Randi's comment about Wesley Clark are basically unfounded. She obviously didn't see the whole MTP segment where Clark spoke glowingly of McCain's service and actually said John McCain was one of his heroes. When he spoke about McCain being shot down didn't qualify him to be president he was RESPONDING to an attack on Obama questioning what experience Obama had to be president and his reply was the quote you hear, taken out of context. I'm surprised Randi fell for it.

Wes Clark suffered hellish, life threatening injuries in Vietnam and NEVER talks about them. He was shot four times and despite that was able to call in an airstrike and successfully dispatch his attackers. In Kosovo he saved many lives. He NEVER talks about any of this, while McCain will never let you forget he was a POW.

I totally agree with you here. I wonder how many people who are taking issue with Clark's statements actually have seen the interview in its full form. I did not watch MTP yesterday, since I already have an ulcer, but the more I see of it in snippets here and there, the more context for the comment, the more I have to wonder why everybody is so freakin scared to speak truth to this issue. I love Randi, but I am sick and tired, Randi, and all the other voices I look to for some degree of truth and sanity, to treat McCain's "war hero" status like some kind of sacrosanct political 3rd rail!

Anybody who might be unsure what a war hero is should look up the records of those who have won Bronze Stars, Navy Crosses, DFC's, and CMH's. You will cry!

I respect anyone who has worn the uniform (and acted with honor and humanity while doing so), but there is a fuck load of difference between doing one's duty (including those who served while in captivity) and someone who jumped on a live grenade.

I have heard Vietnam vets call into progressive radio shows and get shouted down trying to draw the distinction between doing what is expected in the line of duty vs going above and beyond what can humanly be expected (aka heroism). Also, I too have never heard ANY of the vets who received our nations highest honors for heroism EVER say anything other than that they were "just doing their duty"

Anyway, as with other HOT issues, the fact that there is an Obama campaign means that we have had to confront a lot of things that would never be touched on in a typical "good ol' boys" election, imo.

Peace

I didn't get to hear the show today, but did hear about Randi's rant. Frankly, I'm pretty surprised. I would have thought Randi would have Clark's back, not McCain's. I've been saying for a while that being a POW does NOT make you qualified to be president, nor does even being a navy flier (something, BTW, at which McCain decidedly did not excel at - he crashed 5 planes, was at the bottom of his Navy class, etc.).

If military experience, even if the experience was not great, makes you more qualified to be president, why is Obama even running?

Fact is, Clark was right. Flying in a jet and getting shot down does NOT make you more qualified to be president. And it's something that Obama could never say, as he has no military experience.

Randi doesn't get it wrong very often, but when she does, she does it in spades.

You know? And it's not only Randi (and I really am happy to have her voice out there), but just about EVERY person on air for our side. I think that we are witnessing a really IMPORTANT point in the strategy of this election. From what I am hearing and seeing today in the cable media, radio, and internet, this is might be the first real shot on McCain from the Obama machine in the general election!!

I hope so. McCain's real record needs to be known. If the truth ever really came out, he'd be toast. But he gets to keep anyone from looking at his record because of the POW status. I know Obama can't say anything about McCain, so having Clark do it is good. Perhaps Obama even told him he would "repudiate" his comments. that way, all the military biggies can fight it out. there are some powerful people who know the truth about McCain. If they had their say, things might really shift.

You know? I think that this "teflon" thing about McCain is very, very, fragile. I thik that in all our heart of hearts we Americans dont think that McCain is a SAFE choice , especially in these times. You know he's going to have a major malfunction or meltdown in the next few months. All it's going to take is the poltical will to launch a few strategic attacks. Today was on of them, imo.

Watch, this is going to get real interesting.

Peace

yeah, I'm really surprised at Randi's remarks criticizing Wes Clark. She is usually better on getting the nuances or the technicalities of what someone said.

Clark wasn't denigrating McSame's service, he just bluntly responded to Bob Schieffer's stupid comment about "riding in a fighter and getting shot down". Schieffer used the phrase, Clark just repeated it. Only someone with the gravitas of Wes Clark could say something like that and I'm glad he did. When everybody's talking about this stupid idea of 'who is ready on day 1', it is important for SOMEBODY to say that military service doesn't make you ready to be handle the duties of President. That statement doesn't demean service, but you can't hold up service or being held as a POW as experience that is presidential.

