Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: WHY Afghanistan????????????
Randi Rhodes Message Board > Main Forums > Focused Interests > Iraq / Afghanistan
Pages: 1, 2
Mayoria
QUOTE (SickupandFed @ Jul 17 2008, 11:29 PM) *
It's been a question that has lingered in my mind for the last 5 years in this 7 year conflict so far. What are we doing there? Why is it taking this long to go in circles in Afghanistan??? What's the 'real' end game in this???? MONEY! GAS LINES!!! MIND CONTROL!!!!!!

Have I missed something??? Please add what you think.



All of the above plus

Heroin!

Osama's dead!

Don't agree w/ BHO on this one. We need to leave people that haven't bothered us alone.


err, the moslem extremists have bothered us - and the rest of the world - plenty!
Tabula-rosa
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment[attachment=6
28:GWOT.jpg]Click to view attachment

The main reasons were, the Unocal Caspian Sea pipeline, stratetgic interests, & heroin.

Hamid Kharzi is a former employee of Unocal.

For years the US paid the Taliban big money to eradicate the poppy crops, even just prior to our invasion.
There was no poppy crop when the Taliban was riding herd.

In fact, just prior to our invasion, the Taliban finally said that they would turn bin Laden over.
Bu$h said, "Too late for that."

Then Bu$h took his eye off of USAma only to let him escape from the ToraBora complex (Brown & Root constructed the Tora Bora complex),
because Dubya had a hard-on for Saddam. So Bu$h redeployed most of our troops to Iraq for "Shock & Awe."

Bu$hCo even used White Phosphorous on innocent Iraqi civilians during "Shock & Awe."

O.I.L.= Operation Iraqi Liberation sad.gif

AboutBreath
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 17 2008, 11:18 PM) *
however, the MOST sad & sickening thing is the way moslem extremists are behaving in Afghanistan - and of course, elswhere in the world.


Much like Bush and Cheney's behavior. Not only is it sad and sickening, it's criminal!!
AboutBreath
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 17 2008, 11:19 PM) *
And even Obama recognizes the need to send more troops there..


Yes, most of the Democrats are now stuck with the Republican's mess.
AboutBreath
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 17 2008, 11:22 PM) *
do you actually believe such action on Congress' part would be responsible ?


Yes I do. To end this current wrong administration's failed policies and occupying invasions and its adding of permanent military bases while draining the Treasury Dept is not only badly needed but wise. It would save many more lives too.
martsmart
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 17 2008, 09:13 PM) *
err, the moslem extremists have bothered us - and the rest of the world - plenty!



Yes...I've noticed they have thousands of troops in two Western countries, securing their continued oil supplies.

rolleyes.gif
AboutBreath
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 18 2008, 12:13 AM) *
err, the moslem extremists have bothered us - and the rest of the world - plenty!


Are you speaking of the same Muslim extremists that we (CIA) helped supplied, trained and supported against the Soviets in Afghanistan?
martsmart
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 18 2008, 01:28 PM) *
Are you speaking of the same Muslim extremists that we (CIA) helped supplied, trained and supported against the Soviets in Afghanistan?



Will you PLEASE stop bringing up uncomfortable FACTS?

Do you want to be able to drive your Hummer as much as you like, or what?

Oh...and sorry about the insane gas price increases lately, but as a patriotic American I'm sure you realize...freedom ain't cheap!
Ishmael
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 17 2008, 10:13 PM) *
err, the moslem extremists have bothered us - and the rest of the world - plenty!


Have you never read this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudyard_Kipling

Are you not familiar with the long history of other great powers attempts to subdue the wily Pathan in his mountain fastness? Are you unaware of ALL their failures? Are we any better or different than the Soviets or British before us? Are you aware that the people we are fighting in afghanistan are, in all likelihood, Descendants of the Lost Tribes of the Israelites as evidenced here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-L0cbf7OB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWFiQ-RUIzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_bhO1RdkIs

Sun Tzu wrote "Know your enemy and know yourself and you will have 10.000 victories."

