First, one level of devata heard it, then they shouted up to the next level and soon all the devas were rejoicing - right up to the highest, the Brahma realm. There was resounding joy that the Wheel of Dhamma was set rolling and these devas and brahmas were rejoicing in it. However, only Kondanna, one of the five diciples, was enlightened when he heard this sermon. At the very end of the sutta, the Buddha called him 'Profound Knowing'.

What did Kondanna know? What was his insight that the buddha praised at the very end of the sermon?

"Success cannot exist without failure. Both are impermanent. "

it depends on what success is. but i disagree, in the end, both are eternal.

my interest is in the aims of buddhism, the end of all ends

i have a great respect for the ideals of buddhism, and for the most part i think they're an apt description of reality. my interest is in the aims of buddhism, the end of all ends, enlightenment. to come to enlightenment, they say, is to essentially become buddha, if i'm not mistaken. does it not seem daunting that in all the buddhists in the world, there isn't at least one buddha? it seems reasonable that anyone's chances of actually reaching enlightenment by the means of buddhism are zero. so really, what's the difference between a lifetime of devotion and failure and a lifetime of depravity and failure? don't get me wrong, i'm not criticizing the means, i just dont see the end. the cessation of suffering is evidently beyond the efforts of all who try. wouldn't it seem that while the idea that suffering should be struggled against, which i think intrinsically true independent of belief structure, in light of it's unnattainable end the essence of vanity? do the means of reaching this end by the buddhist methodology not seem futile? can anyone claim success?

With the reflection upon the Noble Truths, we bring into consciousness this problem of human existence. We look at this sense of alienation and blind attachment to sensory consiousness, the attachment to that which is separate and stands forth in consciousness. Out of ignorance, we attach to desires for sense pleasures. When we identify with what is mortal or death-bound, and with what is unsatisfactory, that very attachment is suffering.

Mortal or immortal, physical or spiritual, datum or perception, it all sounds like more dualistic thinking to me.

The Third Noble Truth contains these aspects:

The World Honored One states:



This teaching is to develop the reflective mind in order to let go of delusions. The Four Noble Truths is a teaching about letting go by investigating or looking into - contemplation.

Question: I know Buddhism preaches the necessity of the ending of suffering.

But what about what the great philosopher, James Tiberius Kirk, said, about pain, when asked in Star Trek V?

James T. Kirk: Damn it Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. [to Sybok] I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!

[snip]

Many artists say suffering drives and informs their work.

Many others say suffering and pain is what shapes and molds their character.

The other great philosopher, Conan Schwarzenegger, said
"Whatever does not kill us, makes us stronger."

If the human race had no more suffering, would we not be getting rid of some of its greatest achievements?

To realise cessation is quite difficult because this entails abiding with what we think we cannot bear. When I first started meditating, I had the idea that meditation would make me kinder and happier and I was expecting to experience blissful mind states. But during the first 6 months, I never felt so much hatred and anger in my life. I thought, 'This is terrible; meditation has made me worse.' But then I contemplated why was there so much hatred and aversion comming up, and I realised that much of my life had been an attempt to run away from all that.

Be Well.

Thank you Alildotonearth.

Give me a bit of time to respond. Probably not tonight though.

But only if you promise not to call me "Mythos" anymore.

Namaste'

I see, there is no need to respond. Was I refering to you personally as Mythos or was I speaking in a pluristic sense ? How many people read these threads ? Have you searched the virtual world for all the applications of the word mythos as yet ? In greek I think its literal translation means story or legend. But that does not begin to cover all the meanings of Mythos today. Spirit Mythos is an interesting search if you were to ask me.

How many people read these threads ?

Conan Schwarzennegger?
"Putcha, putcha, putcha. I question your sincerety."

Was there anything "mythic" or "legendary" in this thread you perceived?

Was there anything "mythic" or "legendary" in this thread you perceived?

LilDot... you are a Theist. The nature of your own mind escapes reality. I see that now. Mythology occupies your mind.

Would you not agree, Myoho, that the Buddhist scripture, especially in Mahayana Buddhism, now contains mythological elements? That aspects of Buddha's life (and others) have been mythologized?

I agree you are not using such elements and are focusing on techniques and practices, but they do exist.

Lildot - this thread is about Buddhist philosophy. We are here to discuss this philosophy. If you want to talk about your magical, invisible sky daddy, then by all means start your own threads.

Looks like in over four years of my membership on this board I will be using the "Ignore" button for the first time.

Well the topic of the thread is the third noble truth and cessation of pain. So I am challenging the concept of stopping pain in this lifetime. As though we all could live our life in a blissful state detached from the total world itself. You have the right to ignore me, yes indeedy. Perhaps in the last 4 years your ideologies have not been challenged to such a degree as I have recently. If you want to act like an ostrich sticking your head in the sand, that is on you. Just remember if you do act like a fearful ostrich, your butt is exposed. Good-luck in your search for the truth, mine is well grounded now in reality with occasional unrealistic expectations. To know the truth it is sometimes necessary to experience altered realities.

I feel so abandoned now, I need prozac stat, hahahahahahha.