Come on people. I understand that Obama can't join in those comments not having served and wanting to seem above mudslinging, he has to stay far away from Clark on that [obviously no Clark as VP]. and these comments have to be managed after the initial furor over them -- surrogates have to decry any supposed attack on McCain's service but discuss what Clark actually meant and how "of course, no one would say that military service alone makes a person qualified to be ready to be President on Day 1". But we have to start down the road to weakening McSame's 'military service makes him better/stronger/ready' meme.

>>>>> "Yay!!" to Wes Clark for saying what only he could.

I'm not a vet so I have no opinion about Clark's comment. That said, if being a military "war Hero" was the most important criteria to determine if a person is more qualified than a civilian to be president, if that were true, our country would always have been at war.

McCain had no love for America till he was released from pow camp and back home. He said so.

He didn't join the military for something bigger and greated beyond himself..he did it because it was the family business...he did it for a pay check. That doesn't make him a hero. Nobody I know thinks of Blackwater soldiers as "war heroes", and personally I don't see any difference between McCain and Blackwater soldiers.

And why is it that Republicans could shamelessly attack McCains's "war hero" status when he ran against Bush, and Republicans said John Kerry's war record wasn't real, but Democrats can't question the argument that McCain is the better candidate precisely because he is a "war hero"?

And why hasn't McCain made his war record public? Mccain is n o more "special" than Kerry. McCain should just let his record speak for itself. The longer he takes to release it, the more time he has to doctor it up.

This whole conversation about who is more patriotic is so infantile. Yeah, we're entering into this
ultra-nationalism politik that the Republican lemmings so adore and love to use to make one feel so un-American if they don't goose-step.

We can't let them do this. We all know what is un-American. It's what's happening to America right now. America does torture people - we have the pictures and we have the testimonies. Gas is four dollars a gallon because Cheney and the House of Saud said so. How American is that? We have a housing crisis right now because George Bush deregulated the industry. The list is endless as to what is un-American about John McCain and George Bush. And yes, those two are joined at the hip. Inseperable. As the caller said today John McCain is just like George Bush in that he had connections, he graduated at the bottom of his class, etc. And McCain sells out to lobbyists.

So I have one qualification for a president at this moment, and that's NOT be a crook!! These neocons have completely wiped out the trust, treasure and reputation of this country. Completely wiped clean.

Obama, is the true patriot because he simply really does care about America and has to play the crook's game, and he will. Clark should not have gone near the trap. But, stepping into it did open up an opportunity for Obama to make a great speech about the nuances of patriotism today! And that was a great speech. I can hardly wait for McCain to attempt to out talk Obama in the debates. Not gonna happen.

Anyway, today, with the Clark, McCain and Obama three-way - all political theatre and Obama won with a speech.

Randi makes the KOS......


I'm Furious with Randi Rhodes

I'm on vacation, out in the heartland, aka God's country (I live in the sinful northeast). I'm out driving around in my gas guzzling SUV with the satellite radio tuned to Randi's new Nova M digs (somehow tapped on the dial by the Air America digits), waiting to hear my girl excoriate McSame once again and, hopefully, say something encouraging about the Obama campaign, when out of the blue she launches into a diatribe excoriating General Clark! What's up with that?

First, Randi rips the General for clarifying McSame's non-command experience in the military, absurdly characterizing Clark's criticism as an attack against McSame's "patriotism." My God! What's in Randi's lemonade? General Clark never said a word about McLame's patriotism. I won't repost here the General's actual words because most of us have them memorized by now, but in no way did he attack McCain's patriotism.

John McSame has been touting his military experience and prisoner of war suffering as evidence that he is the guy who can keep America safe and, therefore, is the best person to be POTUS. All Clark did was refute that notion. He said experience as a fighter pilot and prisoner of war does not qualify a person to be commander in chief. Clark is on target.

Not only does that experience (alone) not qualify one to be POTUS (over someone who lacks that experience), to Clark's second point: McSame does not have "command" or "executive" experience, which is the real nugget if you're going to make an argument that military experience makes a better POTUS. That's all Clark said.

To borrow a line from Terrell Owens ("I love me some me"), I love me some Randi Rhodes, so I'm hurting right now.

