http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/us/polit...xprod=permalink

When Hillary reached out to the right-wing and the fundamentalists in the country, she was criticized for pandering to the right-wing. Daily Kos even called her a Republican!! Olbermann called her everything but a child of God. Hillary was blasted every which way but Sunday every time she would reach out to conservatives and Republicans. I thought it was a smart move when she did it.

Now Obama gives another rousing, thigh-tingling speech to the right-wing and the Obama followers feel he's brilliant. Obama is pandering to the right and trying to move Republicans on his side, which he should be doing.

And McCain is reaching out to women and conservative Democrats and immigrants, which is what he should be doing. It's about winning. Obama is just as ambitious, if not moreso, as anyone in this race.

Let's stop pretending that Obama is above all the usual political tricks. He's not. No Chicago politician is above the tricks.

I thought about responding with "it is a trick to reach out to the opposition to get votes?" or is it just campaigning and every politician in the history of the world does it...

instead, I will just observe that there seems to be a never ending supply of sour grapes for you...i cant help you with that

I never believed Obama was the end all of anything, I believed he had a better chance of winning than Hillary based solely on my observations, therefore I voted for him and support him...I would have supported Hillary equally had she been the nominee...for me, you see, it is ONLY about beating the republicans...

With all the hype behind Obama, I too would think that Obama would be the stronger candidate against McCain.
And yet, the polls are not showing this at all. Obama got a bounce and then it went away. Obama has a lead, but nothing that would indicate permanence.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/election2008.aspx

Better yet, on the Obama News Network, a pundit reported that the McCain camp actually wanted to go against OBAMA not CLINTON. Why? Because Hillary was too strong for them. The McCain knew that Hillary would keep pushing forward, never giving up like she pressed on in the primaries. If the McCain camp is feeling so confident about going against the "juggernaut" like Obama, then they know something we don't know.

The DNC picked the wrong "horse" to back this time, as usual.

got a link for that?

Nonsense, HRC and Obama have more in common that anything, and one of the few defining differences was HRC's negatives. It was a large part of the reason why I voted for Obama, despite him crapping on Michigan in the primaries. I am a pragmatic, and Obama just has a better chance to win.

If there are McCain staffers who think oppositely, they need to hop on their short bus and take some remedial politics, HRC was a polarizing figure. She had a lot of strengths but McCains best chance was to get her in the Dem nominating spot. Obama just doesn't have the dead weight McCain and HRC carry around everyday, and whatever they CAN get on him is so pedestrian it never gains traction.

Hey, isn't that interesting? For the second or third time, Suzi-Stef-Zuki and Miniyaya took roughly the same days off from the board (SSZ took a break on the 25th until yesterday, MYY from the 27th until yesterday.)

Must have been a seminar or conference of some sort, huh? You didn't forget to invite others to a meet-up, didja?

[quote name='MiniYaYa' date='Jul 1 2008, 11:08 AM' post='60597']
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/us/polit...xprod=permalink

When Hillary reached out to the right-wing and the fundamentalists in the country, she was criticized for pandering to the right-wing. Daily Kos even called her a Republican!! Olbermann called her everything but a child of God. Hillary was blasted every which way but Sunday every time she would reach out to conservatives and Republicans. I thought it was a smart move when she did it.
It's about winning. Obama is just as ambitious, if not moreso, as anyone in this race.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It's about winning is the key phrase here. The article tells us that ALL the nominees were courting fundies and other faith based groups.
All of the candidates are going to try to woo all eligible voters.

Besides we all know about promises, remember "read my lips, no new taxes"

Like I've said before, no candidate is perfect, no candidate can please everyone and no candidate can fulfill everyones wishes.

I still say a vote for Gramps is another vote for 4 yrs of same old.

I agree. McCain is a waste of a vote.

You realize that there are religious Democrats, right? He was pandering to the religious, not the right wing.

The blogosphere is kind of insular.

I'm finding myself saying that more and more...and I wish I didn't have to in order to cheer myself up, but I have to grow up and realize that that's what this is about for the time being. As this country is healing, we're going to have to (unfortunately) understand that we are not going to go from zero to 100 in one election year (aggghhhh why?!?) and that politics is still an ugly game.

