Me too. I can't believe Randi spent three hours on this again today. I usually agree with her on about everything but she is really wrong on this and can't admit it, maybe because of her military experience, and that is understandable. But Clark didn't say anything wrong at all. McPain IS running on his military experience and that makes it fair game. The only tv commercials I have seen of his were about his military service or his father and grandfather's service. All of his surrogates talk about it all the time too.

Clark is absolutely right. McCain is a war hero. Being a war hero doesn't qualify you to be president (or disqualify you). McPain lacks the judgement and leadership skills needed to be president. Period. 'Nuff said. Move on now.

wait, i thought it was made very clear this was rumor only and to this point there hasnt been any substantiation of this

These facts do make you, your brothers and your father patriots, one and all.

True, this alone isn't enough of a resume to allow a person to obtain a Presidental type of appeal to voters. But it is a good start.

In regards to General Clark's statement being made as a reply to a question/statement by Mister Bob Schieffer, frankly, it doesn't matter. He made the statement. Reminds me of the "Phony Soldiers" comment that many tried to hang around the neck of Mister Rush Limbaugh. His (Limbaugh's) quote was also made in response to a statement.

Both Mister Limbaugh and General Clark are media savy. Even the best of them can be tripped up. Particularly when their quotes are used out of context and the meanings of their words deliberately changed.

Go ahead, have a verbal spate over intramural dogmas on this. I believe that Ms. Rhodes is arguing that this current General Clark Brewhaha and the Vietnam War may have a common aspect.

Wrong War at the Wrong time.

Best,

No kidding! I actually regret having listened to two days of this...

I called myself sexist? LOL... Nice revisionist history. You and I both know what happened. You called me sexist for attacking a "girl" because you're a sexist, and you couldn't argue the point. In fact, you were sexist in your comments, and you still refuse simply to apologize for acting like a kid that got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.






Wha?







Take a valium, and relax. Now understand that Randi always says she's all about facts, and we're not supposed to believe her, but check out what she says. She's way off base on this one, and if you'd remove your head from her posterior for a minute and take a breath, you'd understand that.

She's wrong, she should correct herself, get over it.






Mr. High Road did not "win", he threw Clarke under the bus.



Seriously, you need to stop idolizing Randi, and understand that sometimes she's wrong. She needs to realize that also and stop bashing her "own team" based on bullshit spin by the right wingers. She's just as bad as the right wing hit machine, but she's attacking her own party.

This isn't about cable tv ratings, it's about Randi attacking Clarke for something he didn't say.

There's a big difference between saying Clarke said something stupid, as it can be spun by the media, and agreeing with the spin.

Clarke did not disparage McCain's service, in fact he did quite the opposite.

How is implying that Clarke was attaking McCain's service a reasonable opinion?

I could be of the opinion that Obama is a Muslim, does that mean in your mind that it would be fine if I had a radio show and ranted and raved about it while ignoring the facts?

People are free to say whatever they want, but people are also free to disagree and be upset when someone's character is assasinated based on bullshit.

How do you know?

And if she watched the entire show in context, how could she be so off base on this issue?

That's exactly the point.

The right wing media will attack Clarke regardless of what he said. Why is Randi doing the same?

Is she now part of the right wing media? I've never heard anyone in the right wing media call Clinton a fucking whore, or a bitter old bitch, and I have yet to hear anyone I'd consider liberal attack Clarke based on this issue.

High road, wtf are you talking about?

You think it's fine that she's smearing Clarke because what he said is being spun by the righties?

Is there a list somewhere of topics that liberals aren't allowed to talk about?

If indeed Clarke is "taking one for the team", there isn't much of a team. Anyone buying into this crap is throwing Clarke under the bus.

it would seem the whole affair has been unhelpful...i am hoping we can go on to the next problem and forget this happened

for the sake of the election

Please...

So anyone that says anything that Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh spin and use to attack should be cast out of the party...

We wouldn't all have to be hearing about this if Randi wasn't an echo chamber for the right wing media.

You can and should expect this BS from the right wing, but not from what is supposed to be the nation's no. 1 liberal talker.

So we're all supposed to just shut up and agree?

Seems to me everyone here was pissed at Kerry for not fighting back. Now we're endorsing attacking anyone that says something the righties can spin?

disagree, very much...the media likes Obama very much, dont worry about that.

the media likes whatever sells airtime and commercials, news isnt news anymore, it is entertainment...
i dont see anywhere other than faux the media preferring mccain, i dont see that at all...