Somehow, my girl Randi completely missed this point and reacted like Karl Rove instead. What are we to make of this?

Vote on the Poll here -

( I voted bad day at the mic )

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/30/18...2595/814/544316

Wes Clarke was a Clinton supporter, so the facts aren't going to matter to Randi in regards to this issue.

Clarke simply said being a POW isn't qualification to be president. He did not lie about, or smear McCain's military record so it's not a "swiftboating". Clarke is completely correct, the MSM is protecting McCain and smearing Clarke as usual.

Randi needs to correct herself, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

And who is a Hillary supporter. Here we go again. I thought that was over. Unity, man, unity.

This is just another wedgie-wedge over-cooked and put on boil-over by the oil controlled media. I'm just glad Obama got to make his speech today, to set the record straight about patriotism to these flag-waving, lapel wearing torturers.

BTW, Clarke IS part of the media now. Also, I voted for him in '04. When did he last get smeared, I wonder. Not recently.

So you agree Randi is using this wedgie-wedge over-cooked and put on boil-over by the oil controlled media argument against Clarke.

Why do you suppose she's doing this?

Seems to me Randi smeared Clarke today, along with the rest of the bought and paid for media.

Nope, I think they were hot and ready to fry Obama. Get it? I know you do.

Who was hot to fry Obama? Clarke?

Did you bother to read his comments in context, view the clip, or is Randi's off base attack good enough for you?

Do you ever think for yourself?

Seems to me the media is out to fry Clarke. I can understand most media's dislike for anything percieved as liberal, but the only reason Randi would take this out of context and attack is that Clarke was/is a Clinton supporter.

You are correct. Randi's comment had little to do with Wes Clark's comment. I don't understand how she could be so off.

Wes Clark was talking about McCain's qualifications to lead the country, NOT about his patriotism.

What Clark said is obviously true. Being shot down and tortured is not a qualification for leading America. It speaks to McCain's toughness perhaps, and his willingness to at least show up (something Dubya wouldn't have done), but it doesn't rate as a qualification to lead America. On the other hand, being a successful GENERAL, would be a strong indicator of leadership ability.



Randi, this is not rocket science. What gives?!

