I called Randi's show today (July 1st) and told her that I was a grunt in Vietnam in 1967, lost both legs to an enemy mortar round, and that most people treat me as a hero. She then told me to "own it" and disconnected me. So, I want to finish the story, here, now.

After I was wounded, four volunteers from another platoon crossed a river under enemy fire, wrapped me in a poncho and carried me back across the river, still under fire. THEY WERE HEROES! Not me. They chose to risk their lives to give me a chance to survive. That was extraordinary.

Boots on the ground do not constitute heroism. If every vet who sets foot in a combat zone is a "hero," then we need a new word for what hero used to mean: someone who takes an extraordinary risk to accomplish a mission or to save the lives of others.

So, Randi, please rethink your irrational hero worship of soldiers. Being a soldier in country doesn't make one a hero. Performing in an extraordinary fashion at the risk of your life makes you a hero. Those who aren't heroes are "soldiers," and they should be respected as soldiers not worshipped as heroes.

And one more thing, Randi. FISA was an infringement on our civil liberties. The new FISA bill will also be an infringement on our civil liberties. Barack is wrong to support it. You can argue till you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that the FISA bill does more damage to our Constitution than all the terrorist attacks ever could, because terrorists can't rewrite the Constitution, only our representatives who are sworn to uphold and protect it can destroy it, and that's exactly what they're doing, and you're all for it. You should be ashamed of yourself. Get over the hero worship and find that independent mind which you seem to have lost somewhere in the middle, the limbo into which the Democatic Party has drifted through cowardice and calculation.

I think that most politicians (In particular, those that are against it) are at a rock and a hard place with FISA. blah, blah, blah, war on terror!

I tend to be optimistic. The Constitution will survive. At some point in time, FISA will just expire, but let's just let it go away quietly.

The "Oath of Enlistment" doesn't have an expiration date... "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic...". It's not "heroic", it's just what we do. We have a right and an obligation to continue. Thank you for your service and your sacrifice. You may not feel like a hero, but you are a hero to me. (My service in the USAF Reserves wasn't much of a sacrifice. 1976 to 1989 was an unprecedented period of American Peace that I didn't count on, it was just my dates to serve.)

Vet4ever---I somehow missed your call, but I also feel similar, although I hold the opinion that the heroes don't come home alive, IMHO.

Hang Tough, Tap

Hand salute to you, Vet. I beg to differ. I believe any member of what Bill Mauldin called, "The Grand And Glorious Fraternity Of Them That Got Shot At" is a hero, including you. Like me, you swore the Oath and Honored it. That puts you head and shoulders above the criminal yellow-bellies who are ruining this country, even with no legs.

STG2 USN 1972-78

PS Welcome to the board. Sorry that your Randiexperience was so underwhelming. do you still keep in touch with the four guys?

Vet4Ever, thanks for the call. I heard you, and got your point. There's a difference in levels of service, and I think many people just lump together military service in one bundle.

You did foreign war service, and got hurt during it. I think everyone is aware that the Vietnam Vets were treated poorly on return, and want to make sure that everyone who served gets a thank-you for the service.

However, your point is really well made, and thanks for calling in to Randi.

Thanks to all four of you for your supportive comments. It's amazing how few welcome-homes we get these days.

I'm just at a complete loss. All my political heroes aren't just drifting right, they're sprinting! Barack now supports FISA (which would have expired soon if we didn't renew it), advocates adding tens of thousands of soldiers to the military, wants to expand the faith-based giveaway of billions of tax dollars to churches (a program called "corrupt" by the very men who helped administer it for Bush and resigned because it was such a fraud), and has quit talking altogether about energy independence, education, etc. Clinton swerved right years ago when she voted for the war, repeatedly and without apology. And now my former favorite talk-show host has bought into the spin on FISA, as though there were any justification for infringing on our civil liberties. It has been clear and obvious for years that the FISA court is a farce, which means that the gov't can spy on us without any real oversight, without checks or balances.