I get the distinct impression our leaders have no idea who these people truly are. I'll bet OBL does though.
SickupandFed
QUOTE (Ishmael @ Jul 18 2008, 11:24 PM) *
Have you never read this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudyard_Kipling

Are you not familiar with the long history of other great powers attempts to subdue the wily Pathan in his mountain fastness? Are you unaware of ALL their failures? Are we any better or different than the Soviets or British before us? Are you aware that the people we are fighting in afghanistan are, in all likelihood, Descendants of the Lost Tribes of the Israelites as evidenced here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-L0cbf7OB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWFiQ-RUIzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_bhO1RdkIs

Sun Tzu wrote "Know your enemy and know yourself and you will have 10.000 victories."

I get the distinct impression our leaders have no idea who these people truly are. I'll bet OBL does though.




Osama's Dead!
AboutBreath
Who here, besides me, sense that Afghanistan will turn into a bigger mess like Iraq was? How many years will the next US surge into Afghanistan bring the Afghanistan war to appear to be successful like they're doing with Iraq right now? Will we be able to afford 4 years of Afghanistan at the levels of what Iraq was??


http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/arti...mp;parent_id=23

Afghan situation worse in 2008: German FM
Published: Sunday, 27 July, 2008, 01:33 AM Doha Time


KABUL: German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said yesterday that violence in Afghanistan had worsened over the past year, and promised more support from Germany for the building and reform of the Afghan police and military.

Aggression in the south of the country by Taliban insurgents has increased, Steinmeier said in a logistics school for the Afghan army, built by Germany in Kabul. The training of soldiers and police in Afghanistan must therefore be strengthened, he said. “The international community and Germany are standing steadfastly on your side,” said the German minister, who met with Afghan President Hamid Karzai the previous night.

Mark Laity, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (Nato) spokesman in Afghanistan, confirmed Steinmeier’s impression that security was worse. “We are currently in the middle of the fighting season,” he said, pointing out that between 40 to 50 violent incidents of varying intensity were being registered in Afghanistan daily. These ranged from single shots at Nato-led forces convoys to attacks with heavy explosives. Some 90% of these incidents happen in the south and east of the country.



Gulf Times Newspaper, 2008 ©

AboutBreath
Why Afghanistan? Now it appears that Afghanistan may become an important tool for our US Pentagon and military to have reason for striking Pakistan.




http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/01/stories/2008080155461400.htm

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has hit out at India and Afghanistan for the troubles in its north-western frontier tribal areas and pulled up Afghanistan for a bomb blast outside its consulate in the western Afghan city of Herat on Thursday; three people outside the consulate were injured.

A Foreign Ministry statement said, “Pakistan holds the government of Afghanistan responsible for the safety and security of its personnel in its embassy in Kabul and consulates in Herat, Kandahar, Jalalabad and Mazar-i-Sharif.” Afghanistan’s Ambassador was summoned to the Foreign Ministry to “convey the grave concerns” of the Pakistan government.


Tensions between Pakistan and Afghanistan have also escalated since then, with Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai also accusing the ISI of terrorist attacks in his country, including the attack on the Indian embassy.

With the U.S. joining in the accusations — the CIA was reported to have presented Pakistan with evidence of its hand in the Kabul attack — Pakistan chose Washington as the venue to reiterate the charge that India and Afghanistan were both involved in “trying to destabilise” the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA).
toptier
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 26 2008, 08:08 PM) *
Who here, besides me, sense that Afghanistan will turn into a bigger mess like Iraq was? How many years will the next US surge into Afghanistan bring the Afghanistan war to appear to be successful like they're doing with Iraq right now? Will we be able to afford 4 years of Afghanistan at the levels of what Iraq was??


I dunno.

Let's put McCain in and find out.
AboutBreath
QUOTE (toptier @ Jul 31 2008, 08:54 PM) *
Let's put McCain in and find out.


You may help to place McNutty in the oval office to find out, but I'll stick with Obama. At least with Obama, I sense that he'll try to save/salvage our domestic situation.


