Religion claims another victim, this time a 16-year-old boy in Gladstone, OR.



The parents belong to the Followers of Christ Church, a denomination that doesn't believe in crap like doctors and medicine and similar voodoo. All it would have taken to save the kid's life was the insertion of a catheter. While a physician could have taken care of it in a matter of minutes, it was apparently too much for God to handle. It took a week for this boy to die, while his parents looked on and prayed. These people are monsters.

And the icing on the cake?



While justice might eventually be served in the death of the little girl, Oregon law allows people 14 years of age and older to decline medical treatment. And according to all involved in Neil Beagley's slow excruciating death this was his wish. And who are we to doubt them?

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5197489&page=1

This is a needless tragedy and yet in our history not uncommon. There is to me, a fine line between a cloister and a cult. If history proves anything to me, cults are self-destructive.

wasnt paul a dr? I thought he told somebody to drink somebody to drink wine for their sore belly.

looks like im wrong, but his friend luke was.


http://www.biblestudyinfo.com/paul/biography.shtml

It was during this period that he met Luke, a doctor who would become a close adherent and would eventually write one of the gospels as well as the book of Acts.

Yes, but that was before doctors became evil and started praying to Hippocrates for their dark powers.

This is my neighborhood, almost literally, and I'm kind of torn on this one. This is a 14 year-old and the legislature did set 14 as an age of consent to make one's own medical decisions. If someone chooses to make a drastically bad one for themself then Darwin awards all 'round. Unfortunately the cause of death here was poisoning of the mind for 14 years, and it isn't curable so we may have to await the extinction of the infected population before the tragedy ends. For it to happen to someone so young is tragic, but he chose it and though there was some slim chance that life would take him away from his family and change his thinking those folks stay together in a tight community to reinforce their superstitions and it is very unlikely.

In some religions the willingness to accept death is held with greater esteem than living with YOU.

There is something to living and dying without fear of death.

I think that there is a difference between accepting death and watching a 16-year-old-boy die slowly, painfully, and needlessly.

And you don't need to have religion in order not to fear death. I don't look forward to death, but I don't fear it and i have no religion at all.

No one should fear death. If it's your time to go, it's your time to go. However, when a death is preventable such as the case with this boy, there is nothing honorable or admirable in that. The boy's parents who watched him slowly suffer and die are complicit in his death.

There was a man standing on the roof of his house. The waters were raging and there was a small motor boat making way to him. "Ahoy!!! Jump and I will take you to safety!" The man shook his head no, thinking to himself, I will not give up my faith, God will save me. The boat moved on to help others.

A few hours later, a helicopter sees him and trys to get him to climb the ladder, he refuses, and the helicopter flys away.

A swamp boat drives by to see the man ankle deep, "Get on pal, lets go."
Again the man refuses to get on this rescuers boat.

The waters were getting rough so the rescuer had to leave. The man finally succumbed to the waters and found himself in front of Saint Peter.

"I just don't understand it, I have believed all of my life and I was let down."

Saint Peter looked at the man and said," We sent two boats and a helicopter, if you are too stupid to live so be it."

I don't think we should assume to judge others religious choices.

Criticising them for having an alternative view of life, letting nature take its course, free will....is bigotry.

After all, this is NOT the best of all possible worlds. We may have another choice too.

So, I guess that their faith wasn't strong enough and the end result was their son's death.

What's the next play... the "God's Plan" card?

Isn't that what we claim about Muslim extremists... their willingness to die for Allah?? Yet we openly criticize them.

You've given me more confirmation, as if I needed it, that any cruelty, any infliction of pain, any suffering or death at all is acceptable as long as the people inflicting it are convinced, or claim to be of the conviction, that they are acting in accordance with god's will.

If it was the father who had the medical problem and he chose to suffer and die rather than have it taken care of , fine with me. But, the State of Oregon's law regarding the age of consent notwithstanding, I believe that a brainwashed 16-year-old surrounded by family who are convinced that prayer is the only answer, is maybe not competent to make an informed decision in this matter. Doesn't matter now. He's been deprived of his life on this earth.

All I can say is, I'm glad my parents weren't like this kid's parents. And that they weren't like you either. If they had been, I'd probably be dead or on the streets or married to some poor woman who I couldn't wait to get away from so i could cruise for guy sex in restrooms.

What's with the "YOU" comment anyway??

I guess any form of cruelty, madness or abuse is alright provided it has god's seal of approval.

A slight twist in this story is that the boy also insisted on going without medical treatment, and Oregon state law permits kids 14 and over to make such medical decisions for themselves. If he's asked for treatment, his decision would have overridden the parents' decision.

Yeah, I mentioned that too. All I can say is, brainwashed people of any age are not always competent when it comes to making decisions like this. And all we have to go on is the word of the family concerning the boy's wishes. Although assuming they did their job properly they probably didn't have to lie about his intentions. I suppose one way to look at it is death is preferable to life in Fundie hell. Too bad God chose such a horrible way for the kid to die.

