who
Jun 22 2008, 12:47 PM
They seem to be disappearing; have they lost their usefulness? Were they ever useful?
QUOTE
http://www.slate.com/id/2194087/; Has modern life killed the semicolon?By Paul Collins
Posted Friday, June 20, 2008, at 4:51 PM ET
excerpt:
When the Times of London reported in 1837 on two University of Paris law profs dueling with swords, the dispute wasn't over the fine points of the Napoleonic Code. It was over the point-virgule: the semicolon. "The one who contended that the passage in question ought to be concluded by a semicolon was wounded in the arm," noted the Times. "His adversary maintained that it should be a colon."
French passions over the semicolon are running high once again. An April Fool's hoax this year by the online publication Rue89 claimed that the Nicolas Sarkozy government planned to demand "at least three semicolons per page in official administrative documents." Parliamentarian Benoist Apparu was in on the joke—"The disappearance of the semicolon in Eastern France is absolutely dramatic," he gamely proclaimed—and linguist Alain Rey (barely) kept a straight face for a video calling Frenchmen to arms. Reporters were taken in, since, like every great hoax, it was plausible enough to be true. Le Figaro has proclaimed, "The much-loved semicolon is in the process of disappearance; let us protect it," and there was even a brief attempt at a Committee for the Defense of the Semicolon—a modern update on the Anti-Comma League that France had back in 1934. French commentators blame the semicolon's decline on everything from "the modern need for speed" to the corrupting influence of English and its short, declarative sentences. It's a charge leveled for years stateside, too, with Sven Birkerts bemoaning the Internet's baleful influence on semicolons a decade ago.
Has modern life killed the semicolon?
CWV
Jun 22 2008, 02:20 PM
I use them occaisionally. I'm not sure if I use them correctly, but I do use them.
TapDuncan
Jun 22 2008, 02:22 PM
Oh man I love the semi-colon; it really ties the room together.
LibLaw
Jun 22 2008, 02:24 PM
No; I think they are used. Just not as much.
Alfredo
Jun 22 2008, 02:26 PM
QUOTE (CWV @ Jun 22 2008, 11:45 AM)

I use them occaisionally. I'm not sure if I use them correctly, but I do use them.
I'm with you CWV. I know what they are, I know when they're supposed to be use or at least I think I do but I often wonder if I'm using them correctly and when I probably should be using them I do not.
LibLaw
Jun 22 2008, 02:26 PM
Now my colon, that's another story. It doesn't get used near as much as it should, according to my doctor.

oy vey!
TapDuncan
Jun 22 2008, 02:28 PM
Mine seem to be working overtime, what with the continual ingestion of Tequila and hot wings and all...
j2nyc
Jun 22 2008, 02:28 PM
Semicolons are used in excess in programming languages. They aren't dead. They just moved out of town.
TapDuncan
Jun 22 2008, 02:29 PM
Well I still love them; you don't have to hit Shift either.
CWV
Jun 22 2008, 02:34 PM
QUOTE (TapDuncan @ Jun 22 2008, 02:54 PM)

Well I still love them; you don't have to hit Shift either.
That's another thing, I use the colon way more than the semi-colon, I think their places on the key-board ought to be reversed.
And while I'm at it, I think @ ought to be available without that pesky shift button.
Alfredo
Jun 22 2008, 02:45 PM
QUOTE (j2nyc @ Jun 22 2008, 11:53 AM)

Semicolons are used in excess in programming languages. They aren't dead. They just moved out of town.
You are absolutely right.
I use them a lot more when I'm using certain coding languages such as HTML
TapDuncan
Jun 22 2008, 02:52 PM
I agree, I think the shift key should be removed, what we need are more keys, then, I would type as fast as ya'll, oh and another thing, when you're a south westerner, your dialect is different, so key boards should be aligned as such. We like symbols instead of numbers, so separate them. Also what about the swirly thingy that we use in Spanish for above the n, like in montana, see it needs the swirly thing above the second n, where is it? Oh never mind, I found it ~, but I can't place it above a letter.
who
Jun 22 2008, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (Alfredo @ Jun 22 2008, 03:10 PM)