AboutBreath
This is another reason to stay out of long ongoing foreign wars. Those one might think to be our freinds are really our enemies. You'd think that our intel from war's past would have that proven point well established. That would require a reasonably smart leadership in order to 'learn' from past experiences.


http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archiv...30/1235111.aspx

Taliban commander: Afghan officials are helping kill Americans
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 3:14 PM ET
Filed Under: Terrorism

By Carol Grisanti, NBC News Producer, Pakistan


A prominent Taliban commander boasted to NBC News in an interview that Afghan officials are aiding his forces in fighting U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan.

In the interview, wanted Taliban commander Sirajuddin Haqqani said that the corrupted Afghan officials are a key to the Taliban's military success. “There are some people with government portfolios who are supporting us because they are worried about their own security,” Haqqani said. “They inform us of the movements of U.S. and NATO troops. There have even been some instances where they have assisted us in carrying out attacks,” he added.
AboutBreath
The opinion of Debbie Menon answers the question why?



http://www.payvand.com/news/08/aug/1056.html

08/06/08
Afghanistan – Long years of war and struggle

Debbie Menon is an independent writer based in Dubai. She can be reached at debbie.menon@yahoo.com.

Anyone who expects to survive in Afghanistan, Pakistan or that area, must eventually come to terms with the Taleban, like them or not. It is the people of this spirit and dogged determination, who have repelled every invader since Alexander the Great.

The invaders know this. The Americans are blind, and their "dominate or destroy" foreign policy stands in the way of any dialogue or accommodation.

How many people will have to be killed before peace descends on Afghanistan? Waziristan? All of them? Fighting and killing people, local and foreign, in villages in Afghanistan, no matter how successful the effort, no matter how many they kill in how many villages, will not resolve the problem of war and fighting. It merely promotes, pursues and prolongs the fighting and killing. It benefits the US and the coalition when they destabilize these countries, and maintain a docile and obedient puppet government, which sustains the flow through the pipelines and the political instability in the area.
SickupandFed
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Aug 6 2008, 11:57 PM) *
The opinion of Debbie Menon answers the question why?



http://www.payvand.com/news/08/aug/1056.html

08/06/08
Afghanistan � Long years of war and struggle

Debbie Menon is an independent writer based in Dubai. She can be reached at debbie.menon@yahoo.com.

Anyone who expects to survive in Afghanistan, Pakistan or that area, must eventually come to terms with the Taleban, like them or not. It is the people of this spirit and dogged determination, who have repelled every invader since Alexander the Great.

The invaders know this. The Americans are blind, and their "dominate or destroy" foreign policy stands in the way of any dialogue or accommodation.

How many people will have to be killed before peace descends on Afghanistan? Waziristan? All of them? Fighting and killing people, local and foreign, in villages in Afghanistan, no matter how successful the effort, no matter how many they kill in how many villages, will not resolve the problem of war and fighting. It merely promotes, pursues and prolongs the fighting and killing. It benefits the US and the coalition when they destabilize these countries, and maintain a docile and obedient puppet government, which sustains the flow through the pipelines and the political instability in the area.




Don't forget the heroin.
DougfromVancouver
The Taleban should have been treated as prisoners of war, they should not have been treated like Al Quaeda. The Taleban were the governing authority before invasion and need to be treated as such. Let them do the rebuilding, but keep NATO on site for some a period of time to remind them not to give aid and support to terror groups.
AboutBreath
QUOTE (DougfromVancouver @ Aug 7 2008, 09:33 PM) *
The Taleban should have been treated as prisoners of war, they should not have been treated like Al Quaeda. The Taleban were the governing authority before invasion and need to be treated as such. Let them do the rebuilding, but keep NATO on site for some a period of time to remind them not to give aid and support to terror groups.


Are we (NATO) there for 100 years if needed?
AboutBreath
QUOTE (SickupandFed @ Aug 7 2008, 07:43 PM) *
Don't forget the heroin.