Perhaps in the last 4 years your ideologies have not been challenged to such a degree as I have recently.

Are one person's spiritual challenges more intense and dramatic than another's? Perhaps. Perhaps not. If we arrive at the same place, does it matter which map we use?

THE THIRD PATRIARCH OF ZEN

Master Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-T'san


The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and undisguised. Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart. If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind. When the deep meaning of things is not understood, the mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.

The Way is perfect like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing in excess. Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in inner feelings of emptiness. Be serene in the oneness of things and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.

When you try to stop activity by passivity your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain in one extreme or the other you will never know Oneness. Those who do not live in the single Way fail in both activity and passivity, assertion and denial. To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality; To assert the emptiness of things is to miss their reality.

The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know.

To return to the root is to find meaning, but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.

At the moment of inner enlightenment, there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness. The changes that appear to occur in the empty world, we call real only because of our ignorance.

Do not search for the truth; only cease to cherish opinions. Do not remain in the dualistic state, avoid such pursuits carefully. If there is even a trace of this or that, of right and wrong, the mind-essence will be lost in confusion.

Although all dualities come from the One, do not be attached even to this One.

When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way, nothing in the world can offend, and when a thing can no longer offend, it ceases to exist in the old way.

When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to exist. When thought objects vanish, the thinking-subject vanishes: As when the mind vanishes, objects vanish. Things are objects because of the subject (mind): the mind (subject) is such because of things (object). Understand the relativity of these two and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness. In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable and each contains in itself the whole world.

If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine, you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.

To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult, but those with limited views are fearful and irresolute; the faster they hurry, the slower they go.

And clinging (attachment) cannot be limited. Even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment is to go astray - just let things be in their own way and there will be neither coming nor-going.

Obey the nature of things, your own nature, and you will walk freely and undisturbed. When the thought is in bondage the truth is hidden; for everything is murky and unclear -- and the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and weariness. What benefit can be derived ffrom distinctions and separations?

If you wish to move in the One Way do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas. Indeed, to accept them fully is identical with enlightenment.

The wise man strives to no goals but the foolish man fetters himself. There is one Dharma, not many. Distinctions arise from the clinging needs of the ignorant. To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind is the greatest of all mistakes.

Rest and unrest derive from illusion; with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking. All dualities come from ignorant inference. They are like dreams or flowers in air - it is foolish to try to grasp them.

Gain and loss, right and wrong; such thoughts must finally be abolished at once. If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease. If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence. To understand the mystery of this One-essence is to be released from all entanglements. When all things are seen equally the timeless Self-essence is reached, No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state.

Consider movement stationary and the stationary in motion, both movement and rest disappear. When such dualities cease to exist Oneness itself cannot exist. To this ultimate finality no law or description applies. For the unified mind in accord with the way all self-centered striving ceases. Doubts and irresolutions vanish, and life in true faith is possible.

With a single stroke we are freed from bondage, nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing. All is empty, clear, self-illuminating, with no exertion of the mind’s power.

Here --- thought, feeling, knowledge and imagination are of no value. In this world of suchness there is neither self nor other-than-self. To come directly into harmony with this reality just say when doubt rises "not two". In this "not two" nothing is separate, nothing is excluded. No matter when or where, enlightenment means entering this truth. And this truth is beyond extension or diminution in time and space: In it a single thought is ten thousand years.

Emptiness here, emptiness there, but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes. Infinitely large and infinitely small; no difference, for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen.

So too with "Being" and "non-Being". Don’t waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this. One thing, all things, move among and intermingle without distinction.

To live in this realization is to be without anxiety about non-perfection. To live in this faith is the road to non-duality, because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.

Words!

The Way is beyond language,

for in it there is no yesterday, no tomorrow, no today..........

When he opens his mouth he is lost. When he seals his mouth he is lost. If he does not open it, if he does not seal it, he is 108,000 miles from the truth.

This is to be realised. The Buddha said emphatically; 'This is a Truth to be realised here and now.' We do not have to wait until we die to find out if it's all true - this teaching is for living human beings like ourselves. Each one of us has to realise it. I may tell you about it and encourage you to do it but I can't make you realise it!

All that is subject to arising is subject to ceasing.'

REALISATION




Don't think of it as something remote or beyond your ability. When we talk about Dharma or Truth, we say that is here and now, and something we can see for ourselves. We can turn to it; we can incline towards the Truth. We can pay attention to the way it is, here and now, at this time and this place. That's mindfulness - being alert and bringing attention to the way it is. Through mindfulness, we investigate the sense of selfe, this sense of me and mine: my body, my feelings, my memories, my thoughts, my views, my opinions, my house, my car and so on.


A practitioner does not need to know everything about everything; it is only necessary to know and fully understand this law.

We take Refuge in Sangha (community), in that which is doing good and refraining from doing evil. Sangha is one thing, a community. It's not a group of individual personalities or characters. The sense of being an individual person or man or woman is no longer important. This sense of Sangha is realised as a Refuge. There is just clarity and peacefulness.