a. Most educated and intelligent adults, who see religion for what it is, an organized man made method of controlling the masses while siphoning off their resources at the same time, without having to do anything for it...often make the mistake of dealing with these "believers" as if they are gigantic morons...not all of them are.

Many are, of course, especially the ones that believe literally what the King James Bible says or the ones that believe the Old Testament or the ones that believe the Koran, just a few examples (maybe the nuttiest are Mormons, but they are all nutty to be fair)...

Now, I am unfortunately afflicted with brain washing that was done to me since I was born, having been baptized in the Catholic church at the ripe age of 1 month old, and attending Catholic school for 12 yrs, etc. Not to mention the 1983 experience when I thought Pat Robertson saved me from my demons... So I am nobody to talk, while I know in my gut that George Carlin is right when he says it is all bullshit, gigantic heaping piles of bullshit like when he said this:

"If God had intended us not to masturbate he would've made our arms shorter”
oops, that is the wrong one...sorry

Anyway, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

that is how I look at it...

I am an asshole you say! You would be right, I am offensive often, but I tell you what, show me one bit of evidence, one thing over the past 2000 yrs that remotely comes close to proving this divine being, and I will shut up...

(still waiting for someone to tell me what happens to the 2 billion, 345 million, 272 thousand, 153 people who lived and died over the past 2000 yrs never having the new testament preached to them, do they all go to hell?)

The advice is as reasonable as any in speaking with people who have dogmatic axioms different from one's own.

Their purpose is usually to cause you to change your beliefs to match their own. Rarely, is it an open exchange of ideas.

The most important question to ask anyone like this is - "do you have do suppress your own reason, logic and individuality to believe what you do?"

Unfortunately, many religious types in America have embraced a Dark Ages belief system which opposes science, reason, and logic. This is not necessary - in fact, I believe that it is anti-religious in nature.

Look for that question with any "born-agains."

They may intend to change my beliefs, but since I believe in keeping an open mind and finding what truth I can in all things I usually have more of an enlightening discussion than they bargained for waiting in store. An old favorite is to wait for the Jehovah's Witnesses to critique the Catholics' placement of Mary in such high esteem (they often go for Catholic baiting since I'm brown and all) and counter with asking what they believe about the evolution of that Catholic belief from the previous high esteem placed on the role of women in Goddess oriented religions. It's a real show stopper. They rarely see that one coming.

Then ask them why the Holy Koran has a chapter devoted to Mary, mother of Jesus. Shake their tree.

I agree with you Randys,...

Not all believers are morons in the sense that you and I would define a moron to be.
If you look at the leadership of some of these organized religions, they are highly motivated, charismatic people – who are not morons at all. I believe them to be quite cunning and smart. I believe that the leadership of the mormons is a good example. I believe that the only grappling with their dogma they ever do is how to better package and sell it to the fools, who willingly give up their critical thinking to become one of the flock. (These are the one’s who take the Bible and other such books as literal.)

I am an exmormon - exmo for short, I was a strong member until age 20, and have had several near relapses back into the cult. I commiserate with you in being excatholic and ex whatever Pat Robinsons religion is.
It has taken me years of study to break the grip of their indoctrination.

Zealots of these religions are the ones I get real tired of.
They don't respect you if you believe in something else - regardless of whether your belief is grounded in fact. In dialog with them you will find they are not interested in an honest exchange of ideas or discussion; they are only interested in getting you to join, to become one of them. Question their dogma and you become their enemy. Express your own beliefs and they will belittle you, and show you where you are wrong.
An example found here on this forum is justamere10 who has posted exclusively in Ask a Mormon in the religion forum. link
He starts the OP with the premise that he is volunteering to answer question about Mormonism.
Yet mostly, imo, he continually obfuscated and ultimately proselytized and preached.
Like other religious fundamentalist, they are not honest in dialog. Their goal is to recruit new members.
BTW he is a mormon Cyber Missonary

Check this link to read justamere10's motivations - its written by him





As for George Carlin and religion – he nailed.

Or the evolution of Quan Yin from a happy fat man to a mother with child after Christian missionaries made their way into China? Oh yeah, even if they have practiced for that discussion they aren't prepared to go into it in any depth lest they expose themself as a 'questioner of the faith' in front of those apprentice door-knockers they tend to travel around with.

i think it is not accurate to say most educated people dont believe in religion. look at the states, most people have faith of some sort. would you call obama not smart enough to see the folly? how about carter? just because we dont understand what give these people such belief does not make them idiots.