The cash crop that will never ever go away


known2b
QUOTE (SickupandFed @ Jul 17 2008, 10:29 PM) *
It's been a question that has lingered in my mind for the last 5 years in this 7 year conflict so far. What are we doing there? Why is it taking this long to go in circles in Afghanistan??? What's the 'real' end game in this???? MONEY! GAS LINES!!! MIND CONTROL!!!!!!

Have I missed something??? Please add what you think.



All of the above plus

Heroin!

Osama's dead!

Don't agree w/ BHO on this one. We need to leave people that haven't bothered us alone.


Yea let us pull out and leave them to their own devices. They haven't bothered us, no not at all.
SickupandFed
QUOTE (known2b @ Aug 8 2008, 12:31 PM) *
Yea let us pull out and leave them to their own devices. They haven't bothered us, no not at all.


Please enlighten me. What did the people of Afghanistan do to the USA?

Or the Government?
AboutBreath
Interesting. With a new US president in 2009, Karzai announces he'll get to work as president of Afghanistan.



http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/481901

Afghan president admits mistakes

Aug 20, 2008 04:30 AM

Associated Press

KABUL–Afghan President Hamid Karzai said yesterday he would seek re-election next year in hopes of finishing a job he hasn't yet completed.

In a candid admission of some of his failures after four years in office, Karzai said Afghanistan does not yet have a functioning government, corruption remains rampant and the Afghan people "still suffer massively" in the fight against terrorism.
CowboySteve
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jun 20 2008, 03:02 PM) *
It's been a question that has lingered in my mind for the last 5 years in this 7 year conflict so far. What are we doing there? Why is it taking this long to go in circles in Afghanistan??? What's the 'real' end game in this???? MONEY! GAS LINES!!! MIND CONTROL!!!!!!

Have I missed something??? Please add what you think.
...


The Military Industrial Complex makes money any time a shell is fired, no matter if it is for a purpose. So the purpose of war doesn't matter to the Pentagon.

A short few quotes from Kipling should grace the Dubya Library (in Paraguay, perhaps?)

About the British War in Afghanistan.
And the end of the fight
Is a tombstone white
With the name of the late deceased
And the epitaph drear: "A fool lies here
who tried to hustle the East."



All the people like us are we,
And everyone else is they.


And Pat Buchanan's take on the famous quote.
AboutBreath
QUOTE (CowboySteve @ Aug 20 2008, 09:29 AM) *
The Military Industrial Complex makes money any time a shell is fired, no matter if it is for a purpose. So the purpose of war doesn't matter to the Pentagon.


You just described one of my main definitions for neocon.

Eyeswideopen
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2...1543116429.html

French troops 'killed by Nato jets'

Reports that 10 French soldiers who were killed in Afghanistan after being mistakenly attacked by Nato aircraft are to be "looked into," officials for the military alliance have said.

France's Le Monde newspaper quoted French soldiers who had survived the ambush near Kabul on Monday saying they were hit in a "friendly fire" incident.

The soldiers told the newspaper they waited for four hours for back-up after being ambushed.

But when Nato planes finally arrived they hit French troops after missing their target, the newspaper quoted the soldiers as saying.

A Nato official said on Wednesday: "I have nothing substantive to confirm or deny this particular suggestion.

"We are aware of the media reports and therefore we have to look into it."

The official said the International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) "would probably defer in the first instance to the French authorities," in the investigation.


Afghan 'quagmire'

Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman, said: "We have no reports of any casualties caused by close air support."


Asked whether French soldiers had been killed or wounded by friendly fire, he said there were "no reports of that".

The French army has refused to comment, the AFP news agency reported.


The comments came after Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, visited survivors of the incident at a French military base on the outskirts of Kabul on Wednesday.


He reaffirmed his government's commitment to the war in Afghanistan, saying: "We have to be here."