As a parent, I am in compete awe that people would do this to their child. There are a lot of reasons to suspect the health care industry complex, because money corrupts. We do rush drugs to market before they are ready.... it isn't perfect and people get hurt, but the underlying motivation, is to make people's lives better for the most part. I wasn't a huge fan of the medicine, until I had a really rough pregnancy. Without out science and the pursuit to make lives better, then my son would not be here.... and quite possibly I would not be here either.

Isn't it funny that when bad things happen to non-believers, then god was punishing them for not believing... But when bad things happen to a person of faith, then it was just god's will and they should accept it. Once you give in to the fact that we don't have any control over some of the things that happen.... that sometimes bad things just happen.... it is very liberating.

It has been for centuries. I don't understand why people of faith just accept that the world sucks.... My father is always saying, "there is nothing we can do.... mankind has been this way forever and will always be." They have no hope in themselves or their fellow man that they just put everything into their love for god. The whole idea of heaven gives them an excuse to do nothing in the face of injustice and the whole idea of forgiveness gives them an excuse to be cruel to each other. If they would just love one another then they wouldn't need forgiveness and the world would be good enough not to have to rely on the promise of heaven to achieve happiness.

Would Saint Peter then let him in through the gates of heaven?

Some Christian insist that life on earth is a test of faith. (such as these Followers of Christ Church)

We have brains - a Christian would argue that god gave us our brain, (no, not evolved). Over time people have used this "god given brain" to solve problems - such as an inflamed urethra.

Is faith the rejection of logic and learning?

In this case people have learned how to deal with an inflamed urethra, by inserting a catheter. The infection is then solved by antibiotics etc. All this technology has been learned and expanded up on over time by people who are Christians (as well as other religions).

Their logic, as I understand it, is that modern medicine and doctors are a temptation by satan and if you go to one, you are losing faith in God. According to Wiki

I noticed that the couple that lost their baby have a lawyer to defend them in court. Why? How different is having faith in a lawyer, from having a doctor? Where's the faith? Should not god deliver them from the hands of their enemies, through faith alone?

A 14 year old is not old enough to do much of anything in this country on their own. A 14 year old cannot drive a car, a 14 year old cannot vote, a 14 year old cannot drink alcohol in a bar, a 14 year old cannot enlist in the military service and a 14 year old cannot make important decisions regarding his/her own health in terms of treatment and that is my opinion. A 16 year old on the other hand can do many things a 14 year old cannot yet is not given the exact same rights as an adult in any state in the country and for good reason.

Should a 16 year old should be given a life and death decision when this country obviously does not see them as being old enough to even make a decision about who should be their Congressman, Mayor, President, etc? My answer is no.

Should a 16 year old be given such a heavy responsibility when they're not allowed the responsibility to drink at a bar? My answer is no.


A non-surgical, non-drug treatment. Would these people be against using a bandage if they cut themselves or would they just let it bleed out? I want to know what their line of distinction between the two are, is it because one is inserted into the urethra and the other is an external application?

America is one of the most heavily 'religous' countries in the world and also one of the most propagandized..........I think the 2 go together along with the unaffordability of higher education and the encroachment of ID in the public school system............

The Vancouver parents of sextuplets born in January are now in a legal battle with the province, claiming the government violated their religious rights when social workers seized three of their newborns to give them blood transfusions.

The parents, both Jehovah's Witnesses, argue the province had no right to step in against their wishes to take temporary custody of three of their four surviving sextuplets.

Two blood transfusions were done, and the babies were returned to the custody of their parents on Wednesday.

The couple says their constitutional rights were disregarded because, as Jehovah's Witnesses, they oppose any treatment involving blood transfusions.

B.C. Minister of Children and family Services Tom Christensen made it clear that regardless of a family's religious affiliation, "the obligation is to ensure that a child in need of protection … gets the treatment required," even if that means the ministry must step in. Full Story

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu_VyLF5IQ4AB...ke_bc_to_c.html

A very sad story...........and what's equally as sad is no one stepped into help.........nobody had a tire iron etc..........?

"A 27-year-old grocery store worker who police say punched and kicked his 2-year-old son to death on a country road calmly told motorists who stopped at the scene that he had to get the demons out of the boy, two witnesses said Monday."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...6.DTL&tsp=1

The treated children have the right to live also.

It's a shame that stupidity and magical thinking can't be reliably predicted by one's beliefs. The Republicans and Fox News say it's the Far Left/Obama/Democrats. Often the search for categories of magical thinking leads one to magical thinking itself.

There are alternative treatments to blood transfusion. It was callous and bigoted for anyone to think that violating peoples religious restrictions, when there is an alternative, is sound thinking. The civil rights of these people is being violated by bigots using political correctness as a cover for their own brand of magical thinking and ignorance.

Here's an idea: Let's take the children away from vegans and feed them meat, because protien is needed for healthful living.
Forcing blood transfusions has the same level of credibility.

i have to agree. people have the right to be stupid. 16 year olds can drive, and many do it poorly. I think we all make more mistakes when young. We cant take away the parents rights. but we can shame them. and hope this does not keep happening. I wouldnt wear a seat belt until i had my son. It was both stupid and illigal, but i would telll anyone who would listen I should have a right to be stupid. I guess i still believe that.