Now as far as how much is really BarackSpeak and how much is DoubleSpeak....only the future will tell. But! This election process so far has really awoken and empowered a lot of people as far as the political process goes, and I think that together, we will really begin the lonnnnnnng process of cleaning and gutting out our isolated little government.

It's like a huge toilet or a catbox that is essential to our everyday lives we've totally been meaning to clean up for about 20+ years, and we're just finally getting around to it...ew.

No "you're too optimistic" replies, either. I can't take it anymore! Cheer the crap up, people, we gotta do this! If not us, who else, the Repubs??? That's right, I thought so.

So Miniyou, just curious but have you participated or started any threads at all that weren't judging Obama? Try it sometime because this stuff, its getting really old.

We know Obama is going to do stuff like this, and yet we still don't care. Nothing is going to resurrect Clinton from the dead, get over it. Move on. Its done, its gone, its over, its dead. Give it a rest already.

I listened to Obama very carefully. He is offering this three part plan to gain young evangelical votes no doubt in my mind. He wants to open the program up further than traditional Christian welfare bums to include all faiths. He also wants the program monitored by a Presidential Counsel to make the program more effective and effeicient, like I don't know, waste ? It fits right in there with the Reformer package, making sure government welfare works like it ought to work without waste and review leading to continuing improvement.

Funny but at the same time, I think I saw the Three Stooges, Graham, Lieberman and McCain taking the Republican party plank of 2000 Sud de bordo yesterday. Would not catch me 300 yards from that plane being that some people may consider them to be the Three Zionists. Graham may represent the Crusaders, while Lieberman the Jews of course and McCain the Military/Industrial Establishment. McCain should have just painted a big bull's eye on his new plane for the Campaign, if he likes getting shot at while in the air like the old days.

The stark contrast I see here is that old idealisms are being met with pragmatic solutions in this year of our Lord 2008. McCain is trying to hold onto solutions that did not work in the last 8 years while Obama is trying to forge ahead. To me, America's problems are not being met right here and right now like Oil, pronounced Earle in Texass. President says he is for a strong dollar while Oil prices continue to devalue the dollar. Bush gives good rhetoric too. Oh, look, while Bush spoke today, Oil prices rose, gasolene price hit a new national record and the dollar devalued against the Euro again. No fuckin duh idiots, no fuckin duh. Why don't all of you people in Congress take another week of unearned vacation you useless, worthless, spineless wimps.

Being democrat does not mean that you have to be an atheist or agnostic. Second, Hillary looked at 100,000 illegals at city hall alongside our Mayor and told them to vote for her..... she lost my vote right there. Obama last weekend was at the NALEO meeting, and told them all that the illegals broke the law, I was shocked. He told them we are a compassionate country, we will not use gestapo tactics. We will have them sign in, pay a fine, get to the back of the line and learn English and the history of our country, like all immigrants have to. Finally someone that realizes that we have laws.

I worked as a union construction worker for 20 years. I then became an inspector signing my signature to the building members created by businesses here in Los Angeles. To my shock, I would walk into a metal fabrication sweat shop to see anywhere from 20 to 100 men working, that did not speak English. The pay they got was low compared to the English counterpart. It was like this in damn near every sweat shop I was sent to. On Fridays a van would pull up and cash their checks. This is a black market that undermines our way of life. The rich get richer and the workers have really no say as to what their working conditions are, they are just lucky to have a job. The Mayor knows this is going on, he does not care, in fact, he put up day labor centers in every Home Depot with our tax dollars.

We have some very big problems that have been caused by our leaders. The illegal problem is one that has been turned into a racial hate thing, when it is a breach of law. Obama looks at the present religious infrastructures and knows they can help and make a difference. We do not want to scape goat the illegals, and we need a way to help them become Americans. The religious infrastructures would be a great conveyance if used properly. These people need to learn English, math, American history, economics, hell most Americans don't understand economics being they wish to vote repug once again.