You are absolutely right.
I use them a lot more when I'm using certain coding languages such as HTML
Well...programing uses of semi-colons are something like the Japanese assimilation of American idioms wherein the Japanese version bears no relation to colloquial meaning.
The sad fate of the semi-colon in prose is more a result of the semi-colon being superfluous -- I much prefer the urgency and momentum imparted by the use of a dash to the sometimes puzzling ambiguity of the the compromised semi-colon. Is
it a colon? Is it a period? Is it a comma with attitude? WTF is it doing there?
LibLaw
Jun 22 2008, 03:54 PM
QUOTE (CWV @ Jun 22 2008, 02:59 PM)

That's another thing, I use the colon way more than the semi-colon, I think their places on the key-board ought to be reversed.
And while I'm at it, I think @ ought to be available without that pesky shift button.
Your sure thats all?.
CatBallou
Jun 22 2008, 04:23 PM
QUOTE (CWV @ Jun 22 2008, 02:59 PM)

That's another thing, I use the colon way more than the semi-colon, I think their places on the key-board ought to be reversed.
Concur, CWV.
I think their present juxtapositioning is a relic from times long past, when the semicolon was used more frequently than the colon.
Here's some information regarding the proper usage:
http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/punct/col-semi.htmlTap, on the tilde? I need to use it quite often, so my solution was to translate something over in Babelfish, then copy the most-used words and paste them into my StickyNotes thusly:
Señor
Señora
Señorita
Cumpleaños
años
Español
Or, you can use these nifty shortcuts:
Alt + 0241/164 → ñ (for PCs)
Option key + n, and then “n” → ñ/Ñ (for Mac)
I can't use the above shortcuts because I spilled something on my "special" Mac keyboard, so I'm presently using a combination of a regular keyboard, and an eMac; which means naturally, I no longer have an OPTION or APPLE key (wah!)
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=20801
egghead
Jun 22 2008, 07:03 PM
QUOTE (who @ Jun 22 2008, 03:12 PM)

. . .
The sad fate of the semi-colon in prose is more a result of the semi-colon being superfluous -- I much prefer the urgency and momentum imparted by the use of a dash to the sometimes puzzling ambiguity of the the compromised semi-colon. Is
it a colon? Is it a period? Is it a comma with attitude? WTF is it doing there?
Au contraire: I believe the COLON is making a comeback . . .
The dash should NOT be overused. This rule was handed down by the English police from atop the mountain they live on.
Personally, I simply adore the dash and its urgency.

I have even taken license in adding more than one or two at times --- depending on degree of rage at the moment.
The semicolon is the most complicated stop (semi-stop?).
I tend to use the semicolon when listing long successive thoughts that seem to be related - when the comma just won't do. Of course, when the semicolon gets tricky is when you are making the decision as to whether to use the semicolon or the dash; and that is why the dash has taken over the semicolon. The urgency is here ---- right NOW.
Dan-From-LA
Jun 22 2008, 07:13 PM
QUOTE (egghead @ Jun 22 2008, 06:28 PM)

Au contraire: I believe the COLON is making a comeback . . .
The dash should NOT be overused. This rule was handed down by the English police from atop the mountain they live on.
Personally, I simply adore the dash and its urgency.

I have even taken license in adding more than one or two at times --- depending on degree of rage at the moment.
The semicolon is the most complicated stop (semi-stop?).
I tend to use the semicolon when listing long successive thoughts that seem to be related - when the comma just won't do. Of course, when the semicolon gets tricky is when you are making the decision as to whether to use the semicolon or the dash; and that is why the dash has taken over the semicolon. The urgency is here ---- right NOW.

In French, it is used to distinquish elements within a list. However, it is discouraged as a way to link related clauses or phrases together in lieu of using the proper
article défini or personnel pronom. Instead, the use of que or qui is encouraged. But that's the French. Mais non?
Ed-Kay
Jun 22 2008, 07:27 PM
As for me, I seem to have an addiction, to of all things, the comma!
Alfredo
Jun 22 2008, 07:36 PM
QUOTE (Ed-Kay @ Jun 22 2008, 04:52 PM)

As for me, I seem to have an addiction, to of all things, the comma!
Same here, I have a real serious problem with run-on sentences. I often proofread what I type and I end up having to break up sentences because of my love for commas.
roborok
Jun 22 2008, 07:39 PM
QUOTE (Ed-Kay @ Jun 22 2008, 04:52 PM)

As for me, I seem to have an addiction, to of all things, the comma!
Yep me too!

I'm not even sure I know what a semi-colon is!

Is this it ; ?