Randi is suffering from hero worship. Every grunt who sets foot in a war zone is a hero and no one can say anything that isn't gushing praise.

Not only is Randi attacking Clarke, she's also supporting Obama's cowardly position on the new FISA bill. The FISA "court" is a joke, not a true judicial review. I guess it's okay with Randi if the politicians who swore to uphold and defend the Constitution go ahead and shred it since Obama has put forth a "convincing" argument for it. But it's just a political argument, not a logical or legal argument.

I've listened to Randi for the last time. I'm not going to listen to the ravings of a loudmouthed coward who's more afraid of terrorists from the Middle East than the far more dangerous terrorists in Congress.

Wow.

So now if you say something Obama doesn't like, you're an outcast?

I thought Obama was supposed to be different. You know, high road, honesty, truth...

Lying about what Clarke said is not opinion.

How?

Since Hillary has dropped out, Obama has been sprinting to the right. He's now abandoned someone that said nothing wrong for political expediancy? I thought Obama was supposed to be against politics as usual...

Come on you are exaggerating a bit. Clark has not been thrown under any bus.

\


If anyone lost out of this entire debate, it is Randi. I think alot of people listening to the show today and reading this forum, have a different take on Randi's thought process, than they did before. I know, I do.

I was wondering how this was Hillary's fault...

I think Randi needs to go to Hillary rehab.

Just lay in the cut and ride it out.



No Apologies From Obama

But as Ben Smith notes, Obama -- having already rejected Clark's statements yesterday -- just isn't prepared to allow himself to fall further back on defense and won't cede McCain any moral high ground.

Is it then your opinion that Clarke arranged for Schieffer to ask the question so he could underhandedly sabotage Obama at the Clinton's behest?

WTF is wrong with you people? How far are you going to go rather than just admit on this issue Randi is wrong, but now she's entrenched in her BS so she's not going to back down?

How on earth could any reasonable person blame Hillary Clinton for this?

No, General Clark need not be cast out of the Democratic Party.

Maybe someone should talk to him about the big fat softballs that he slowly underhand tosses to the Right Wing Commentators who then knock them out of the park of public opinion ...................

Best Hardball,

i am a little surprised by randi's remarks, but maybe because she was a vet, she had a little sympathy for mccain, for whatever reason.

For the first time I actually turned the show OFF. I couldn't take more of the ongoing rant and the way Randi was treating callers that disagreed. I think one of them was military because he addressed her as "Mam" and was super courteous. He eventually just said goodbye... Sunburn?

For some time now, and all too often, I have been hearing the media on interview programs and talking heads, make statements which clearly give the impression that McCain's military service makes him better qualified to protect us from terrorists and to deal with international conflicts. No one, until now, has had the cojones to address this fallacy/myth.
I applaud General Clarke. Apparently, he gets it and is as trouble by it as are many Obama supporters.

I see no swiftboating here. He spoke the truth and went out of his way to separate his comments from any attacks on McCain's military service, honor, patriotism, etc., however, many will chose not to hear that for their own personal reasons.

seems i'm just repeating what many have stated...
i totally disagree with Randi! She's WAY off!
I'm listening to the podcast, but truly can't take any more. Sorry, Randi!

I am a vet and I have zero sympathy for McCain. He fought the latest GI bill tooth and nail, and then when Bush was forced to sign it, he acted like he was for it. McCain is a dirt bag and anyone that sticks up for him, isn't much better in my opinion....

The Out rage Only Sets To Profit Advantages Of The Attacked.

The Barack Obama Presidential Campaign Is To Abate Hate and not Overstate the obvious.

To Give Red Meat To the swift boat lobbyist To Generate Much Needed Fake Out Rage So Their Diversions Can Be Staged.

Yes Barack Obama Got Some Presidential Insight In To Americas Plight By Visiting A Food Pantry And Clothing Distribution Center
In Zanesville Today Just Up From Where My Daddy Had His Little Store Front Church Back In The 60’s

The Central Ohio Food Pantries Where Busy To Day For Being The first Of the Month According To What I Know
Cause My Wife Volunteers And Runs One Hear In Newark Ohio.


Cindy McCain Refuses to Release Her Tax Returns... Ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vZi6QqFSH4...feature=related

John & Cindy McCain Secret Sex Tape?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjVDaMDiud0...feature=related

John McCain's Wife Hiding War Profits, Untaxed Off-Shore Accounts?
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blo..._war_profits_un

Click to view attachment

OK, so I'm back. I watched Clarke and most importantly, I went and I did my RR homework.

