If I were to compare my religion with yours, would I be comparing you to me instead ? If I have not studied your religion, then how could I compare our beliefs ? And yet some things are basic to all true religions to me, truth being a universially accepted quality of religious authority.

How did I gain my religion ? If I am self taught, then maybe I had a fool as a teacher. And if I do consider myself a teacher or a practicioner of my particular religion, how well do I example my beliefs ? You would have to know me pretty well for me to be teacher by example like the best of parents. I ended up doing as my parents did not as they said to do. And maybe, you really don't want a teacher anyway, but developing a deeper friendship, maybe we do need to understand each others religious beliefs, maybe not. Maybe we could not even become friends if I claimed I only hang with Christians. So much a fool would I be not to accept the universality of Love.

And could we come to know each other's definition of Evil ? Could we just say Hitler was an example of absolute evil, maybe. To exploit the fears, insecurities and weaknesses of fellow human beings is evil to me. Since, I think I somewhat know myself, I could exploit the fears, insecurities and weaknesses of others to gain whatever I want to gain for myself. Or, together we could overcome our common fears, threats to our insecurities and challenges to our character through mutual trust. Of course to destroy community then would be evil to me. To work at building community would be goodness unless the goal of building commmunity is destruction or self destruction as in Cult and handing out Kool-aid.

I guess live and let live concerning religion is a two way street for me. You have your own higher power or not and I got mine. With less comtempt prior to investigation, I may learn more of my own belief system through yours. But I will learn nothing from you if I have conempt for you or your religion before trying to forming a bond. I have more anger for those claiming to share my belief system than anyone else. I guess it's an engrained thing from people telling me I am a sinner, it's the end of the world, repent now, and generally exploitation of the fear of death. And yet my teachers, my elders and generally those I trust say to me live and let live, whatever another person does is on them. I did not create them, I cannot change them and I by myself cannot cure their evil. Perhaps they are not evil at all as who am I to judge.

Is there more to this story, I wonder. Having been taught, woe to those who cause the children to sin or suffer and the Law is patient to include karma (to me) I think there is more to be revealed. Hope is a good thing. In my world, inherent contempt is not the same as innocence or ignorance or century old teachings as Mens Rea. I guess there are numerous tools to be utilized for detachment. Practicing Faith is just one of them. Arrogance is a symtom of fear. Thank-you all for your insights.Communication is a two-way street, is it not ?

Do you believe that any organized religion is a cult? Are communes or ashrams cults in your mind? How do you conclude that?

This is a great thread. Best conversation we've had on the subject in quite a while

In my young, how can I piss off mom days, I told her I was giving up Hope

Thank you.

This is exactly right.

He wasn't calling to talk to Randi about the topic, he was calling to broadcast his believes, and in doing so, he insulted people that believe something different than him.

I think I can answer- a cult and/ or a religion denotes a group of people theoretically with similar beliefs who have agreed to follow certain principles, rites, traditions, dress codes, whatever. This person is simply a jesus freak all on her own, not necessarily a part of a group and therefore not part of a cult in spite of considering herself a christian, some of whom belong to various religions and/ or cults. If she is just following her own heart and mind; not following any kind of human leader, she can't be in a cult or a religion.

Even John Adams, no liberal, said “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion” Treaty of Tripoli 1797

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

One should not go to church if one wants to breathe pure air."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, 1886

Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give. Robert Ingersoll

“When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
-- Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. XIII, p. 506

Between Tuesday and Wednesday's shows I'm having a hard time justifying the monthly charge for the podcasts. I don't know if other people are feeling the same way, but something just seems off this week.

And before I get a "noob" comment, I've been listening to Randi since Day 1 at that other place and signed up for the Nova M podcasts the day they took away streaming audio at my job, so I do have a frame of reference.

Excellent post!

Sounds like Jefferson is dissing Christianity here. He'd better watch his step.



"the homage of reason" I like that. Very Enlightenment. Wouldn't go over well in Oklahoma though.

Come on over to our table. We'll buy you a beer. Actually, free beer for everyone. It's Friday.

Thanks L. Rey! Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - the exponential spread of this word over the years. Kind of like a virus or maybe a cancer, because the word is jumping over the religious fence and into politics (metastasizing).

No wonder, eh? Politics - religion - -- > should not bedfellows make.

My personal perspective of a cult is this: A group or movement that blindly follows a leader that does all of the thinking for them.

I may be wrong, if so please explain. I personally believe that this country was based on freedom. No one man, group, or association has the right to breach the Constitution of these United States. The people have the right to address the rulers, and can abolish said government with a Constitutional Congress.

So no group can push onto another any type of belief or faith. Christian/Judaic practices were used to base our way of life because at the time that was the best thing we had going for us, that allowed freedom and morality. A Christian has no right to look down upon an atheist or agnostic or any other religion.

It was wrong for this President to wave his bible, and take this country to war for profit. It was wrong to break out the federal credit card, we are destined to be the slaves of the FDIC.

Well, the only person in the Bible who got to see God only got to see God's butt:



I am a Christian, a life-long active member of the Presbyterian Church (USA) (the largest and the mainline Presby denomination). I'm also a natural-born citizen of the United States of America and love the Constitution (and cherish the separation of church and state, often to the disapproval of my fellow Christians). I'm bothered by Senator Obama's reopening of the Faith-Based Initiative (the late, great Molly Ivins put it "'faith-based institutions', formerly 'churches'"). My church and the Conservative synagogue down the street team up to run a shelter for homeless women and children, and while extra funding is always welcome, I'm wary of the additional legal burdens we'd get.