I feel like a man without a party. There are no Democrats left, just Republicans and neo-con Republicans. The Dems have abandoned their base and their platform. Even to Dems, now, "liberal" is a dirty word.

I know what your talking about, that's why I started posting to these forums to see if there were any true Liberal Democrats left. They're there we just need to remind them of what it means to be just that, a Liberal Democrat.

I served 4 years USAF 68-72. 6 months on Guam and a year at Utapao Thailand 69-70 the rest stateside no hero here either. Glad you made it back, I salute you.

McCain's been taking crap for getting shot down and caught. People say that he's not a hero, rather a poor excuse for a military man since he was caught in the first place. In this light, how does getting killed make one a hero?

I can't argue with anything you've said. You've said much the same as I've said over the years, but in a more articulate manner than I could.

My understanding is that FISA has already expired; there is no oversight at all. We do not even have the rubber stamp FISA court. The choice is not 1) no FISA court with civil court review, vs. 2) New FISA bill with retro-active civil immunity. The choice is the new bill vs. no review with continued spying.

Dear Sir, I respect your service, and totally wish that this never had to happen to you. Yes it is true that the men were heros that saved you, but you gave more to your country than we have had to. So excuse us if we look at you as one. You don't have to feel that way, but we do.

Nice...I've been trying to come up a reply like this...

V4E, it boggles my mind sometimes to think of what people have gone thru due to war, hence I look at those of you who did as gutsy as friggin' hell...

I'm also sorry about your phone-in experience...hopefully being here will make up for it

xoxox

I think the point is that there is an auto-pilot reflex action to men & women in uniform that instantly places them in the category of "heroes" and in the eyes of many Americans a military person is an angel with a gun. It's this type of Pavlovian response that makes it so hard for people to think of people wearing military uniforms as individuals, instead they get an automatic 10 point bonus just for wearing one.

We don't show anywhere near the same level of respect and honor for our civilians engaged in life saving or life changing endeavors, only if you're a warrior.

My dad served during WWII, my brother was a Marine during the Vietnam war, my oldest son served in the 82nd. Airborne, and my nephew is an Air Force Master Sergeant ... I AM NOT anti-troop.

In the current election cycle John McCain's military service background is seen by many people as something that instantly gives him an advantage on issues like national security ... that's like interviewing for a job selling specialized financial instruments but having a background of working in a bank as a teller manager. Just because he commanded a fighter squadron doesn't catapult him into being a consummate national security expert, nor does it make him more astute on these issues than senator Obama

As a vet, USAF 78-82, I agree that not everyone that served should be considered a hero.
I'm thinking that some of this hero worship is a direct result of the constant droning by the Bushbots that if you don't agree with the Bushyt Holy Crusade Against Islam, then you don't support the troops.
People are starting to over compensate. Veterans and current troops deserve our respect for protecting our rights, not worship.

I take my stance from Richard D. Winters, of Band of Brothers fame, he said "I'm not a hero, but I served in a company of heroes" And he was referring to those that died, if you read his book he makes this crystal clear. Some are heroic, and they come home alive, some are heroes, because they died, it's that simple, but why are we arguing about this? How about just shedding tears and thanking them all?

Thanks, Vet, for sharing your experiences, and opinions with us. I couldnt listen to Randi any more after her whole General Clark embalism over the past few days, so I missed your ATTEMPT to add more light and LESS heat to the discussion.

IMO, America has really de-valued the term hero over the past couple decades. My father was in combat in 3 wars (WW2, Korea, and Vietnam), and won several awards and commendations during that time, and although he is MY hero, his service to our country was in the line of duty and in keeping with the oath he took as a soldier. He did nothing heroic, in terms of the military definition of the word.

I think that we as a country have so lost touch with being a country of do-ers, and have become so damned apathetic that we feel the need to lift up anyone who actually stands up and does something. Teachers, firefighters, law enforcement, ER doctors, etc., etc.. These are all important and honorable professions, but what they do is DO THEIR JOBS! There are times when fate may call them to do something above and beyond the call of duty, or what is reasonably expected of them, and when/if that happens then we can look at the circumstances and reasonably discuss their heroism.