(snip)


AboutBreath
Decisions decisions decisions ...... what to do with all those poppy fields!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/10bfc3d6-737f-11...?nclick_check=1

UN call to abandon Afghan poppy eradication

By Jon Boone in Kabul

Published: August 26 2008 16:34 | Last updated: August 26 2008 18:02

The use of ground forces to destroy poppy crops in Afghanistan should be abandoned, the UN’s top anti-drugs officer said on Tuesday.

Antonio Maria Costa said the policy of manual eradication had cleared only a negligible portion of Afghanistan’s poppy fields and has been too costly in terms of resources and human lives.

Poppy eradication teams are often attacked by insurgents and angry farmers. Seventy-seven people were killed and $10m (€6.8m, £5.4m) spent on manual eradication last year. “Considering the way it has been so ineffective, I would say ‘give up’,” Mr Costa said.

He will put forward his plan to Afghan President Karzai on Wednesday, arguing for Afghanistan and international forces to concentrate on destroying heroin labs, public opium markets, and transport routes for opium leaving the country. “By de-linking farmers from markets we will help to further lower the price of opium and encourage licit crops,” Mr Costa said.
airbor504
It's a money maker!!!! When I was there (2004-2005) there were contractors everywhere, KBR had their fingers into everything and hired Haji (locals) at about three dollars a day. When I first went in the army privates used to have to conduct "police calls" to pick up the trash, now Haji picks up the trash and KBR gets the contract, there used to be army cooks that made good food (really), now KBR gets the contract to serve corn dogs, chicken wings, and anything else that can be heated up.

The Afghan army and government is corrupt at every level, everybody gets their cut along the way. We would find warehouses full of boots and uniforms that were supposed to go to the new Afghan National Army (ANA) where items would be diverted and sold on the black market while the individual soldiers had gear that was falling apart. ANA company commanders would take a cut out of their soldiers meager pay, and checkpoints would be set up on roads to make Afghan citizens pay tolls.

The whole operation over there is so corrupt on all sides that it just pisses me off. Even the American officers were more interested in what medals they would get and what kind of shopping deals they could get at the bazaar than on fixing what is broken.
AboutBreath

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1016551.html

31/08/2008

ANALYSIS / A giant failure called Afghanistan
By Zvi Bar'el, Haaretz Correspondent


The connective network that runs between Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan ensures that these killing fields will continue to operate with no foreseeable end. While al-Qaida operations in Iraq are diminishing (even if the number of casualties is not), Taliban operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan are on the rise. And while Britain announces a significant troop cut in Iraq, it is reportedly boosting its presence in Afghanistan to 4,500 fighters. France is also planning to send 700 more soldiers to Afghanistan, unless the deaths of 10 French soldiers this month changes the government's decision, and all of these will join some 34,000 U.S. troops.

It seems that these numbers are failing to make an impression on the residents of Afghanistan, or the residents of the Taliban regions in north-western Pakistan. The tragic incident on Saturday in which 90 Afghan civilians were killed according to a United Nations-approved Afghan report, or alternately 30 Taliban fighters were killed according to U.S. reports, brought about one of the greatest failure of the military efforts in Afghanistan since 2001.

First and foremost, the failure stems from the fact that the reports cannot be corroborated because the village that was bombed was under the complete control of the Taliban and other militias. Even police forces that were deployed in the region could not ascertain what exactly had happened because they were pushed inside a police station by protesting civilians and remained holed up inside it.

In any case, this is the second incident in recent months in which U.S. forces hit civilians (the last incident, in July, left 50 civilians dead at a wedding party). All in all, some 900 civilians have been killed this year according to Afghan human rights groups.

In the violent U.S. campaign against the Taliban in Afghanistan it is no longer clear what the target is, or who is in charge where. Seven years ago, when the U.S. decided to launch an offensive campaign in Afghanistan, two main goals were defined: removing the Taliban rule and capturing Osama bin-Laden and his close associates. Seven years later, coalition forces find themselves bogged down in an entanglement reminiscent of the situation faced by the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

The role reversal in Afghanistan between Russia and the U.S. is impressive. Like back then, this is a war whose main goal - the changing of the regime - has been achieved, but the new regime doesn't have the power to actually run the country. And like in the case of the Russians, the Americans too did not achieve their second goal, which was consequently replaced with a wholesale goal: to kill as many Taliban, even though coalition troop deaths in the country steadily rise as well.