If it is I haven't used that since I was in school!!
egghead
Jun 22 2008, 07:49 PM
QUOTE
In French, it is used to distinquish elements within a list.
That, and this too:
I know I wasn't clear, when I mentioned successive thoughts (lists). I meant to say long thoughts in succession - a list: my colon hurts in spring and winter; my liver acts up during Octoberfest; my heart drags in February; and my soul flutters when you are near . . .
QUOTE (Dan-From-LA @ Jun 22 2008, 06:38 PM)

In French, it is used to distinquish elements within a list. However, it is discouraged as a way to link related clauses or phrases together in lieu of using the proper article défini or personnel pronom. Instead, the use of que or qui is encouraged. But that's the French. Mais non?
Using que or qui would be a Mark Twain device, I think?

The Twainer never understood why the French did not understand their own language when he was there speaking their language.
georgia
Jun 22 2008, 08:35 PM
I love them all. The colon and comma let me: list the innumerous faults of the current administration, argue issues point by point, and most importantly, backup my own opinions with links. The semi-colon lets me be concise; no conjunctions required. Dashes can drive points home - strong opinions deserve strong punctuation. Unfortunately, I can't find the dash on my keyboard, so its cousin, the hyphen has to do, but it has a well-deserved functioon too. The other mark I can't seem to find is the one for interogative exclamatory rhetoric. WHERE THE HELL IS IT?! I'd gladly give up my "Scroll Lock" for something that would get much more use. All the others? Well, I couldn't operate unix or program in perl without them, so thanks, tilde, hash, braces, brackets, parenthesis, tick, back-tick, arrows, caret, asterik, and ampersand.
who
Jun 22 2008, 09:22 PM
QUOTE (georgia @ Jun 22 2008, 09:00 PM)

I love them all. The colon and comma let me: list the innumerous faults of the current administration, argue issues point by point, and most importantly, backup my own opinions with links. The semi-colon lets me be concise; no conjunctions required. Dashes can drive points home - strong opinions deserve strong punctuation. Unfortunately, I can't find the dash on my keyboard, so its cousin, the hyphen has to do, but it has a well-deserved functioon too. The other mark I can't seem to find is the one for interogative exclamatory rhetoric. WHERE THE HELL IS IT?! I'd gladly give up my "Scroll Lock" for something that would get much more use. All the others? Well, I couldn't operate unix or program in perl without them, so thanks, tilde, hash, braces, brackets, parenthesis, tick, back-tick, arrows, caret, asterik, and ampersand.
I used to use them but, after a number of years of using them to cobble together strings of independent clauses and fragments, came to feel that they were just a device that I was using to impart an appearance of order to run-on sentences.
I like dashes and create them by teaming up a pair of hyphens -- it gives my important opinions more oomph. Perhaps I am simply being strident. For example I might have punctuated your example above as: The dash lets me be punchy and concise --
no conjunctions required!Of course in any discussion of the current administration, all of these devices can be useful:
............/´¯/)
.........,/¯../ /
........./..../ /
..../´¯/'...'/´¯¯.`·¸
./'/.../..../.....:^.¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯_/'...'/
\.................'...../
.'\'...\.......... _.·´
...\..............(
RealLiberal1
Jun 22 2008, 09:27 PM
QUOTE (TapDuncan @ Jun 22 2008, 01:47 PM)

Oh man I love the semi-colon; it really ties the room together.
Especially with the right drapes.
georgia
Jun 22 2008, 09:56 PM
QUOTE (who @ Jun 22 2008, 09:47 PM)

Of course in any discussion of the current administration, all of these devices can be useful:
............/´¯/)
.........,/¯../ /
........./..../ /
..../´¯/'...'/´¯¯.`·¸
./'/.../..../.....:^.¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯_/'...'/
\.................'...../
.'\'...\.......... _.·´
...\..............(
Now that's a creative use of punctutation.
captainkona
Jun 22 2008, 10:57 PM
I only use it when I run out of commas.
bushwa
Jun 22 2008, 11:01 PM
QUOTE (who @ Jun 22 2008, 06:47 PM)