If more Americans would just stand up and do the best they can do at whatever they are here to do then this place would be a much better country, imo.

Thank you for YOUR service. Please know that I feel that we all stand on your shoulders.

Peace

I agree with what ALL OF YOU have said. That's amazing! I've never had such an "agreeable" experience on any blog.

I started blogging on an atheist blog, I think it was Janine Garafolo's (SP?), and the atheists attacked me like I was the devil incarnate because I asserted that I'm an AGNOSTIC, not an atheist. They accused me of being "gutless" because I wouldn't admit that I was actually atheist. Hell, if I can't "know" that there IS a God, how can I "know" that there ISN'T one? I quit that blog rather quickly because I got tired of defending my metaphysical ignorance.

Anyway, about the hero worship. I think it came in two steps, both mentioned in this thread by you guys/gals.

1) The miserable treatment of vets coming home from Vietnam. That, by the way, is mostly myth. Very few vets were spat on or at by anyone. I came home in late '67, having been wounded in August. First bar I went to, patrons sent a dozen drinks to my table. I couldn't drink them, of course, because I was only twenty. But, after the Tet offensive in January '68, no more drinks. Public opinion turned against the war and vets were less welcomed, though most people were smart enough to separate the policy from the personnel.

The real abuse of vets was not spitting on them, it was refusing to hear their stories. We all (vets) learned to keep quiet about our experiences. No one wanted to hear the truth, because the truth was ugly. People still don't realize that up to 3 million Asians died because of our involvement in that war, which was basically the Vietnamese people trying to reunite their country after it was divided into North and South by western powers at the end of WWII.

2) Bushocrats conflating patriotism and support for the war. If you didn't support the war, you were a traitor, and if you didn't support the war, you didn't support the troops. Total hogwash.

I remember that lying piece of garbage by the name of Tucker Carlson saying week after week, early in the Iraq war, that to criticize the war was "giving aid and comfort to the enemy," and was, therefore, an act of treason. He got all excited when he finally found a guest to come on the show, on MSNBC, I think, and agree that to criticize the was treason. NOW, he says that he opposed the war from the beginning. Well, we're still at war, so, following Tucker's own logic, isn't he a traitor?

That's how ridiculous it's gotten. Speaking your mind is treason, unless you're waving the American flag and screaming "KIll 'em all!" It's not treason to get on the radio and say that we should drop nukes on North Korea, Iran, and Iraq, but it's treason to voice your opinion that the war is illegal, immoral, and a war crime.

So, I guess we didn't learn a thing in Vietnam. And I'm really depressed that it's my generation that got us into all this trouble in the Middle East, now. If we had stayed with Carter's CAFE standards, we'd be selling oil to the world and we wouldn't be involved in the Middle East, but Reagan killed Carter's efforts as a favor to Detroit and Houston. Clinton could have done something about energy independence, but he was too busy being popular to bother himself with real problems. It pisses me off to think how much good he could have done if he hadn't been such a dick.

By the way, I have received mostly excellent care from the Veterans Administration. It's ALWAYS much better when a Democrat is President, but even under Republican presidents it's usually been adequate. FOR ME. But then, I have had very few health problems in the last 40 years. At least, under the Democrats, I don't have a problem getting a new wheelchair. When Reagan was President, it was hard to get a band aid, much less a wheelchair! Under Clinton, I got the best health care of my life. Under Bush-the-Moron, VA healthcare is rapidly deteriorating.

Welcome to Vet4ever and all vets!

I too am upset about Obama's choices, but I am not surprised. I do recognize, as does Randi, that right now all that matters is winning.


I believe that she and hopefully he will change their tune after winning...that appealing to the center is crucial to winning, regardless of how disgusting it is to do it.

That is what I am hoping...