Two battles are being waged in Afghanistan. One, dubbed "Operation Enduring Freedom" includes some 20,000 coalition soldiers operating in the southern part of the country and the regions populated by Taliban forces. The second battle, waged by the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, is being let by NATO and includes some 47,000 troops in the country to stabilize the region's security.

Now, the commander of the NATO forces in Afghanistan Gen. David McKiernan is asking to boost the American presence by 1,000 troops. Where will that kind of manpower come from? Maybe from mobilizing soldiers currently stationed in Iraq, but in the meantime, the U.S. is having difficulty striking an agreement with the Iraqi government on the status of the U.S. troops after December, when the UN mandate granted to international forces in Iraq expires. It is expected that the future deal will call for U.S. troops to remain in Iraq for at least another three years.

And what will happen in Afghanistan in the meantime? Another question is who will decide to boost the American presence there - will it be the Bush administration or will Afghanistan become Barack Obama's Iraq (if he is elected). In his campaign, Obama stresses the need to pull out of Iraq and widen the presence in Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, even the goal that was in essence achieved - removing the Taliban from power - did not create a worthy replacement. In an interview with the news agency The Associated Press, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said that his country did not have a functioning government yet and that corruption was rampant. He neglected to mention that his brother is a known drug dealer and that his regime relies heavily on American security forces, because the Afghan army is unreliable. He does command over some 75,000 soldiers armed with advanced weapons financed by the U.S. government, but this year it emerged that a 22-year-old arms dealer named Efraim Diveroli was supplying the Afghan army with weapons, in accordance with a U.S. contract.

Diveroli is currently being investigated by the U.S. Congress on suspicion that the $200 million-worth of weapons he supplied to the Afghan army was outdated, rusted and in part unusable, having been recovered from Soviet and Chinese caches. This affair does not reflect on the Afghan army's ability to fight the Taliban, but rather reflects on Washington's view of this army.

On the strategic front, there have been numerous problems and disagreements in the cooperation between the U.S. and the Afghan forces. These conflicts are not new, but when Karzai dismisses the Afghan army commander in charge of the western part of the country, where Saturday's bombing took place, it is difficult to anticipate the direction that the relations between Karzai and Washington will take, especially when Karzai sees himself as a candidate for another presidential term, in elections are scheduled for next year.


AboutBreath
QUOTE (airbor504 @ Aug 26 2008, 10:33 PM) *
It's a money maker!!!! When I was there (2004-2005) there were contractors everywhere, KBR had their fingers into everything and hired Haji (locals) at about three dollars a day. When I first went in the army privates used to have to conduct "police calls" to pick up the trash, now Haji picks up the trash and KBR gets the contract, there used to be army cooks that made good food (really), now KBR gets the contract to serve corn dogs, chicken wings, and anything else that can be heated up.

The Afghan army and government is corrupt at every level, everybody gets their cut along the way. We would find warehouses full of boots and uniforms that were supposed to go to the new Afghan National Army (ANA) where items would be diverted and sold on the black market while the individual soldiers had gear that was falling apart. ANA company commanders would take a cut out of their soldiers meager pay, and checkpoints would be set up on roads to make Afghan citizens pay tolls.

The whole operation over there is so corrupt on all sides that it just pisses me off. Even the American officers were more interested in what medals they would get and what kind of shopping deals they could get at the bazaar than on fixing what is broken.


Welcome home and thanks for all your contribution in the past and today.


canuckO
Canada was supposed to be in Afghanistan as a Peace Keeper not as combat troops

Canada nears 100 killed in Afghanistan with latest toll
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ioEThE...76NVzm5x6MGmf7w
gyordy
GHOST WARS by Steve Coll. This is excellent reading. http://www.bookreporter.com/reviews/1594200076.asp
Morgan
Why Afganistan??? Is that a serious question?