The side of the mind that goes to philosophy can be rational. This is the aspect which encompasses faith. Having faith is not a sign of ignorance - nor is it a bulwark against ignorance.

thanks! thats what i wanted to say, but lack the skills.

you didnt read my post, i said people dont have to be idiots to believe this garbage, I believe some of it deep inside me somewhere and I am not an idiot...

intellect and maturity are hard fought for gifts that some find along the way, when we find these or bits of them we must question the childish ideas life has burdened us with...

aware of him, unless he breaks a rule he will be able to post...picked a bad place to do it in, most of us have an independent intellect that would make his job very difficult

you said most see it for what you believe it is. I dont think your view is carters. thats all.

The only mistake that's made when talking to religious folks, is talking to religious folks.

Say rhodie! What's DX?

I just my opinion.... but I think that people like Obama are christian because they know that they have to be to get elected. It's a shame that we have to hide who we are. I read an article a while back and it stated that American would vote for a gay person, before they would an atheist or agnostic....

DX stands for D-Generation X. It's an old pro wrestling gimmick.

sad but true...i still dont believe hillary believes half the shit she said, but said it to get the middle roaders to vote for her

she is too smart and educated and sophisiticated to believe some of that nonsense, or to go along with bush on the war, but had to in her mind...sadly, our electorate is ignorant and our politicians are whores, all of them

When I speak to my father... I say crap like, "well god bless her" or "praise the lord".... I want to be true to my beliefs, but I know that he would lay awake at night if he thought that I wasn't a christian, worried about my eternal soul.... and I would have to endure even more lectures.... I just don't want to break his heart completely.

I don't know about Hillary, but I think that Obama's religious faith is sincere and pretty much as described. I don't like it particularly, but I don't think he's lying about it and especially considering all the Muslim slurs and innuendos flung his way he probably needs to keep his Christian beliefs in the public eye more than most politicians would.

The part I don't get is this... to be a believer, you have to remove your common sense, and replace it with bull crap. I will be the first to admit that I am pretty rotten, but try to be good. Secondly, I grew up going to church, my grandmother telling me about Jesus, and so my relationship started at a young age. It is a relationship, interactive to a degree, quite subtle at first and long lasting. I used to be a believer, and I did not buy into everyone's bull crap that came along.

I love people going door to door talking about Christ, some of them I have blown their minds, had them begging for the next word of practical application. It is one thing to preach about something we know nothing about, it's another when a preacher understands the words on the page.

God is love, if you can grasp that you are more than half way there. Don't hurt anyone on purpose and you are 3/4 of the way there. Talk to him or her as if they were your friend on a daily basis, you might be put in a straight jacket if they can catch ya... lol. When you do it long enough, and ask the right question, you wont be a believer anymore. You will know. And that is just the beginning.

So if you want to be an Agnostic, or an Atheist, that is your call. God gave us the right to choose, and who am I to tell someone what to think. Just don't tell people you figured everything out, when it is not possible in this reality. Anyone with half a brain will know that you are pulling your opinion right out of your ass! It is just simply convenient to say that God does not exist, so we can all look soooo much more intelligent.

Bill Maher is the best, he put Jesus on a Dinosaur and I was on the floor gasping for air . He does not know, and says so. I totally respect that. That is totally cool. What is not cool is playing father Flanagan butt raping boys. Then the cardinal baloney covers it all up so it happens over and over. That is not religion, that is reality and criminal.

So let us not mix apples and oranges, let us use our brains to figure out life. Let us help one another and try to be the best humans we can be. War sucks, love rules. This comes from someone that removed miles of non skid from Navy vessels, and got my ass kicked in many a dojo.

Thanks! It's good ta learn something new everyday!!

I've seen religion do good things for people, and seen it do things not so good. The basic premise of many religious beliefs seems to me to be to comfort the fear of the unknown, mainly the fear of death. Give people something to believe in that deals with that fear, and you control them.

But there is no more to fear from death than anything else. All who have ever lived have physically died. It is the natural order of things. What lies beyond death? If there is some sort of consciousness after physical death, then we will perhaps find out. If death is merely death, with nothing beyond, we'll never know the difference.

It seems that so much of culture and society is rooted in fear. Fear of terrorists, fear of no money, no sex, no whatever. We've seen how religion uses it, how governments use it, how individuals use it. To believe in something intangible to ease your fears of the unknown does nothing to conquer the fear itself. It is the fear that should be dealt with, instead of wrapped up in holy scripture.