...came to feel that they were just a device that I was using to impart an appearance of order to run-on sentences...
Bingo! Guilty here, too... as longtime readers here might imagine.
egghead
Jun 23 2008, 10:30 AM
I just think of the semi-colon as a long comma. But I confess, I don't really care for it, unless used for lists. The reading of countless clauses thought to be related by the writer can become tedious.
(Oh my gosh, is this another pick at Bushwa. If it is, I know nothing, because I don't usually read Bushwa's writing. I plead innocence.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You boys really need to stop the passive aggression, period, end of sentence.
(Obviously, I prefer the period to the semi-colon.)
ubabrba
Jun 23 2008, 10:39 AM
Sinisterblogger
Jun 23 2008, 10:43 AM
I use semi-colons all the time; they're quite useful when stringing together two complete sentences into one.
bushwa
Jun 23 2008, 12:30 PM
QUOTE (egghead @ Jun 23 2008, 07:55 AM)

...
(Oh my gosh, is this another pick at Bushwa. If it is, I know nothing, because I don't usually read Bushwa's writing. I plead innocence.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You boys really need to stop the passive aggression, period, end of sentence. ...
Huh, talk about passive aggressive.
egghead
Jun 23 2008, 12:38 PM
QUOTE (bushwa @ Jun 23 2008, 11:55 AM)

Huh, talk about passive aggressive.
JUst addressing a problem I see -- in a
direct fashion. What's wrong with that? You two need to make up.
In this regard, I am a paying member of MOVEON.org.
bushwa
Jun 23 2008, 01:18 PM
QUOTE (egghead @ Jun 23 2008, 10:03 AM)

You two need to make up.
Who two? Me and the semicolon? I'll never talk to that slut again!
QUOTE (egghead @ Jun 23 2008, 10:03 AM)

In this regard, I am a paying member of MOVEON.org.
As am I (though I thought the Patreaus ad was dumb). I'm also with the ACLU, and have stuck with
People for the American Way since the first month Norman Lear kick started it almost 30 years ago - the first bastion of liberalism that formally declared war on Christian fundamentalism! Sorry to say they're not as publicly confrontational as they once were, though I think hey still take most of the right positions, and have expanded far beyond fundamentalism.
X-Ray-Spex
Jun 23 2008, 01:53 PM
Ooh, check out the grammar nerds.
I'll have to read this thread later.
TammyStickers
Jun 23 2008, 02:01 PM
I hate wishy-washy punctuation marks. It should decide to be a full colon or none at all. This flip-flopping punctuation marks strikes me as being a bit too McCainish for my tastes.
Now the exclamation mark. That is a piece of punctuation that has really made up its mind!!!
georgia
Jun 23 2008, 02:06 PM
QUOTE (TammyStickers @ Jun 23 2008, 02:26 PM)

Now the exclamation mark. That is a piece of punctuation that has really made up its mind!!!
Yet you need three to make a point? I DON'T NEED IT AT ALL.
egghead
Jun 23 2008, 02:46 PM
QUOTE (bushwa @ Jun 23 2008, 12:43 PM)

Who two? Me and the semicolon? I'll never talk to that slut again!
. . .
That's good. Now we're making progress.
TapDuncan
Jun 23 2008, 02:55 PM
Catballou--LOve your monicker, and thanks for the info, although I doubt I will ever remember it; it is interesting. Nevertheless when I was college I was always told that I have too many run on sentences and I thought this prof. is crazy, he doesn't know what he is talking about, oh he's a big English Prof. and thinks he knows it all, well he doesn't, and I don't care what he thinks anyway, because I write like I think, which is in one long run on sentence.
egghead
Jun 23 2008, 03:10 PM
QUOTE (TapDuncan @ Jun 23 2008, 02:20 PM)

Catballou--LOve your monicker, and thanks for the info, although I doubt I will ever remember it; it is interesting. Nevertheless when I was college I was always told that I have too many run on sentences and I thought this prof. is crazy, he doesn't know what he is talking about, oh he's a big English Prof. and thinks he knows it all, well he doesn't, and I don't care what he thinks anyway, because I write like I think, which is in one long run on sentence.
CatBallou

Would expect no less from her, picking such a perfect avvie. The woman knows her movies, always.
Despised my English teacher with the red pencil (is why I used a non-colored pencil).
I had to teach this stuff, and that's when I learned a little something.
Really, most of what I pick up is from reading. Watching how they write and punctuate.
TapDuncan
Jun 23 2008, 03:29 PM
Eggy--Right on, I learned to write by reading, wow, what a concept!!! Tolstoy, run on king...JK. Maybe not.
ubabrba
Jun 23 2008, 03:35 PM
QUOTE (TammyStickers @ Jun 23 2008, 02:26 PM)