The repugs have been slowly removing our infrastructure for more profit. This has slowly removed the foundation of our country, and it is now showing. We need our infrastructure no matter where it may be at this point. Obama sees the churches as a positive social and economical tool to fix what is wrong, and there is a lot to fix. So let us not throw out the baby with the bath water, I would like to see where this one goes. It takes a leader to take advantage of what you have before you.

Just let me add that back in 2000, when we had a surplus budget, little foreign debt and strong GDP growth with capital taxation slightly higher we could give up some jobs. Now GM and Ford are struggling, the borders are still pourous and our debts are outrageous so it's not a time to being encouraging job loss in America, that is insane. It's the difference between Idealists and Realists, what is best for our country at this juncture. I can tell you that the manufacturing base is falling right now which is reflected by miles logged by truckers. Argument is that jobs in South America will prevent migrations to the United States. But we don't have to worry about that because there are job losses during a recession. People are going to come here now ? Starbucks is cutting back. Through Economics 101, I can say Starbucks coffee is a luxury item and when disposable income decreases people cut out spending on luxury items, no fuckin duh.

Oh look...I's Yaya again.

I believe a link has been requested.

Better yet, on the Obama News Network, a pundit reported that the McCain camp actually wanted to go against OBAMA not CLINTON. Why? Because Hillary was too strong for them. The McCain knew that Hillary would keep pushing forward, never giving up like she pressed on in the primaries. If the McCain camp is feeling so confident about going against the "juggernaut" like Obama, then they know something we don't know.


since everything everybody has ever heard about this says just the opposite, that the right wanted to go against hillary, i wonder where this info is from?

I was hoping the article would have posted what he said, not just what everyone thought about it. Talking to the religious should not be off of the table. I have seen the religious right use brainwashing techniques to influence votes for the repugs. It is a smart thing for Obama to talk to them. This is the only way you can get above the brainwashing.

Well, let me just say that traditionally, Catholic Charities are not dependent on State Based Welfare. In fact, when the Pope was in town, he did not attend an official State Dinner at the Whitehouse. Maybe Obama could consult HRC on certain voters and voting trends. I think Catholics learned a few things through the Fall of the Roman Empire, again, no fuckin duh !!!

There is a sophisticated attempt to weaken McCain's voter base. This is just one of several if not many attempts to make it easier for the religious right to either not vote or vote for Obama.

Here is a Salon story that broadens this approach. Link

It removes the standard 30 year old argument that the Democrats want to destroy all churches.

I read the Salon story and I understand the strategy.
But in the end, I don't see the conservative, religious right voting for Obama in large numbers.

I don't even see white men voting for Obama in the same number as the primaries. I feel many (and interviews after the primaries substantiate it) that many votes were really voting AGAINST Hillary Clinton and planned to vote for McCain in the fall. And that might change, of course. But I still think a substantial number of men who votes for Obama in the primary will vote for McCain in the fall.

Just IMO.

That's not quite the point. I see them not voting for McCain in droves, or being nearly so energized. I see the liberal, religious LEFT, voting for Obama in DROVES.

Sorry, saw the speech and I saw no "pandering". I saw Barack trying to find common ground with evangelicals, but I saw no pandering.

The faith-based initiatives are now established law now folks. And they are a popular concept with many, many Americans. Not going to be easy to get rid of them, and why should we, as long as they have to follow the same rules as "secular" service organizations?

That's essentially what Barack laid out yesterday, and I think it was well received. Not necessarily well-received by the more "alarmist" elements of his supporters, but well received by people Barack needs to vote for his so that we can bury the Republicans in November. And that's what counts.

Face it folks, Barack is trying to be the president of every single American, and I applaud him for it. I don't want "liberal-fascism" any more than I have wanted conservative fascism, and for pretty much the same reason. I like a lot of you folks out and we mostly agree, but when we disagree, I'd hate the thought of you being able to cram down your opinions on me.

I'm sure you might not like all of my opinions either... Fortunately, none of gets to have our way all of the time, and we must learn to coexist.