Here, here

At the age of 13-1/2, my dad thinking I was going to be a bad kid, made me sign my life away at a naval station. Every summer was spent at a military base, my 17th birthday, July 29th, was spent waking up in the morning with my company, getting our chit, a quick breakfast with a seaman recruit yelling get the hell out of my chow hall, and drown proofing for the day. I spent two weeks at bootcamp, then a week a Coronado bay with the seals. I WANTED TO DIE! The only reason I got through the "O" course is because, I CHEATED! Hey, I admit it, but I had to outsmart the gunny to do it.

I spent weeks in NBC school, spent months at a time on 5 different ships in my 4-1/2 years in the navy. It was an honor to scrape the decks of the Norton Sound, she was the first AGIS Missile testing ship in the fleet. I once saw on history channel the V-2 launched from her forecastle. I spent time on AVR's, YTB's, I even got to do a weekend on an oiler that pulled up next to the Constellation. With a crow on my sleeve the navy promised me my crow back in 6 months after re upping.

There is no way I would ever want to spend my life in the military. After my experience, I totally respect what they do for us, and I am proud to have worn the uniform, even if it was as a cadet in peace time. I learned what a gas chamber is all about, that really sucked, not just going in and pulling your mask off, but going back to your bq where your clothes are, and you get hit by that crap again.

Some of us died during the training, I never went out at night because of that, out on the deck of a ship, all it takes is one wave. I came close once... I was sea sick, it was general quarters, I did not give a shit at this point, I needed air. I undogged a hatch and looked out, just to see nothing but a wall of water. I never dogged a hatch so fast in my life, water pouring in, I ran out of there like hell was behind me. The hatch got dogged off, but I did not want restricted duty for the rest of the trip.

I will never know what it is like to be a ground pounder with a rifle, I am the first in my line not to kill another man, I am just trying to keep it that way.

My dad served in Korea, he is 101st airborn. He was a rock soldier, probably one of the damn meanest things that ever lived. 3 silver stars, and just wonders now why he and his friends fought for this country, when it can be handed over to China with our credit card.

So I do thank one and all that have fought for this country, perhaps we might be able to salvage what is left. I certainly hope so.

RandiLover,

That is an amazing story! I have never heard anything like it! It sounds like you had a tougher time in the Navy than I had in Vietnam. By the way, like your father, I was in the 101st Airborne. I was in the 2nd 502, A Company, 3rd Platoon.

I applaud your decision to stand at the front of the line to not kill another person. If we could all get into that space, imagine the resources we'd have to fight other problems facing the world.

I agree with you. Obama is in full Clinton mode (Bill that is) moving talking points to the middle. That was a key to Clinton winning 8 years in office and although I disagreed with a lot of it at the time I think we were all much better off with him reading the political writing on the wall and doing what was needed to get in the Whitehouse and work for change than we would have been by allowing the RW fascists to paint him as a "bleeding heart liberal". I think that is one of the main reasons that the RW hated him so much. He would not allow them to define who he was so they labeled him a waffler and "slick Willy".

So, I think we all need to realize this and not be too turned off by the fact that Obama has to play some politics to get in office. Did anyone REALLY think we were going to see Barack Obama, 47 year old black man, become the next President without some really adroit (sp?) polital manuevering?

Now for the kicker....

Obama is going to select republican Chuck Hagel as his VP so be perpared to be REALLY pissed off in a couple months. There will be NO question that he is sincere about uniting the country at that point. Hagel is a decorated and wounded Vietnam combat vet, and he has already reputiated McCain's views and tactics during this campaign. Not the person I would select, but just think of it for a minute before you fire off your replies that I am off my rocker.