I agee. Teens ought to have a pretty fair degree of control over what happens to their bodies. But when it comes down to life and death decisions I think that others ought to be involved. At the very least, this kid should have been given the options available. I don't know that he wasn't, but under the circumstances i seriously doubt it.


This is a great point. Where do they draw the line exactly? Would they allow a bandage and antiseptic on a badly cut finger? Would they allow
a precancerous skin lesion to be removed? A catheter might involve some localized pain killer but I don't think anything more than that in terms of diabolical ungodly medical concoctions. Now that i think about it, it's probable that the parents had no clue as to what was available medically to treat this. They probably didn't even fully grasp what the problem was cuz their god probably wouldn't have wanted them to find out. I'd say that's criminal, although apparently not prosecutable.

I'm forced to agree, but these kids are not old enough to make a life decision for themselves. Their parents are wackos and they shouldn't be allowed to insure their children. They are a risk.

I have no problem with people being stupid. As long as it primarily affects only themselves. Again, if the father had wanted to die a slow death in this way, fine. He would be depriving his family of his love, affection and income, but all actions have consequences. But when they start drawing innocent family members into their insanity and forcing them to be the primary victim I think we have they right to step in. Religious freedom is broad and deep but it is not absolute. Neither are the rights that parents have over their children.

As for comparing this case to vegan parents not feeding their kids meat I think you are being just a little bit disingenuous.

how do you draw the line. what about vaccines?

what would we say if they were forced to do what the dr say, and they become that 1 in 1000 that something goes wrong.

Of course it's ludicrous. To imply that a 14 year old is equipped to make decisions on their own behalf, free of parental influence, is ridiculous. And as I understood the first reference I saw to this law, it was lobbied for and advanced by these fundies specifically because of decisions like these.

I agree. But few things are black and white, most things are gray. And we deal with gray and draw lines all the time in every aspect of law and life. I think that in this particular case the line that has been drawn is in the wrong place.

i have trouble with the man telling me what to do with my body or my childs. On the other hand, i have trouble with people lacking the ability to make good safe choices. its a shame that it should even be an issue. if my son needs help, i would do anything to make him better.

And again, the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment is discarded..in this case due to tradition.

You all seem to have the same attitude that the parents religion is insane, rediculous and stupid.
You think that the state should step in and control the beliefs and actions of religions that don't measure with your standards.
You expose your own ignorance when you wonder where the line is drawn.

You are BIGOTS!

The line should be drawn at the end of your nose. Because nothing that goes on in anybody's life is any of your damn business.

I personally never called the religion or their practices insane, ridiculous or stupid. I merely questioned the motives and whether they consider a non-surgical, non-drug treatment so horrible that people would give their lives in the name of some religious belief. Because of this, your comments are completely out of line and I DEMAND you retract that statement and issue a broad apology to everyone.

Alfredo, I think I was the one who used the word "stupid" on connection with this. People can't keep us straight it seems like (no pun intended)
And ABQ, I stand by it. I think that what these people believe has no more validity than fear of walking under a ladder. And if it didn't hurt anyone I would care a bit about their crap. But when it results in the death of kids and babies I think it's time to say something. You're free count belief as more important than the lives of children. I don't.

I know, it must be that we're gay that people think we all look alike? LOL

The problem is ABQ is lumping everyone into a mass personal attack, calling everyone who posted a comment in this topic a bigot and I take serious offense to that. It makes him just as intolerant as anyone else and he needs to take a seriously long hard look in the mirror.

WE were commenting to a news article. If it posted here, it IS our business and we can comment anyway we see fit.
If you don't like our comments, don't read them.

Excellent point!!! No doctors, then no lawyers either!

A little factoid here: Soya contains 1.5 times more whole protein than meat.

... minus the fat, cholesterol and cruelty content of course.

Peanuts are a good source too!

I love me some meat... but my family is considering cutting meat from our diet for ecological reasons. It takes 8 pound of grain to produce 1 pound of beef. Add to it the fuel and pesticides used in the grain production and then the fuel used to move the meat around... the beef industry is one of the most inefficient industries in operation today. Then when you think about all of the hormones and antibiotics.... it's just not healthy. I am also troubled by the mistreatment of animals in the factory farm. We are looking into buying a cow from a local organic rancher in an effort to lessen our impact to the environment and to get a cleaner product to put in our bodies.

OMG!!!!

Especially in Snickers bars...

"minus the fat, cholesterol and cruelty content of course."

Excepting the cruelty to those that have to actually eat it. ..barf

What's your malfunction???

We are all still waiting.

Essentially, you would do what aany good parent would do. At what point should the community step in to prevent harm to those children who have parents that put faith before their child life? Does your child have a right to life - at the expense of your faith? Or should your faith take precedent over the child rights to life and health? You sound like someone who would go to hell and back for your child - as would I for my children. It is hard for me to try to walk in these peoples shoes.