I hate wishy-washy punctuation marks. It should decide to be a full colon or none at all. This flip-flopping punctuation marks strikes me as being a bit too McCainish for my tastes.
Now the exclamation mark. That is a piece of punctuation that has really made up its mind!!!
I'm glad the semicolon doesn't take itself so seriously - it doesn't have to. Right click > View Page Source: as I write this, this page has a total of 1099 semicolons in the HTML code!
TapDuncan
Jun 23 2008, 03:39 PM
Only one more needed!!!
Here it is;
bushwa
Jun 23 2008, 04:24 PM
QUOTE (TapDuncan @ Jun 23 2008, 01:04 PM)

Only one more needed!!!
Here it is;
Dammit, it's like a post count. Now that you're at 1,100, gotta shoot for 1,500.
I confess - every time I do contemplate using the semi-colon, I have to look up the rules again to make I'm using it correctly.
I'm much more into inventing my own punctuation, what some call "bad punctuation." Witness the hyphen in the line above. As long as the damned punctuation marks are INSIDE THE QUOTATION MARKS (always, always, always), I'm happy.
ubabrba
Jun 23 2008, 04:28 PM
QUOTE (bushwa @ Jun 23 2008, 04:49 PM)

I'm much more into inventing my own punctuation, what some call "bad punctuation." Witness the hyphen in the line above. As long as the damned punctuation marks are INSIDE THE QUOTATION MARKS (always, always, always), I'm happy.
Personally, I am a huge fan of the ellipsis...
X-Ray-Spex
Jun 23 2008, 04:32 PM
QUOTE (ubabrba @ Jun 23 2008, 04:53 PM)

Personally, I am a huge fan of the ellipsis...
So am I...
I still use the semi-colon. I make a lot of lists at work and the semi-colon as I use it indicates that a list is to follow.
ChiffonBreath
Jun 23 2008, 04:48 PM
QUOTE (TapDuncan @ Jun 22 2008, 02:47 PM)

Oh man I love the semi-colon; it really ties the room together.
Me too because the use of the semicolon can render good literature to read like poetry.
Example: ..."You wouldn't go as a stranger; I would furnish you with documentation from several highly influential men who would vouch for you. You would have to take a little time of course and get acquainted with the old gentleman. You have special eqipment for handling him, because you are an art authority and he is the world's greatest art collector; also you are Hitler's friend, and Hearst has met the Führer, and I know how tremendously he has been impressed." (Upton Sinclair, "A World to Win")
It's perfect for writing out dialogue.
When to use the semicolon
ChiffonBreath
Jun 23 2008, 04:53 PM
QUOTE (ubabrba @ Jun 23 2008, 04:53 PM)

Personally, I am a huge fan of the ellipsis...
Hahaha context is everything!
TapDuncan
Jun 23 2008, 04:55 PM
I was gonna say something; but I forgot was I was gonna say!!!
pestone
Jun 24 2008, 10:23 PM
"A semi-colon is better than a colostomy bag"- Tao Jones
Grammar geeks, indeed. I confess. I was thrilled to get that typewriter for my thirteenth birthday! I had an English teacher in H.S. who was not quite a Grammar Nazi, but she had it codified, let me tell you. Punctuation was corrected with codes like "P 2-3" and such. You had to go back to her key and see what your infraction was.
I wrote a lot of the copy (and typed all of it) for a little acting troupe years ago. I was once very gratified to hear someone who had perused my copy say:"Ah, someone who knows how to use a semi-colon." I have to be careful about it myself, because my sentences will run merrily on if not checked.
You can tell how much someone reads by how they write. What gets me is that any idiot with a keyboard can fancy themself a writer. Sheesh. At LEaSt ThE faD oF ALTernAtING caPs ANd LoWeR_CasE is mercifully over.
I would avoid anything written in that mode out of general principles.
Anyone remember the "cents" sign on the typewriter keyboard? Where'd that one go?
Speaking of cents, has anyone gotten a 2008 penny, yet? (Coin geek, too) I'm in the restaurant biz, and usually get a new penny in the spring. Not yet.
TammyStickers
Jun 25 2008, 09:05 AM
QUOTE (X-Ray-Spex @ Jun 23 2008, 04:57 PM)

So am I...
I still use the semi-colon. I make a lot of lists at work and the semi-colon as I use it indicates that a list is to follow. But the eliipsis is not really a punctuation mark. It is really three punctuation marks who have gone off by itself and declared all other punctuation marks "punctuation non-grata". It is just a bunch of periods that have punctuationally cleansed the area.
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