Peace

Hi Vet,

After rereading this thread and remembering you were wheel-chair bound, I remembered this Iconoclasts program with Dean Kamen. Kamen is developing new robotic prosthetic limbs and also this nifty wheelchair for the DOD. Perhaps you should look into whether there's a chance of you obtaining one of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Vmmo47ucU

Randilover,

I spent six years as a tincan sailor and used to like to lash myself to the stanchions of the signal bridge and ride God's Own Roller Coaster or climb up inside the mast on the Magoo and sit behind the SPS-40 radar about 100 feet up in rough weather(North Atlantic in Winter). I would have been the guy next to you smoking cheap cigars and eating sardines packed in mustard. Never got seasick, once. Also, is it just me or did the Nav wait until rough weather to cook the greasiest food imaginable? As for me, I was in the last year of the draft when they were taking people and had a lottery # of 5. So I decided to follow my dad and grandpa to sea and spent the next six years a-Whaling. Now I may not be a New Bedford man, but I HAVE hunted the great steel whales.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZD9zCLRB1g


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MVQYnEkQ8I

I AGREE! The effects of tax payer funded "faith based initiatives," the new FISA bill, etc., could just destroy our democracy, and if Obama can't recognize that, ingrossed in some soulless pandering, then he's the wrong guy. And I'm disappointed with him for not standing up for Gen. Clarke, in the face of all this BS. Vets should be appreciated for their contribution, service, and sacrifice. Those things doesn't necessarily make them heros, and it certainly doesn't make them infallible or right, but it does make the honorable. Thank you for your service and sacrifice. That's all Clarke was saying, and he's earned the right to say it, just as you have.

I very much appreciate your introductory message in this forum. A well-tempered piece.

I was in the Marine Corps in the 1950s (peacetime). Separated in 1960. By the time 'Nam jumped off I had matured and learned a lot. I became an active protester and I'd like to say the cruddy, long-haired, tie-dyed hippie-types who were most frequently seen on the news raising hell and calling the troops "baby-killers," etc., were in fact a minor segment of the overall protest, most of which consisted of letter-writing campaigns, peaceful demonstrations at congressional offices, recruiting stations and the draft board, and public speaking projects. The reason the bad-mouths dominated the news is their bizarre conduct attracted the attention of the press.

I was involved for several years with a protest organization in Park Slope, Brooklyn. I came in contact with dozens of 'Nam vets during that time, none of whom claimed they were spat on. And while I'd heard about such claims not a single one was ever substantiated.

That rather disturbing myth received sufficient publicity to encourage a journalist named Jerry Lembcke to research it by tracking down every such report and rumor to its origin, which led to the conclusion that there was absolutely no substance to it.

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

In fact, the essence of those reports was sufficiently offensive to warrant a formal investigation by the FBI, which also concluded that it was totally unfounded.

As one of many protesters who attended many demonstrations I can tell you that if I, or any number of other protesters, had seen someone spit on a homecoming GI, something would have been done about it.

The vast majority of protesters during that era were level-headed mainstream people, including many veterans. We were opposed to our military presence in Vietnam, not the troops. We never had anything but the most friendly relations with the homecoming vets we met, several of whom eventually joined our organization.

While I haven't seen a lot of heroes in my lifetime, I've seen brotherhood. I am a OIF 2x and I also did 6 months in Afghanistan. I was attached to 3rd-ID in March of 2003 to Feb 04 in Baghdad. I know what it's like to be in a war and see fellow soldiers perish. It may not be heroic, but it takes a lot to be there and see what it's like. So we should be commended and recognized for these things we saw and did. A lot of people wouldn't make the sacrifice. Even the ones that go into the military for financial or educational reasons know full well that the possibility of going to war is there.

MikeK and Milly, I hear ya both.

I don't want to minimize the sacrifice and courage of people in the war zone, I just think the word "hero" should be reserved for those who distinguish themselves with action "above and beyond the call of duty."

