So you keep it around until after Obama has replaced the federal judges... THEN pursue on the grounds of it's unconstitutionality.

I don't know about that.

Progressive religious already have their network of works, that do not depend on F-BI. I give to one such church because they are the ONLY people in this particular community doing what they are. They are not involved with the faith based program - I was sure to suss that out before I started supporting them.



Maybe the white ones, but Black churches at least, as we well know have been the center of such activities since the 18th century.

Can't verify this for sure, but I also doubt the UCC, ELCA, UUs, etc are involved with the faith-based program. It would be an interesting thing to research.

When I hear the arguments about separation of church and state, I have to agree to a large part in what I read. Things DO have to be separate, but at what cost? There are many boots on the ground, from the Salvation Army to Black Churches to Muslim community centers that do good work. If they can get the job done, and no one else is doing it, and it has value to the American people to get it done, I almost feel there is a disconnect between pragmatism and idealism.

Funny thing about Hamas, do you know why they are in power? Ask most people from the region and they say the same thing. When something gets blown up, when medical supplies are needed, when the chips are down, Hamas is the first ones there to lend a hand and help in any way they can. They get things done and when you are in need, that's all that matters.

We do have boots on the ground that are sectarian in nature, but not enough. And if the most efficient way to care for those who are the most needy but have been neglected is to fund organizations who are willing to care for those we have cast away, I have a hard time understanding why when there is no alternative for the homeless, the mentally ill, or the terminally ill.

Yet my instincts always call for the separation, I know the damage it can bring. But I wish there was a compromise so that the hearts and minds of those in greatest need can feel, just like those chaps feel about Hamas, that when the chips are down we can get things done. New Orleans is a great example of what we can do as a government, which is jack and shit.

The Black churches have been doing so since the mid-1800s, without jack sht from the government. Those networks are still very strongly in place. If people were paying attention during Katrina, they could see it in action.

Funny you should bring that up. Do you really feel they do this out of pure altruism? Perhaps that explains their political victory in 2006. That, and frustration with Fatah corruption, and a desire to "send a message" to Israel and the U.S. ...

I would not list Hamas as an example of a religious organization that gives out aid without strings attached, and with no ulterior politico-religious agenda.

They may be popular for the aid and relief they provide - but I think they know deep down that helps build their political base - and in that sense, that doesn't make them all that different from Bush & his OoF-BI.

I am from the Detroit area and know a lot of folks from Lebanon, we have a huge population of Leblanasians (I kid them with this ) who are pretty consistent that in actuality, they really DO have their shit together in this regard. And it isn't with strings, that's what inspires so many to support them.

And to Carmen, I know the churches have been there and will be there, I just happen to think they are better at knowing what the needs of the community are and where it is needed and how to reach those IN need. Why shouldn't they have help? They do it more efficiently, compassionately and effectively than any US agency could on their best day.

McCain does recognize his "weakness" with religious conservatives. He met with Billy Graham and his son the other day. So McCain is doing the same thing.

In the long run, I don't see conservative religious right moving to Obama in November.

If I may: because what has public funding is open to public law and control. Sep of church and state protects each from the other.

Do you want some extremist outlawing selective teachings at your church? If your church is on the public dole, then your church is open to public debate.

Indeed. I DO however see a tremendous lack of enthusiasm from them to mobilize against Obama as they did against Kerry.

I DO see the religious LEFT being empowered and motivated to show up in support of Obama.

They should have help from private citizens like me, who choose to support them. Not tax money from people who don't even believe in their doctrines.

Tax the Churches. Tax the Businesses owned by the Churches.

I get where you're coming from but this seems to me like it is working to become president. There has to be speculation among the members of the mega churches that have benefitted from the FBI's(hee-hee) that electing Obama will damage their church when he ends their handout. So coming out and saying he will end that office, or even letting the speculation linger keeps those people from coming to his side. But by saying he's going to keep it open, and as Randi is pointing out (on the live stream) by enhancing the accountability for where the money goes, he seperates the flock from the shepherds that have been fleecing them. Now the people can say he still supports their soup kitchens and various other programs, while Obama structures the offices so that the six and seven figure payouts for support to Haggards and the like can no longer happen. These mouthpieces can now not go to their flocks and stir them up with cries of how horrible life under Obama will be because in the end the money will still be there so long as they are above board and honest. Who among the flock will think their church incapable of doing that? It'll be like "what are you talking about, brother? We have nothing to fear, just tell them what its for and we'll still get what we need."

Meanwhile support for organizations that aren't directly religious has been in place, and is easier to get than faith based funding is which is why Obama is so focused on the aspect of his program where the teaching of smaller organizations to get the funding is a big component. And their's the delightful aspect of that part of the plan which tickles me so. What is the best revenge on a guy you find hoarding food? You stick your head out the door and shout to everyone who can hear "Hey, everybody! Look at all the food I just found in here! Come and get it!"