Maybe you need visual aids...


$60 Billion on the streets' profit each year, laundered by Wall Street.

AboutBreath
It apears that destroying Afghanistan will lead to the same in Pakistan. The spread of killing fields.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/7623097.stm

Rejecting the West

The word liberal in the Pakistani context means modern, educated, secular rather than theocratic and, up until now at least, pro-Western.

"You can't mean it," I protested. "Do you know what the Taleban were like in Afghanistan when they ran it, with compulsory prayers five times a day, do you want that?"

"Look," he said. "I can deal with Taleban, they are my own people. They come from here. I know them.

"I will be able to get around them. But the Americans never. No way."

That is how badly the battle for hearts and minds is going in Pakistan. It could scarcely be worse.

Taken aback by that conversation, I chatted about it with another senior Pakistani politician, a senator, again a well known liberal.

"I agree with him," he said. "Is there is no end to it? The Americans are now bombing Pakistani people. What are they doing here 12,000 miles away from home?"

And he told me about his children, four boys.

"I sent them to the UK for their education," he said, "I spent all my money on it. They had five, six years in England at boarding schools, it was a crucial time of their lives, they were young.

"They could have stayed and settled down there but they all choose not to. They didn't want to. All four are living here in Pakistan and praying five times a day.


"I don't pray five times a day," he said. "They do. Why? Because you in the West have forced them away, forced them towards Islam. You have forced them out."

Again, I was taken aback. Apart from the familiar complaints about foreign policy, what had those boys seen in their English boarding school that they did not like?

Drunkenness, I guess. Consumerism, maybe. Disrespect for the elderly always shocks Pakistanis, so perhaps that.

I guess that seen through some young Pakistani eyes there are things we do that they do not want.

Still, anti-Americanism in Pakistan has reached quite fantastic levels.

There are now suicide bombs every few days and no-one doubts that the Taleban recruit, train and equip the bombers.

After one recent suicide attack, the brother of one of the victims was quoted in the press.

Did he blame the Taleban? He did not. "America is responsible for my brother's death," he said. "If the Americans went back home everything would be calm here."

There is, I think, universal agreement amongst Pakistanis that, if the US continues to rely so heavily on military firepower in Afghanistan, and increasingly in Pakistan too, then the Taleban will win.
Bammo
QUOTE (Morgan @ Sep 16 2008, 10:19 PM) *
Why Afganistan??? Is that a serious question?

Maybe you need visual aids...


$60 Billion on the streets' profit each year, laundered by Wall Street.




There it is ---for sure!!!

Hang Tough ~
Bammo
RandiLover
The National Guardsman is going to come home, expecting to resume his old job, to find a Jack in the Box in its place.
Bammo
The blood of war is not even a concern amongst the american sheople who are paying for this SHRUB fiasco in more ways than one. The economy and price of free-ken gas is top priority.

Throw in a draft where ALL have to take part in this BS and just watch the concern grow.

Attitude is, it doesn't effect me any so why care. Typical american way. Then top it off blaming this fiasco down the road on the troops that were sent there. That also would be par for the course with the sheople in this country.

Hang Tough ~


AboutBreath
QUOTE (Bammo @ Sep 25 2008, 08:21 AM) *
The blood of war is not even a concern amongst the american sheople who are paying for this SHRUB fiasco in more ways than one. The economy and price of free-ken gas is top priority.

Throw in a draft where ALL have to take part in this BS and just watch the concern grow.

Attitude is, it doesn't effect me any so why care. Typical american way. Then top it off blaming this fiasco down the road on the troops that were sent there. That also would be par for the course with the sheople in this country.

Hang Tough ~




Did you happen to watch the first debate between McNutty and Obama last night? As I watched it, thoughts about both candidates seemingly saw Afghanistan as a way to Pakistan..... war. Do you think this also? Was Afghanistan the door that opened all wars in the East?