My conclusion even more is that this was a tabloid move by Clarke. I don't know what the motive is, because it certainly did take away the limelight from what was supposed to be another pivotal and important speech by Obama. Could Clarke be an agent for this Party Unity My Ass movement? Don't know.

What was telling (and you can read this in the homework for today) is that Clarke said he had been saying this opinion about McCain's service over the past few weeks. Also Clarke said, "I honor John McCain's character and I said...he's been one of my heroes for a long time. I like John McCain. He's been over to my house and everything."

So I'm confused what the motive was here. Certainly not to help Obama. Was it really more to help McCain? (By indirectly associating Obama with this statement?) Could Clarke be vying for a position in a McCain cabinet? Either way, I don't trust Clarke at all now. And we probably shouldn't trust anyone formerly attached to the Clinton cabinet and inner cycle right now as well to be really helping Obama...

Clark may be a plant. I'm admitting my ignorance in spite of still believing that what he said needed to be said.

Obama might have been in on it. Who in the world can say anymore.

OK, let's say that it would have been wiser for Clark not to have brought up the point about McCain's service not qualifing him for the Oval Office. So, WHY IS RANDI SPENDING SO MUCH TIME NATIONALLY EXCORIATING CLARK IF THIS IS AN ISSUE BEST NOT BROUGHT UP?

Moreover, she's claiming she "knows" that Clark intentionally "swiftboated" McCain. First of all, how does she know Clark's intentions? Is she now a mind reader? Second of all, "swiftboating" means the use of lies to smear another's character. But Clark merely said the truth. That's not "swiftboating!"

Yes, this is indeed a BAD DAY AT THE MIC.

Randi spends too much time on this subject.
I believe on this she echoes too much the line Obama said about honoring McCain's service.

And it's not about service, but rather about qualifications to run an administration.
If McCain has paid someone to put together an organisation and anyone else who might oppose him politically has actually constructed such an organisation from the ground up; that political opponent would be better qualified to run that organisation, because he built that organisation.
Clark has the right to voice his views on who he thinks should manage an administration.
Randi doesn't approach this topic from an objective point IMHO.

McCain a hero? What's the definition of a hero? Here's one : A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life. How much courage does it take to drop a bomb from 10,000 feet on someone's head? Cliche, I know, but I don't find that feat in any way notable in respect to the rest of humanity. Killing is one of the most common, ignoble, instinctual acts humans have engaged in down thru history. So, I don't find that behavior remarkable or exceptional. On the other hand, to resist one's natural inclination, that would be notable perhaps even heroic. Isn't it the ability to overcome natural instincts, which we find admirable in a hero, such as the fireman who overcomes self-preservation while rescuing someone from a burning building? I believe it is. McCain didn't overcome his primitive instinct to kill. McCain is no hero. It's a myth. The hero myth. It's the same myth governments have used thoughout history to convince people to kill each other. Not that they needed much convincing. And it's the same myth Randi is using to convince us that McCain is a hero. Personally, I don't believe in myths.

BTW, please don't respond that his time/actions as POW were heroic. You can't commit great acts of villainy, then be considered a hero for enduring the punishment. That's karma.

Randi's getting a bit too conservative for my taste. First it was the oil speculator issue, in which McCain, Lieberman, O'Reilly, some oil company flunkies, and an equity fund manager who avoids taxes by hiding his assets in the Virgin Islands all found themselves on the same side of the issue as Randi. Now this. What's going on?

Randi seems to be hung up on anything military. As a Vietnam draftee (Reg AF) I know a lot of us have intimate knowledge of the subject but not a positive bias. Clark was clearly "Swift boated" (by orig. swiftboaters!) and they have completely twisted his very accurate words about MCCain's Exec. experience or lack of it. To be sucked into this media propaganda is to become part of the problem or, in other words, a Republican. Also the rationalizations on the FISA bill are just that, false rationalizations. Nothing Criminal will ever be acted on now given the high standards required. Also, whats with the "Tin Foil Hat" Establishment smears? Just how many major conspiracies do you need to call it what it is. (Re: steel framed buildings are always detonated with thermite to bring them down since fires can't!!)

You can be right, and McCain can be our next President. I think that is where she is coming from. You just listed about 5 things that 98 percent of the public know nothing about and will not factor into their decision making process. Do you know how much time and work it would take to get majority of the voting public too where you are at? A lot more then 4 months.