That was soooo personal, and I'll ignore it, because that's what people say or do when they are losing.
~~~~~~~

This is politics, and you are still reacting with your knee, trying to protect poor Wes Clark.

McCain also went into victim mode today.

And guess who didn't.

(Btw, did you see where Clark stood by his statement tonight?)

Clark IS a member of the media.



Try to look at the gray's of this situation - it's really not black and white.

(Goodnight, I'm sleepy.)

I would have liked to see Randi stand behind the point Clarke was making, because I think it was a valid one. But I see where she is coming from on this. Doesn't matter how well Clarke put his sentiments, he gave them all the soundbytes they needed to do damage to the Obama camp with, and maybe the wiser move politically would have been to steer clear of this area altogether rather than try to march on in. I'm still hopeful Clarke can prevail and that now that this can of worms is opened it will be the McCain camp who stumbles most on this. I think it will turn out to be one of the big media events of the campaign, and in the long run people's futures will be decided by how they react to this in the coming weeks.

Even Randi. And taking the opinion that this should have been verboten territory and Clarke should never have gone there is a position I think will prove to be wise when, at the other end of this, we are all weary of it.

You're the queen of personal, you called me sexist, and said I was picking on a girl for disagreeing with Randi. Shame on you. Why don't you take the high road for a change?



Wes Clarke isn't "poor", I'm stating what he said rather than you and the hosts patently incorrect smear of what he said. If I'm protecting anything, it's the truth. Sorry you have no idea what that is.



And McCain was assisted by Randi's blatently incorrect smear, and Obama throwing Clarke under the bus. Unity, my ass.



Who did'nt go into victim mode? Clarke. He said being a POW is not a qualification for president. He did not lie about McCain's service, nor did he disparage his service.



No. What he said is correct, so I hope he doesn't bow to pressure to change the message in what he said.

Being a POW is not a qualification for president. Obama didn't serve, that doesn't mean he's any less qualified as a presidential candidate.

Not anymore.





There is no gray here.

Clarke did not disparage McCain's service, period. Randi's off base on this issue, and seriously misrepresented what Clarke said.

Bottom line, if dems are going to freak out and distance themselves from everyone that makes a comment that can be misinterpreted and spun by the righties, we're toast.

You expect right wingers to misrepresent a dem to attack, but until a few months ago I didn't think the dems would do it too. How about standing up and defending a guy that said something completely true?

I thought it was more important to be correct than to win the argument with bullshit.

Daily KOS post regarding this matter.

Wrong. You called yourself sexist. AND you assumed something about me that was not in writing, and I suppose you assumed I was a girl in that assumption.





That's just it, I know what he said was true. The picture you paint of "US" is your picture alone.





Not. Clark sets'em up, Barack knocks em down - that's how it wound out. Don't know if all that happened as planned or it just happened. I just know who won today. Instead, all I see here in this thread is everyone wants to attack somebody, pick sides, and point fingers, or whatever it is people do when they participate in such behavior.




Obama did not go into victim mode. He's the one who scored today. And I'm assuming you did not listen to his speech, as you are not listening to me because you said I don't think for myself, which implies something, but I can't figure that out because I don't think for myself.



Seriously, you need to look at the big picture.

This is a tempest in a teapot. Adjustments will be made, mistakes will be made, there will be ups and downs. I for one am done with media generated hysteria. I have seen this over and over and over. Tonights ratings on the cable networks went up over this mischaracterized nonsense.

Beth Fouhy has written an excellent article reporting many of the known facts of this incident. Unfortunately Ms. Fouhy's article appears under the Associated Press (AP) banner. In deference to the intellectual rights of the AP I will not directly quote their wise words nor dare to link to their bulwarks of knowledge. We are not worthy.

CBS moderator Bob Schieffer did point out in the interview with retired General Wesley Clark (which appeared on Face the Nation) that Senator Barak Obama's executive experience was lacking in comparison to Senator McCain. Even though Mister Clark questioned Senator McCain's own executive experience, Mister Schieffer felt that Mister Obama had even less solid ground to stand on in this regard. Mister Schieffer went on to state that Senator Obama hadn't had Senator McCain's Naval leadership experiences nor had he ridden in a fighter plane (sans one wing) that he was forced to bail out of. That is when Mister Clark made the statement, "Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president."

It was a flat out dumb statement to make.

I read the sugar coated praise that Mister Clark tried to use after this self inflicted stinker about Senator McCain's loss of his jet over Vietnam due to surface to air missile fire. Mister Clark had just dug an entrenchment with words alone that no amount of subsequent flattery could raise him above.

I hope and trust that Mister Clark enjoys the view from deep inside his new "Foxhole".

Best Regards,