Unless you can provide results of an accredited study, I would have to characterize that as opinion.

Good take on it

I hear you...we have to be careful not to confuse "change" with ideology IMO and get caught in media scorecard.

You hit the nail on the head here I'd say and Obama's saying we need reinforcements esp after the past 7 yrs and just wait for the aftermath. Already tent cities in suburban LA.

The faith based organizations can be the reinforcements if they're not just fronts for politicians as they are now. Besides. hiring at least, possibly funding, won't be done for religious activities.

"The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America", By Charlotte Iserbyt - Dept of Education Ronald Reagan
The creation of the new soviet man.
Where the people become slaves (5 - 80 yrs old, workforce) and the wealthy few own everything.
Faith-based Initiatives are being used by NWO to impliment the Soviet System

Obama is working for the GLOBALIST
I'd like to add..so is Hillary and McCain.

What ever, why is it when a man tries to help everyone, and looks at what infrastructure we have left in place, they make more out of it than is there. If he really is a Christian, and the people that got voted in waving the bible are just flat heathens, how about lets look at what the man does along with what he says. He is not in the White House yet, there is plenty of time to blow our wad on McSame and let WW3 bring in the Millennium. I just cant believe how this is getting soooo blown out of proportion. He is addressing something that is already in place, that we are already paying for. Wouldn't it be nice if we got something out of it like, helping the needy... what a concept.

Oh please...you're in denial, here. This is a rehashed Soviet System. The 'Communitarian Network' is the USA program. You know it by 'faith-based' but it comes in several guises.

This network is infiltrating and taking over the country..bit by bit.
Watch this..and please continue further research.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPW5rC-chDU

It's also a big problem in the UK, "Common Purpose"
Watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=36...5mXDw&hl=en

Dude, red-baiting went out of style with acid wash jeans and fanny packs.

The Soviet System is dead. Nobody buys this old John Birch Society post-tribulation CT crapola.

I'm not a John Bircher, CARMEN. The TRUTH IS, this is an old social model used in CHINA and SOVIET RUSSIA.

I'll wager you did no research on "Communtarian Network" here, in the USA or the UK's "Common Purpose".

You want your comfortable world...so keep it. You'll be shaken awake soon enough and you'll ask, "When did they change these laws?"

Pay attention to your municipal government..I'm giving you a 'tip' on local activism. This is how the NWO is going to infiltrate your community. In particular, watch out for your city's Charter Renewal. Charters should never be renewed. City Charter's should be only amended.

Never said you were. Relax.



It is?

Oh, ok.

I had heard the UFOs running the Illuminati were going to put RFID chips up our butts and make all 6 million of us bow down to the Antichrist in unison to the tune of a musical collaboration by Anton LaVey and the Vatican. Thanks for the tip.

If there's a communist network, why wasn't I invited?

WTF!?

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/crr...ective_hope.pdf

Decent metanalysis of FBO's, at the least they seem to be comparable, but more studies are needed. In some aspects they appear to have good impact, in others, not so much. The same, I assume, can be said for most charitable endeavours.

Decent synopsis on page 21 (huge number of other citations at the end as well)



Hope that helps.

You're very right about that. You do know about the Manhattan "IBell Curve" nstitute, right?

http://mediatransparency.com/allinonesearc...attan+institute

Mmmmmm they are terrible, what a horrible source I found.

Thanks for the heads up Carmen, I need to pay attention a little better.

There are some good resources here:

http://www.urban.org/nonprofits/faithbased.cfm

Here's some more stuff -- some of it from the bad old days...

http://search.urban.org/texis/search/main....mp;dropXSL=html

We sort of need to hit the ground running as George W is the lamest of the lame ducks.

Gas prices, Mortgage Crisis, Economy, you name it, he ain't going to try and fix it.

So O'Bama KNOWS he's going to inherit a ship that's already on fire. Now is not the time to fight the fire with one hand tied behind your back (for style points).

So one of you political wonks please help me with this. Does separation of church and state really mean that the government CANNOT work WITH churches, as long as proper groundrules are established?????

Sorry for the emoticon, I was trying to convey my true meaning.

do this, at a minimum

However, Lynn said he was pleased to hear Obama express support for church-state separation and say that he would bar government-funded proselytism and religious discrimination in hiring when tax dollars are involved *

http://www.au.org/site/News2?abbr=pr&p...auhdrmw92.app5b

cant have it at all in my interpretation of the constitution, but if he is going to do it to appeal to the religious, well, lets call them folks, so i wont insult anyone, then he must build in safeguards against proselytizing