Randi declared that the subject arose one way, then read verbatim the transcript demonstrating she was absolutely wrong. Scheifer DID specifically list the POW experience as one of MCCain's qualifications - right along with McCain's slot as a squadron commander, Senate committee service, and later referenced his having been shot down, which Clark immediately responded to with now supposedly infamous quote.

I thought it interesting Randi went immediately from the transcript reading into the commercial. She'd just reamed out two callers, went to commercial, came back and then proved them dead-on right, and went immediately again to a commercial. Hey, maybe that is the usual timing for spots, maybe it was a coincidence.

All that said, of COURSE the McCain camp outrage is manufactured. If this campaign never saw another point discussed for the remaining 3-4 months aside from McCain's POW status, they'd be tickled. Many voters, though not us, eat that shit up with a spoon, and consciously or otherwise mark it up as a "qualification for office. THAT's why I agree with those who say discussing the POW experience serves McCain, not anyoe else.

I was also interested to hear today that it was Randi Rhodes who convinced MSNBC that a liberal voice could be successful, and that she was then also in large part responsible for Keith Olbermann's success, though she says he and the network have treated her very badly since then.

Weird freakin' show today, folks.

One more time - the truth:

Bob Schieffer: Well you, you went so far as to say that you thought John McCain was, quote, and these are your words, "untested and untried," And I must say I, I had to read that twice, because you're talking about somebody who was a prisoner of war. He was a squadron commander of the largest squadron in the Navy. He's been on the Senate Armed Services Committee for lo these many years. How can you say that John McCain is un- untested and untried? General?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it-'

Bob Schieffer: Well-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: ' -it publicly.' He hasn't made those calls, Bob.

Bob Schieffer: Well, well, General, maybe-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So-

Bob Schieffer: Could I just interrupt you. If-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure.

Bob Schieffer: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President.


Bing - bang - boom. It couldn't be clearer. I'm amazed the "debate" continues.

I don't agree w/ Randi on this in terms of saying Clark is swift boating McCain but her main point that I agree with is that Clark said something that didn't need to be said and that he should have known it WOULD be red meat for McCain and the media and he continues to put out the bait.

Randi's attacking Clark for damaging Obama campaign and serving notice if it's part of Clinton sabotage.

Not simply an attack for saying something.

Maybe Randi's just trying to catapult the propaganda?

Loser, Hammerhead, because you just can't move on, sad. And yes, you called yourself a sexist. Truth. Stop going off topic. Very unprofessional.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just put it like this: I agree with the words of Eyes, Dan and L-Rey. Lot of newbies here today, I see they get to start new threads. Wonder where they came from all of a sudden. Kind of like the timing of Hammerhead.

The rest of ya need to put your thinking hats on and hold down your knees, stop and listen and most of all read. Oh, and take a lesson in politics 101. There IS no emotion in politics. And that is what everyone is exercising here, their emotion, not their reason.

Others put this tempest in the teapot, certainly not Randi. REmember at least that much.

I'm quite sure Randi, who supports Obama, like many others here do, will choose not to spend anymore time on this rubbish. Clark needs to fade into the background. His 15 minutes are over, or maybe the truth will come out as to what his intentions were. Either he does not know how to speak in public, or he is very shrewd now. Wouldn't be the first polititican who sold out overnight for a dollar. Also, Clark is a part of the media.

I met Clark personally in '04. He was green then (newbie) and had his stump speech memorized. He struck me as a humble man (both he AND his family) in both stature and demeanor. That was four years ago.

Btw, the liberal vets are on Obama's side on this.

There you go again with that suspicious reporter mind of yours.

You really should've called Randi today, as I suggested.

I think that using the argument that Clarke said " something that he shouldn't have said", is beyond stupid, and shows that people can't use reason when they hear someone say something in a debate. Clarke basically said "That he did not think “riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president. OK, all the McCain sympathizers think this is wrong.. If anyone thinks that Clarke is wrong on this, then please do the rest of us a favor, and explain how it is wrong. please enlighten us all, and tell us how getting shot down in a fighter plane does qualify someone to be President....