Bammo
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Sep 27 2008, 11:00 AM) *
Did you happen to watch the first debate between McNutty and Obama last night? As I watched it, thoughts about both candidates seemingly saw Afghanistan as a way to Pakistan..... war. Do you think this also? Was Afghanistan the door that opened all wars in the East?


Yup, checked out the debate and got about the same conclusion concerning Pakistan.

Either listen to us (U.S. of A.) or pay the piper. The ME bloodshed is far from over. Trading Iraq for Afghanistan or holding in Iraq and trying to gain whatever in Afghanistan in my book is ridiculous.

Look at history one more time fella's and say RUSSIA and Mujahideen.

Afghanistan was Russia's Vietnam and what have they got to lose now against the U.S.? Not a damn thing IMHO and will fight until they wear us out, money wise or head wise. Add in Pakistan and we are doubling the blood and creation of more enemies from the fiasco.

With a volunteer military, how many free-ken wars can we fight? Either this economy will make sure the volunteer military of this country strengthens or get ready foor the DRAFT and I hope the hell it comes soon to get the sheople off their azz's and start to give a damn on whats going down by our elected polititcians.

Hang Tough ~


Pakistan tribesmen vow to fight US 'until the last soul'

Toting rocket launchers and Kalashnikovs, the bearded tribesmen say they back the Pakistani government -- yet pledge they will fight to the death against US incursions on their soil.

The Pakistani military took reporters to the Pashtun tribal fighters in the tribal region bordering Afghanistan in a bid to show they have the support of locals for a month-long operation in the area, an Al-Qaeda and Taliban hotspot.

But there was also a strong message for US forces over the border, who have caused anger in Pakistan with a string of alleged territorial violations, including a raid by US ground troops on September 3 that left 15 people dead.

"We will fight against America until the last soul if they come to our country," said Malik Manasib Khan, the leader of a "lashkar", or tribal force, called up to help Pakistan's army expel the militants -- and anyone else.

"For us, the Taliban, NATO and the United States are all equals," the burly tribal chief told journalists in the bazaar at Raghagan, about 12 kilometres (eight miles) northeast of Khar, the main town in Bajaur region.

Fiercely independent, religiously conservative and obsessed by revenge, the tribes along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border have repelled all invaders for centuries and still hold the key to stability in the region.

When thousands of Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants fled the US-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, the tribes sheltered them, viewing them as successors of the "mujahedeen" who fought the Soviet occupiers of Afghanistan in the 1980s.

In 2003, Islamabad launched army operations at Washington's behest in the tribal belt, especially the notorious Waziristan area, but civilian deaths helped to radicalise and fire up many more tribesmen against the government.

Pakistani authorities have in recent years made major efforts to win the support of leading tribesmen in a bid to drive out foreign Al-Qaeda militants and isolate the most hardcore Taliban commanders.

Yet that policy -- combined with US and Afghan suspicions that elements in Pakistan's intelligence agencies still back the Taliban -- has caused tensions with Washington, which wants Islamabad to launch an all-out offensive.

Pakistan complied and in August launched a military push in Bajaur, the smallest but increasingly the most dangerous of the country's seven tribal regions. The army said Friday the operation had left 1,000 militants dead.

But the deaths of 11 Pakistani soldiers in a US air strike in June, a series of missile strikes and, on Thursday, an exchange of gunfire after Pakistani troops fired at US helicopters, have raised tensions to boiling point.

Members of a local jirga, or traditional tribal council, warned NATO and US forces in Afghanistan to stay away from their territory.

"They should abstain from interfering in our area, otherwise we will take action against them," tribal elder Masood Jan said.

Another tribal elder, Omar Wahid, said foreign troops "will not return alive from Pakistan if they try to enter our territory."

Similar warnings for foreign troops to stay away from where they are not wanted were made by a young tribal leader as about 500 tribesmen chanted "Allahu Akbar (God is Greater)."


http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h_Zr25...Q5wuttNHiQvJiCA
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.