I noticed you used a direct quote for Clark's remarks but you paraphrased Schieffer. What did Schieffer say immediately preceding Clark's quoted statement. Would Clark's statement have the same impact on a listener or reader it that statement was included.

So you think it IS a qualification for being President, that it in any way improves McCain's qualifications for office?


BTW, among other reasons, I enjoyed the meet-up, those of us who were there came to learn the origins of -

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/ma...layer3460.shtml

This will give the full interview that appeared on Face the Nation (not Meet the Press).

Best Regards,

Being shot down (or sunk) appears to have worked twice in regards to occupants of the Oval office. Is it a qualification as a test by an adverse life experience? Yes. But it isn't a requirement to be the President of the United States.

Mister Clark was polite, true. For those that enjoy being politely insulted, it was a master stroke.

Best Regards, of Course,

What exactly was the insult?

Bottom line:

1) Clark was right. Being shot down does not qualify you to be president.

2) People can't handle the truth. Anytime anyone one the left speaks the truth, it is dissected and spun until the original meaning is lost.

3) When faced with the backlash from the right wing (including media) who have done the dissection and spinning, out of all proportion, the left can't seem to bluster and push the speaker away fast enough.

And beyond being a POW, McCain was a simply awful Navy man...
http://arclightzero.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/mccains-military-career/


That's just for starters. If McCain wants to be president, then we should know how poor a military man he was. Since he's running on his "service" as his qualification, then it should be dissected to show that when it came to being a navy man, he, well, sucked at it.

Americans need to grow a spine. Sometimes the truth might hurt, but then, it's still the truth.

Oh, God, I so agree. But I intend to go after them with this foolishness, by emailing and agitating. Of course my main focus will be attacking their very grave crimes of omission.

Hello IVEATCH, it's been a while.

You have long been a proponent of civility and being respectful towards those whom you discuss in your posts so I must politely admonish you that addressing Wesley Clark as "Mister" is a bit disrespectful. His title even in retirement is GENERAL Clark.....a fact that, along with a distinguished and heroic military career, might qualify him to voice an opinion or two about whether Senator McCain's military years may or may not qualify him as Commander in Chief.

Just being polite.

The democrats all need to get on the same page for once. Wes Clark was right and Bob Scheifer needs to smarten up. Clark was clearly responding to Scheifer's allegation that Obama didn't have military experiece ala McCain. Clark's point was what kind of experience does being shot down give you to be president. Clark clearly didn't denigrate McCain's service and reiterated that as well as saying McCain was a hero of his. The media takes a quote out of context and all hell breaks loose. Randi is known for trying to keep quotes within context and why she chose to back McCain on this one (or Scheifer) is really beyond me. She claims that she watches MTP every week, but if she saw this show, she clearly wouldn't have dissed Wes Clark the way she did. I was shocked when I heard her say this because I had just seen a discussion with Wes Clark Jr. and Cenk Uygur (www.theyoungturks.com) who were able to get to the core of the issue instantly.

I just got back from NY and no Randi for a week. I didn't listen to the show, but, I saw as I sat in Kennedy airport this issue come up on MSNBC as a pundit discussion on Abrams, "verdict" show.

This is an issue that is total OPINION. So Randi has a right to have an opinion on this one. And that's where it ends with me. No one is wrong or right about this. How do you measure anyone's so called "patriotism". RR feels that military service of any kind is a statement of patriotism to this country. On one level I agree. On another level I don't. (If you are poor, have no future and your only option is to go enlist, that's not patriotism, that's called desperation and survival.)

This is so a non topic. Another distraction issue. Like guns, abortion, gay marriage, etc. Again, we've got a failing economy, two out of control occupations, a burgeoning police state, a federal government that is broken and corrupt and anxiety all around. And then we are bickering about this stupid issue.

McCain's military service stopped when he came home and was discharged. It's done, finished. For Clarke to dredge it up is tabloid crap.

Did you watch the MTP we're talking about?

I didn't hear Randi's remark following what Wes Clark said on Face The Nation
the other day

While I agree COMPLETELY with what Wes Clark actually said
this is going to be fodder for the Right to make hay in the News
and I use the term "News" Very very loosely

Being shot down over Viet nam and being held captive for 5 years
no more makes McSame Presidential material anymore than being Black
prepares Barack Obama

What each man DOES with those histories makes them qualified to be President
and THAT basically is what Wes Clark was saying
but Wes Clark should have been smarter than that... he should know that words are going to be parsed and misrepresented
and he really by making that statement disqualified himself from a Vice-presidential position

In my opinion, it was General Clark's apparent dismissal of Senator McCain entire POW ordeal as being simply "shot down". It would be like summing Up President John F. Kennedy's military experience as being merely "sunk".

