If it's off limits for Westley Clark to say what he said about McCain's service; then I guess it's off limits for us liberals to say anything about Bush's service in the Air National Guard.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's "off limits".. and technically, Clark could be right. I just question.. why go there? Obama has no military service, so there's nothing to compare. There is not issue here! Clark's expertise is "military".. there are probably lots of "military" issues that should be addressed.. Like, why would anyone support a guy that is willing to consider staying in Iraq for 100 years? Let's hand over Iraq over to the Iraqi people.. that's supposed to be the whole idea.. just do it!

OOGAH! OOGAH! I'm about to type the unspeakable.

I'll say our beloved 24-hour expedient media has made it impossible for any but a Repub to mention McCain's service record. They can bring it up, but we can't. Third rail and all that. But we need to go there, McCain could be entirely nuts after 5 years of confinement and torture, then again, maybe not; he certainly doesn't object to torture so how do we know any of the POW stint was true/accurate? Was it a POW camp, or a VietCong country club? (There, I've gone and done it.)

And there's the issue of supporting our injured veterans situation/platform...or lack there of. McCain is a mass of contradictions (lies?) and we need to plainly expose them. We need to make him explain himself...like a gopher caught in the headlights.

Clark's comment was fair, IMO. Does being a 20 year veteran of the armed services qualify one to be Commander in Chief? 20 year Sergeant Major? 20 year colonel who ran a supply depot? How about a fighter pilot, or someone who commanded a squadron? A captain of infantry? The answer is no, to all of them. The last time we had general staff experience as President was Eisenhower, and he hated war. War, perhaps even being in the service, teaches the horror of war, which is useful. Current CiC somehow missed that thought, with the result in front of us.

The Commander in Chief is a sub-function of President, mostly fulfilled by managing general staff and depending on their expertise. I watched Obama manage Petraeus last time Petraeus testified. I've never seen McCain do that. I also know that Obama fully understands diplomacy, in the broad sense; I don't believe McCain does. So the decision of whether / when to depend on force and how it is balanced with diplomacy is something not gotten by being in the armed forces. It's a different skill.

I agree with everything you have said. Unfortunately, we live in a world of tabloid media were being right is not enough. After listening to Obama's speech on patriotism I weep. It was the best articulation of how a liberal or a progressive activist is one of the most patriotic that I have ever heard. It laid the foundation for taking away the rhetorical franchise of patriotism away from the false super patriots on the right. Unfortunately the Republican noise machine counteracted what I believe would have been a very impactful speech that would have changed the nature of the conversation with respect to patriotism. Hopefully, enough people will watch the speech in the future.

From the stories that I've heard over the years.. and before McCain even thought about politics, and others that were with him.. I don't seriously think that it was a "VietCong country club". They didn't call it the "Hanoi Hilton" because it was posh. Kneeling on a bamboo pole for hours isn't exactly like spending a day at the spa. He didn't stay the entire POW time at Hoa Lo Prison, but spent some time at another POW camp as well.. it would make for some interesting reading, but I'm not convinced that it's even relevant to the presidential campaign. Story has it that he spent approximately two years in solitary confinement .. If that was me.. I would have gone nuts. (I think that anyone that goes into politics .. thank you for your service .. is, quite frankly, NUTS. .. so we don't need to spin his POW time at all.. John McCain is just plain nuts. .. but what does all of this say about our candidate? Nuts!)

I do find it curious... when you listen to a "conservative".. they'll talk about the "six years" the McCain spent as a POW.. Listen to a "liberal".. and they'll say "five years". When you "do the math" on the dates (captured on 10/26/1967 and released on 03/26/1973), it's more like "5.4 years"... Why the freakin' spin?

I agree.. the man is full of contradictions.. the "straight talk express" does some wandering! Why does he pander to the conservatives in his party, who clearly hate him? Why do liberals label him as a "flip-flopper", for times that he has clearly supported liberal causes? .. yeah, because he claims not to support those ideas anymore. Maybe the best strategy for the Democrats is simply to remind the conservatives of the reasons why they hate John McCain. ... and McCain just doesn't get any votes in November. (James Dobson already promised not to vote! Rush Limbaugh said that he would "move to Canada" if McCain got the nomination! We're winning already!)

Truth is who else could get a presidential canidate to have a temper tanturm on live television? Question my patriotism? hell ya!
who the hell voted against the new GI bill? I think the goal was political. we alos were able to see "mccant" handle a personal attack and judge him on how he will behave when he diagrees with the other world leaders? eh comrade? barks loud for a president, but has false teeth!

It is frustrating to keep this illusion going that Clarke said anything not true. Clarke went out of his way to say McCains service made him a hero . He addeda a personal hero. He then added a logical truth, his experience was not transferable to the hardest executive job on earth.He even tried to qualify it by saying some of the qualities of his service might be, but ultimately, it the skills of surviving as prisoner, even the leader MCCain was while doing it, are not transferable into the other job. Nothing more than that, noting more offensive than that!

any discussion of Clark's (those particular, and on that day) comments about McCain MUST include the fact that his words were a virtual verbatim response to the question he was asked, the phraseology primarily that of the interviewer.

Gen Wes Clark is a true American, if only the American people were intelligent enough to realize that he is the real deal and not just a bullshit politician.
MSG O'Connor

I must admit that I was impressed with Clark in the 04 primaries. I was amused and irritated that the smear the repubs came up with was he wore cologne to SHAPE, implying that even though he was a 4 star general he wasn't a REAL man.

I think this is JUST where the news media needs to be confronted honestly. I don't know what their beef has always been with Clark - I think it's because he's hard to put in a box. Whatever.

If it's our job on the bottom to start the ball rolling, then it's the job of those on top to protect us. I want to see Obama defend Clark. I would love to see Clark as a VP pick.

I think Clark would be an ideal VP candidate. He doesn't get ruffled with right wing propaganda. He can easily debunk them and make them look foolish. He's a straight shooter.

A very good reason for going there is the fact that far too many uninformed, semi-conscious American voters have been strategically imbued with the mistaken impression that the opportunistic little shit, McCain, is a bona fide war "hero." He is not a hero in the accepted sense of the word and he deserves to have the covers rudely pulled off him. Wesley Clark has the authority to do it and it's about time someone did.

There is absolutely nothing heroic about being shot down and captured. The correct word is unfortunate, not heroic. Having volunteered to be a Navy flyer McCain eventually endured several years of extreme discomfort -- for which he has been well compensated by decades of political success. Were it not for the mythical "war hero" status he would have ended up as an insurance salesman or some kind of federal cop.