So when I talk to 'religious folk', I listen for any underlying fear in their words. Sadly, all too often , even with the ones who are so adamantly happy in their faith, the fear shows. Don't get me wrong. I'm not immune to fear. But I cannot use religion to sugar-coat that fear. To me, that just makes it worse. So I try to be patient with religious folk. Some won't allow it. I've walked away from a few to be sure. But for me, there is no reason to argue with them. They can believe what they will. They can shout it from the rooftops, but it doesn't mean I have to listen. They can condemn me all they want to, it doesn't matter. There are those that must 'witness' to others, must try and convince others. Convert others. But don't let their zeal fool you. The persons they are trying to convince the most are themselves.

I'm not at all worried about his presence here on the forum. He does serve as an example.
Why couldn't he be honest about why he posts here?

Very well put. Fear can be very powerful. One of my favorite lines from Frank Herbert's Dune is "Fear is the mind killer". Using fear is one of the greatest tools in politics as well as religion, to control people.
Randi talks of it's use by neocons often. What if you replaced religion with politics in what you wrote above? It would be just as true, wouldn't it? Fun how that works.

Just my opinion, but I think most believe in the doctrine more than the god itself.

So true....

For some people, maybe a lot of people, I think religion is a comfortable habit stemming from upbringing and culture rather than from deep faith and conviction.

And even more so, it is a soothing balm for people irritated by the parts of reality that they wish were not so. If religion was the only means by which people deny reality, I sure could agree with wiping it off the planet. But narcissistic self-soothing is an element of EVERY belief system which does not insist upon the ruthless understanding of reality through reason. Most belief systems - e.g. the Project for the New American Century - runs upon self-soothing masturbatory bullshit, IMHO.

I find that truly religious people are more reserved about there faith whether if they are intimidated or just secure in their beliefs they don't tend to preach it to everyone they see. Those who need to validate that what they are believing is true are the ones who tend to be more outspoken and at times obnoxious about their faith.

Wait just a minute. You mean self-soothing masturbatory bullshit was out there before I came up with it? Are you telling me it's actually been around for a while? That's just great. And I was thinking I was gonna cash in on that concept. I was gonna have a site and downloads and everything. Crap.

Sorry, dude. The website's already out there. Plenty of downloads, too. Link. Close one eye or else they might suck in your soul.

Oh GOD, I'll never be able to sleep now.

I appreciate such people as you describe, who are not out to convert you.
One influential person in my life was just this kind of person, they lived a life of example. Political and religious dialogs with him seemed to go on for weeks. He alway seemed to have more questions than answers. Never once do I recall him pushing a philosophy or concept. He never had a desire to convert anyone to his beliefs.

I've always believed you don't have to be a religious person to be a nice person.

and isnt it funny how people are drawn to that. if only all could learn from this in all aspects of life. religion/politics/ business.....

I'm intensely curious...so what you're saying is, Jesus' disciples, having just seen the guy they thought would be king of the earth tortured and killed, then ran away like little babies, decided to become CIA ninjas and broke into the tomb stealing Jesus' body under the noses of a roman guard, (that faced the death penalty for falling asleep,) then told everyone that He had ressurrected Himself so that they could spend the rest of their lives spreading a message that they KNEW was a lie, but still all held on even theough they themselves faced certain persecution and death. a lie that they held onto even when people were feeding them to lions, throwing rocks at, and nailing to trees...they did all this...so that they could control people and take their money? that is what you're saying?

Better a live asshole than a dead believer, I say!


Wait. What?

Most historian believe that it wasn't decided that jesus was divine after Constantine converted the roman empire to christianity. It was actually decided during the council of Ephesus in 431 A.D.

People have died for less. Just because some nuts who we can't even be sure existed died for it still doesn't make it true.

Take the Haley's Comet nuts. If your gauge for veracity is the number of people who died for a belief then I'm sure you'd agree there really is a celestial space ship just behind Haley's Comet and all those Heaven's Gate people are living happy in space and weren't just insane.

most historians? who are these historians? do these historians have brains? christianity goes nowhere if Jesus isn't God. Christianity never starts if Jesus isn't God. it's the cornerstone of the entire philosophy. all of the gospels were written before that. i doubt that any seriously credible historian says this. i want names. even going by this constantine business the nicean creed was crafted in 325, more than a hundred years before.



well of course people have died for less. i think you mean died for more, and what more could be died for?

the heaven's gate people died during the hale-bopp comet, and every single one of the died nice and quietly, not a single one was tortured, and they all believed it on blind faith. i'm saying that the apostles (or whatever people you seem to think stated christianity,) unequivically KNEW that they'd be dying and being tortured for a lie which gained them nothing, AND THEY KNEW IT, which doesn't make sense.

Hale-Bopp. Get your point, but it was Hale-Bopp. Now eat your pudding.