I agree with you. Clark is a military man. He knows that sitting in a fighter jet and pushing a button to drop bombs on people isn't a qualification for president. And let's not forget that he was a LOUSY fighter pilot. McCain was a truly bad Navy pilot. He's no hero. As a matter of fact, it's been said that the day he was shot down, he was flying out of formation. Did he contribute to his getting shot down? Who knows. But since he'd crashed 5 planes prior to being shot down, it's anyone's guess.
Thing is, RANDI IS WRONG ON THIS. We all like Randi. If we didn't we wouldn't be here. But she's not right about everything. And on this point she's off base. Clark said what he said in response to a question posed. What was he supposed to say? That McCain was a truly great fighter pilot and he would be fabulous as president? Clark knows that merely sitting in a fighter jet doesn't qualify anyone to be president. Your actions in battle might make you a real hero, but on that account, McCain doesn't qualify.

Tuesday's podcast was the first one I actually had to stop listening to since I started downloading them from day 1 when Randi moved to Nova.

We refer to it as "informed incredulity." Wouldn't it be nice if there had been much more of it nationally in 2000-2007? Oooops, that's right - It's supposed to be applied only to one side. I DO keep forgetting that rule.



In fact, I did. Alas...

I've seen some websites out there ACTUALLY trying to "swift boat" McCain, and that's just plain wrong. I won't stand for that, or be a part of it in any way. McCain was a POW for 5 yrs. for God's sake. He's earned some respect for his military service, WITHOUT QUESTION . . . BUT as much as I think military service is important, obviously, most of our population never serves. Military service is just a part of McCain's public service background, and perhaps in some circumstances, MAY make him a better commander and chief, or it may not. You have to look at the person in total, not just that one aspect, and if anyone's earned the right to say that - it's Gen. Wesley Clarke.

I still think we're arguing over what song the band is going to play next, while the Titanic is sinking. It amazes me the issues that people have focused on in this entire election.

WHAT THE FUCK?!? (I hope it's okay to say FUCK here). You can talk about courage and sacrifice when YOU have served. What have YOU given up for your country? This kind of BS from civilians who've never gotten off their pampered asses to give ONE THING back to the country that has served them, frankly, makes me sick. Maybe after you've volunteered to fly a plain into a war zone, you'll know something about courage.

This is just pathetic. I disagree with McCain on A LOT of issues, A LOT, but if taking shots at his military service is all democrats and Democratic party have, then they really have absolutely nothing to recommend them. I'm ashamed to call myself a Democrat of late, after that sham of a brokered convension from the party of "count the votes," and the shameful behavior of too many democrats, but if Democrats start going down this disgraceful road, they'll lose all the veterans and active military who were moving towards the party. There's no excuse or rationalization for this kind of rampant ignorance.

Just replied to your link: I didn't hear that many supportive call-ins to Randi yesterday.




Well I remember the beginning: Cheney was busily manipulating the media, and a couple of Reuters reporters were the only reporters in the country reporting the truth. From there, it has been touch and go - a real football game in trying to get the truth out to the public. Thank you internet.

I can't understand why McCain's military experience is untouchable. Granted, he was a POW and was tortured. That being said, he supports detainee torture so for me, that's a wash. He was against the New G.I bill, before he was for it and had apparently committed numerous infidelities with female corpsman who were under his command. If he were a democrat, he'd be toast. Why is it the republicans get a free pass to denigrate a democrat's military service (ala Max Cleland, John Kerry, etc.) yet the very moment a republican's service is questioned ALL the media throw their support to the conservatives, including Randi. Up until recently, I thought Obama would absolutely dominate this election, but the rightwing media is painting Obama to be something he's not and people seem to believe the lies. I have friends that are highly educated with doctorate degrees who still think Obama is a Muslim. Why is it that people who seem smart, believe stupid things? I know the media has a lot to do with it, but it really confounds me.

Randi really needs to talk to Rachel Maddow. Rachel always points out that McCain's biography tour after he clinched the Republican nomination literally STOPPED after his return from Vietnam. (And don't give me Randi can't talk to Rachel b/c Rachel is still affiliated with that "other" network bullshit.)

So also don't give me that crap that "nobody" in the McCain camp tries to emphasize McCain's war record. That's complete hogwash.

If there's anybody who is qualified to evaluate someone's military service, it's Genreal Clark, who as TYT pointed out was gravely wounded in Vietnam himself and spent many, many months rehabbing. General Clark doesn't bring this up himself, even though it's just as horrendous as what happened to McCain.

I have to say I'm hugely disappointed. Normally when Randi goes off track like this, she's not quite so thickheaded in listening to reasoned arguments for another point of view.