Thank you for the tip, Ralphie247. You are correct. It will be General Clark or retired General Clark from now on.

Best Regards,

She said it was a strategically stupid thing for him to say.

For those of you who think no one, or Randi Rhodes saw MTP - yes Randi watched the show in context.

Actually, no. McCain was not discharged when he came home...

McCain's Post-POW Years: Political Ambition and a New, Young, Rich Wife:
Upon his release from North Vietnam and return to the United States in 1973, McCain reunited with his wife, Carol, who had been permanently crippled in a car accident while he was a POW.

Still yearning to become an admiral, McCain enrolled in the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. and underwent physical therapy in order to fly again. The Navy excused his permanent disabilities and reinstated him to flight status, effectively positioning him for promotion.

Timberg described McCain’s advancement: “in the fall of 1974, McCain was transferred to Jacksonville as the executive officer of Replacement Air Group 174, the long-sought flying billet at last a reality. A few months later, he assumed command of the RAG, which trained pilots and crews for carrier deployments. The assignment was controversial, some calling it favoritism, a sop to the famous son of a famous father and grandfather, since he had not first commanded a squadron, the usual career path.”

While Executive Officer and later as Squadron Commander McCain used his authority to arrange frequent flights that allowed him to carouse with subordinates and “engage in extra-marital affairs.”

This was a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice rules against adultery and fraternization with subordinates. But, as with all his other past behaviors, McCain was never penalized; instead he always got away with his transgressions.

Timberg wrote, “Off duty, usually on routine cross-country flights to Yuma and El Centro, John started carousing and running around with women. To make matters worse, some of the women with whom he was linked by rumor were subordinates . . . At the time the rumors were so widespread that, true or not, they became part of McCain’s persona, impossible not to take note of.”

In early 1977, Admiral Jim Holloway, Chief of Naval Operations promoted McCain to captain and transferred him from his command position “to Washington as the number-two man in the Navy’s Senate liaison office. McCain was promptly given total control of the office. It wasn’t long before the “fun loving and irreverent” McCain had turned the liaison office into a “late-afternoon gathering spot where senators and staffers, usually from the Armed Services and Foreign Relations committees, would drop in for a drink and the chance to unwind.”

In 1979, while attending a military reception in Hawaii, McCain met and fell in love with Cindy Lou Hensley, 17 years his junior, who was the daughter of James W. Hensley, a wealthy Anheuser-Busch distributor from Phoenix, Arizona. McCain filed for and obtained an uncontested divorce from his wife in Florida on April 2, 1980 and promptly married Cindy on May 17, 1980.

He resigned from the Navy in 1981 and went to work for his father-in-law in Phoenix; where he used the opportunity to make powerful and wealthy friends in Arizona including banker Charles Keating and Duke Tully, the editor-in-chief of the Arizona Republic. Keating was later convicted of fraud, racketeering, and conspiracy and Tully was disgraced for concocting a phony military record of combat in Korea and Vietnam including medals for heroism.

McCain has used his POW status to get where he is. But it should not make him untouchable. His service record stinks. And the only reason he ever got what he got was because his dad and granddad were high up, and because of his POW status. But if anyone looks at his real record, it isn't too stellar.

Actually, no. McCain was not discharged when he came home...

McCain's Post-POW Years: Political Ambition and a New, Young, Rich Wife:
Upon his release from North Vietnam and return to the United States in 1973, McCain reunited with his wife, Carol, who had been permanently crippled in a car accident while he was a POW.

Still yearning to become an admiral, McCain enrolled in the National War College at Fort McNair in Washington, D.C. and underwent physical therapy in order to fly again. The Navy excused his permanent disabilities and reinstated him to flight status, effectively positioning him for promotion.

Timberg described McCain’s advancement: “in the fall of 1974, McCain was transferred to Jacksonville as the executive officer of Replacement Air Group 174, the long-sought flying billet at last a reality. A few months later, he assumed command of the RAG, which trained pilots and crews for carrier deployments. The assignment was controversial, some calling it favoritism, a sop to the famous son of a famous father and grandfather, since he had not first commanded a squadron, the usual career path.”

While Executive Officer and later as Squadron Commander McCain used his authority to arrange frequent flights that allowed him to carouse with subordinates and “engage in extra-marital affairs.”

This was a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice rules against adultery and fraternization with subordinates. But, as with all his other past behaviors, McCain was never penalized; instead he always got away with his transgressions.

Timberg wrote, “Off duty, usually on routine cross-country flights to Yuma and El Centro, John started carousing and running around with women. To make matters worse, some of the women with whom he was linked by rumor were subordinates . . . At the time the rumors were so widespread that, true or not, they became part of McCain’s persona, impossible not to take note of.”