I recall the culture shock of coming back to a society which placed a high value on a lot of meaningless things after living in an environment where killing people was our daily occupation. We hunted the VC and NVA every day and we set up ambushes every night. And they hunted us every day and set up ambushes day and night. People don't really know what war is like unless they experience it. And little do they know that a large part of the experience is deprivation. The food is horrible canned crap. The water sometimes makes you sick. You sweat like a pig all day and freeze your ass at night. You're attacked by leeches and mosquitoes. You bathe in filthy rivers, when you get a chance. You don't change clothes once in three weeks. Your girlfriend's letters get fewer and farther between. You have to pour kerosine into the shit pots when you're back in base camp, which is heaven compared to the boonies. And when someone in your squad dies, all you say is, "It don't mean nuthin'," then you strip him of grenades and ammo and haul him off in a poncho.

I don't know what conditions and deprivations our people in Iraq face, but I'm sure it's as much a version of Hell as Vietnam was.

And no one even mentions, anymore, the sacrifices of the families of the soldiers. The families of National Guard troops sent to Iraq sometimes lost their homes because of the substantial loss of income yet weren't permitted housing on military bases nor health care at military facilities. They're expected to just "suck it up" and live in poverty for the duration. For everyone else, a flag lapel pin says it all.

It's shocking how little we compensate people for living under such conditions, people whose service we supposedly honor. AFTER sending troops to Iraq, the Bush Administration tried to eliminate hazardous duty pay for soldiers in the war zone! And every year, the Democrats have to fight the Republicans and the Bush Administration to get the VA the funding it needs. Bush says the new GI Bill will be too costly; meanwhile he's stuffing billions into the coffers of selected churches, and 17 billion in tax subsidies for oil companies, and billions in subsidies for tobacco farmers.

I think there was a big attitude change from "early Vietnam war" to "late Vietnam war". You could point to "Vet Offensive" of '68.. or "My Lai Massacre" (also in 1968), or maybe just the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, as the attitude divide. I was an Army ROTC cadet in 1971 and 1972. There was hostility. What was I to do.. my draft number was 6.. either I was in ROTC or I was going to Vietnam. But the idea wasn't good. More and more junior officers were coming home in body bags with gun shots in the back. I was counting on Nixon's plant to end the war... "Peace with Honor". .. There hasn't been a real bullshit line like that until "Homeland Security" and "war on terror"... we got a twofer! .. sorry.. "Patriot Act".. make it a threefer! (In 1973, I switched over to the USAF ROTC program.)

I think it was 1973, I met a USAF enlisted guy. He told me a story where he was hitch-hiking through Ohio (in uniform). Under normal attitude conditions, a military guy would get a ride in a snap. Instead of get spat on.. he was shot at. All he could do was run. I think they call that passive-aggressive behavior! (He would never get out in public again in uniform, if he could help it.)

After graduation in December 1975, I started my USAF Reserve service (my four years active duty obligation had been converted to an eight year reserve commitment, at the government's option... no more war, no need for active duty bodies.) The attitude that I would get from employers in the late 1970s, was .. "Need time off for military reserve duty? That's your problem!"

I have always done what I was supposed to do as an American. Some people wave the flag and all that, and are called patriotic.. and they really haven't done anything. Being called anti-patriotic for expression an opinion that does match someone else's is just BS. Expressing an opinion is American!

Tommy, by Rudyard Kipling

Heroes serve; non-heroes serve. Being a hero is not the only measure of character. How many heroes would trade all the honor they receive for having their legs, their arms, their eyes, etc., back?

Is this what was bashing my insides from 6 cars away in stop and go traffic on the 405.........

Greater praise I could only strive to have, thankyou kind sir.

Your a Thailand veteran as well? I am familiar with U-Tapeo late 67 and most of 68 as a 21E20.
I am far from any hero status.

You know what just hurts my soul to see on these types of boards, and it's the reason I generally avoid threads related to the military? It's these nut balls who make all military people out to be some kind of mindless killing machines.

I want to tell them about my father, who took bullets for them in WWII, about the man he was, the life we had living on military bases. The way he played every sport known to man with me and my 4 brothers, and coached little league. The way he taught us to always stand up for what we believe in and for those who are vulnerable, but never to be a bully. The way he taught me that I could do or be anything anyone else on Earth can, male or female, because I live in this country, and that with that privilege comes responsibility.

