them.

That is true in some ways.... However, 80% of the money that the church collects, goes to paying for their facilities and wages of church employees. That is not exactly what I would call an efficient way to help out our fellow man. Especially when you think about that there are a billion people that live on a dollar per day.... 2 billion live on $2.

They only want to help the people that they deam worthy.... they place personal judgements on people. Some of the things that come out of mouths of some of the christians that I know about poor people is truly shocking. There is a movement, especially in the "mega" churchs, that teaches ways to receive personal wealth. That if you do what the bible says, then the lord will reward then financially. They have begun to covet wealth and material things more than anything.... more than charity.

Sounds like a seminar.

Did you mean to say that, "...they believed in an alleged fellow..." You know, the mythological godman who did not actually live at all (let alone for the less fortunate) and who therefore said nothing?

i think most would say he lived. not all would call him god.

I don't think the evidence for his existence is all that great. But in practical terms I don't think it matters. If folks can believe in virgin births and people being raised from the dead and other miracles for which there is no evidence why should they need evidence to support their belief that Christ actually lived?

good point. i have always heard that the other two majors also beleived the jesus the man lived, they just believed him to be differant things. but i agree with you line of thought.

You mean Gandhi? No, I'm actually somewhat sure that he was alive, although, come to think of it, I have no proof....

check youtube

Or see, Empire, British, India, Noted Pains in the Ass for Colonial Administration. They probably have photos and firsthand eyewitness accounts.