In early 1977, Admiral Jim Holloway, Chief of Naval Operations promoted McCain to captain and transferred him from his command position “to Washington as the number-two man in the Navy’s Senate liaison office. McCain was promptly given total control of the office. It wasn’t long before the “fun loving and irreverent” McCain had turned the liaison office into a “late-afternoon gathering spot where senators and staffers, usually from the Armed Services and Foreign Relations committees, would drop in for a drink and the chance to unwind.”

In 1979, while attending a military reception in Hawaii, McCain met and fell in love with Cindy Lou Hensley, 17 years his junior, who was the daughter of James W. Hensley, a wealthy Anheuser-Busch distributor from Phoenix, Arizona. McCain filed for and obtained an uncontested divorce from his wife in Florida on April 2, 1980 and promptly married Cindy on May 17, 1980.

He resigned from the Navy in 1981 and went to work for his father-in-law in Phoenix; where he used the opportunity to make powerful and wealthy friends in Arizona including banker Charles Keating and Duke Tully, the editor-in-chief of the Arizona Republic. Keating was later convicted of fraud, racketeering, and conspiracy and Tully was disgraced for concocting a phony military record of combat in Korea and Vietnam including medals for heroism.
http://arclightzero.wordpress.com/2008/02/...ilitary-career/

McCain has used his POW status to get where he is. But it should not make him untouchable. His service record stinks. And the only reason he ever got what he got was because his dad and granddad were high up, and because of his POW status. But if anyone looks at his real record, it isn't too stellar. And it's not hands off. His record deserves scrutiny.

As former military, I won't put McCain's military record down; however, he can't be acting like it was all that.

Getting shot down and spending five, or so, years as a prisoner of war does not make McCain a foreign policy expert. Nor does it make him qualified to be President. The torture he underwent should have made him an expert on torture, but he seems to be on the bad side of the current Bush torture issue.

Hell, he's on the wrong side of every issue.

I thank McCain for his military service to America, but I curse him for his foul and flippant political nature.

Gen. Clark insn't wrong. McCain is doing what Kerry did in 2004, claiming that his time in the military makes him qualified to be president. Gen. Clark was pointing out that it does not. Maybe his phrasing was clunky, but his point is absolutely correct.

Gen. Clark wasn't putting down McCain's service. He's saying that service doesn't qualify McCain to be president.

I agree.

IMO Randi needs to move on. I just don't see why she is spending so much time on this.

Done..next..

I'm a bit nervous entering into this particular conversation, but here goes.

The larger point Clark was trying to make was a valid one. In context, especially in answer to Schieffer's ridiculous question "but Obama isn't qualified to be President, since has never flown in a Navy aircraft and been shot down?" (I paraphrase) it made sense. Unfortunately (and I think Schieffer set him up for it), Clarke's response came out in a perfectly biteable tidbit that would get airplay over and over and over, and Schieffer's ludicrous setup would always be left out. Welcome to the modern mee-djah.

To get all Thom Hartmann for a sec, here are some Presidents who had no history of military service:
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Bill Clinton
Warren G. Harding
Herbert Hoover
George W. Bush

Some Presidents with a history of military service:
Teddy Roosevelt
George Washington
Dwight Eisenhower
Harry S Truman
Andrew Jackson
John F. Kennedy
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Jimmy Carter
George H. W. Bush
Ulysses S. Grant
James Buchanan

And of course there are some wild cards:
Ronald Reagan (not a war hero but played one in the movies)
Lyndon Johnson (saw combat, but only as an observer)
John Adams (never served in uniform)

So while service in the military is extraordinarily honorable, it's not necessarily a predictor of how successful a presidency will be. Some military heroes make great Presidents (TR, Truman, JFK), others make lousy ones (Nixon, Ford, Buchanan, Grant). Some civilians make great Presidents (FDR, Clinton), others are horrid (Dubya, Harding, Hoover).

Yeah I disagree w/ Randi here. Schieffer actually brought up McCain's being shot down if I recall. McCain weaseled out of saying Obama was patriotic and constantly use his military experience on Iraq etc so Randi was ignoring all this with last caller to win the argument.

On the other hand I could see how Clark could have been influenced by Clinton campaign but I don't think it compares to what Swift Boaters did to Kerry.

Randi should take Obama's cue and not react so personally and keep over-reacting using "swift boating" attack on Clark.

I somewhat agree and disagree with what everyone has said.

I respect McCain's military service.

I think anyone that puts on that uniform and goes to war is a hero - sometimes they don't all do heroic things, but for them to put their lives on the line to fight for me... that's heroic.

However... just because someone is in/or has been in the military doesn't mean they'd automatically make a good President.

Anyone who votes for McCain over Obama because McCain served is an idiot.

In the area of military service, McCain beats Obama...

Thankfully most people don't vote for someone purely on the basis of that person's military service.

It's good this happened now rather than in October.