I want to tell them about my 4 brothers who all served and the kind, thoughtful, and gentle men that they all are.

I want to tell them how proud my younger brother is of his 17 yrs. of service (now serving with an airborne unit in Alaska), and how proud he is particularly of his service in Bosnia, and the gratitude, generosity, and warmth those people extended to him because he was standing between them and the killing and violence. I want to tell them about how my brother has felt being a Casualty Assistance Officer, yeah, the guy who knocks on the door of wives and mothers to tell them their loved one had fallen, and held their children's hands at air fields while their caskets were being unloaded, and checked the uniforms of his fallen brothers and sisters before their memorial service to make certain that every ribbon, every button was in place.

I want to tell them that I'm more proud of my short 2 yrs. of service in the USAF than almost anything else I've done in my life. I want to tell them that people serve because they believe in taking responsibility for this greatest experiment in human freedom and democracy in the history of the world and because they understand that without our volunteer military, we would be vulnerable and unable to stand in defense of so many other peoples and nations against tyranny. I want them to understand that when one troop is sent to war, WE ARE ALL AT WAR, and that they are OUR surrogates, and follow OUR orders.

I want to tell them that George Bush didn't start this war in Iraq, WE THE PEOPLE, who elected and re-elected him, did, and that the reason our men and women in the military don't rebel or quit, is because they have faith in ALL OF US and this form of government, and that WE will right this ship, as our democracy was designed to do. I want to tell them that the military is not an instrument of one powerful man, but of a nation, generally one of good intentions, one that may morally stumble, but has always managed to stand tall again on the side of freedom.

I'm not proud of the actions of this country or President Bush, or what he's done to the Iraqi people or our service men and women in the last 8 yrs., but I am proud that our military has not faltered or become a danger to us all by abandoning our form of government or us, the ones who are really in charge. They've waited out this president's term, hoping that WE would set things right, and we MUST.

I want to tell them these things, but I'm afraid it will once again all fall on deaf ears. No, it's not right to automatically call them all "heros" with some special entitlement because of their service, BUT their service and sacrifices should at least be respected, and not twisted into something dark because of the decisions that WE make as voters.

Yes, I too welcome you back home.

I feel like we're a nation without proper representation. Both parties have seemed to joined themselves at the hip. Something is terribly wrong with all of this in Washington.

I'm surprised that Randi would hang up on you like that saying what she said, if I understood your first post correctly.

I appreciate what you've had to say and I have no problem with any of it except for the above comment. And because I have special interest in this specific area I need to ask you if you have ever, yourself, actually seen anyone spit on a GI?

I'm not interested in anything you've read or heard, regardless of the source. Just what you have actually witnessed. And if you did see it happen I would appreciate a full description of the incident, before, during and after.

Thank you.

Hero, along with racism, love and hate is among the most over-used and elastic words in the American vocabulary.

I was in the military during peacetime, which makes me a "hero" in some peoples' eyes -- typically those who never served. I was a life guard for several summer seasons of my younger years and while I never saved anyone's life I was often referred to as a "hero" -- mostly by poor swimmers or non-swimmers. Those qualifying characteristics should afford some insight into the motivation for assigning heroism where it isn't deserved.

The accepted definition of heroism is, valor above and beyond the call of duty. Period.

Above and beyond.

MikeK--I was also a lifeguard for many years, and I saved 1 ONE kid, whose parents were standing 10 feet away. I saw him go down, and not come up. I swear I was running on water, and the lifeguard was 3 feet away and more concerned about her looks than safety. I got to him, threw him up and over my shoulder and got the water out of his lungs as I ran to the guard shack. I was off duty, my SISTER was in charge, and I read her the riot act, and she helped get me fired. Nice. Her guards suck, and I get fired. The boy made it, I went to see him and he didn't remember what happened. I learned right there and then about politics, sadly my sister hasn't, and this was when I was waiting to go to boot camp! I was WSQ on the first try, not bragging, just the facts.