And to bring this thread to a screeching halt by bringing up theology:

In the 1920s, the old "northern" branch of the Presbyterian Church was deeply divided. A group of conservatives drew up a list of Five Fundamentals, beliefs that they required all pastors to profess. Others dissented, saying that it was an infringement on freedom of conscience. The church eventually split, with the Fundamentalists (as they were now known) leaving to form a small, hyperconservative denomination of their own. The remaining church continued in a tumult over how to interpret the Bible, until a German theologian named Karl Barth (who along with Martin Niemoller stood up to the Nazis) introduced the idea of "neo-orthodoxy". Barth had a print of Grunewald's Crucifixion over his desk.



On the left are Mary, Mary Magdalene and St. John the Evangelist. On the right (anachronistically) is John the Baptist holding a Bible and pointing to Jesus. His Latin word balloon translates as "he must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3.30).

Barth explained that just as John the Baptist points not to himself, but to Christ, so the Bible does not point to itself, but to Christ. For a Christian, the entire point of the Bible is the story of Jesus. It's a millennia-long story of creation, fall, redemption (a recurring theme in Christianity). Therefore, one of the most important means we use to interpret the Bible is through the "lens" of Jesus, his life and work and teachings (in some sense, this was Jefferson's intent in publishing the Jefferson Bible). Jesus himself said that everything in the Bible hangs on the twofold commandment to love God and neighbor.

As the theological descendants of John Calvin, Presbyterians bring the cheery doctrine of "total depravity". Essentially, we are all imperfect and undeserving of God's grace, yet God in God's love chooses to redeem us. We therefore understand that as humans we are more likely than not to get something wrong, so we have faith that we're on the right track and that God will help us to understand better.

Good post

That is because we do not belong to a cult.

I think that what it comes down to is that what is a cult and what isn't a cult is all in the eye of the beholder

I agree with Randi on this one, no promotion of religion by government. Been there, done that, doesn't work.

What I find unfair tho, is that she denounced the "cult" guy, but then went on to defend an Evangelical's right to proselytize. Seems to me, both parties are engaged in the same thing, conversion. Why does the Evangelical get a pass, but the "cult" guy gets stomped?

Yeah, I know, some here found the "cult" guy insulting, but I think if you asked an atheist about Randi's characterization of their position as a "belief", they would be just as insulted. Atheists don't consider their position a belief, but as a rational conclusion based on evidence or lack thereof.

Personally, it would take a hell of a lot more than what either of them said to insult me.

I am sure Randi defended the Evangelicals' right to proselytize (so long as it does not involve the government). The cult guy from what I understood/heard was insulting.

Grow up? I'm not the one that believes in imaginary beings and I'm not the one that listens closely to what a man in a dress has to say and I'm not the one who clutches a book that was written long before Johan Gutenberg invented the mechanical printing press to ensure accurate replicas. Grow up? Nah, I think it's you who should grow up. I did not judge you Judy, but you most certainly judged me.


You're a Jesus freak, at least you admit it. To be honest, you're the type of person I absolutely dislike the most when it comes to discussion on religion and because of you I may even piss off other Christians who will feel I'm attacking them for their belief in mythical fantasy and despite the way I say it, I actually believe strongly that everyone has a right to their own beliefs, just don't push it on me...you're walking that line already and this is the first time that I recall ever reading any of your posts.


Perhaps you should have spent more time studying the English language and less time trying to convert others. Perhaps you were too busy looking up your ancestry to show everyone that you're the most Christian person on the planet.

If a cult is a cult but faith is faith, why the fuck was I so out of line by saying that all organized religions are cults and faith is not? Having a hard time with this issue are we? I never knocked your faith but you tell me to "grow up" because I call ALL organized religions cults...interesting. You're making a big assumption that the word cult is exclusive to negativity and it is not.


You're genetically a Jesus freak? Good luck proving that one.

Like I said before, perhaps you should have spent less time looking up your ancestry to tout your uber-Christian genetics as a way to shove in other people's faces: "not only is my god better than your god, I'm more Christian than other Christians are."

As seems to be the case with you, you're confusing faith with fact. Anyone other than Jesus Christ is a false profit, to whom? You're being very hypocritical and very insulting to many people who do not share your views on Christianity. There are other religions out there, many more, many religions that would consider Jesus Christ a false profit.


The difference between Jesus Christ and Jim Jones is in your perception. I never met either of them, so I cannot say which one is a better person and I don't see what "religion" and "cult" has to do directly with Jesus Christ. You maintain that because Jesus Christ was supposedly the son of your God, that everyone should look upon him in the same way. Judge not Judy, lest ye be judged, remember?


This topic is about religion and whether they are cults, not about Jesus. Typical of fanatical Christians, you leap to defend your own faith by assuming Jesus Christ and his stories are fact and that everyone else should believe you 100% or else we'll all go to hell.


Bullshit. The civil rights and laws in this country are based on common sense. Pull your head out of your ass and stop assuming that just because there are some moral basis for things in this world that it originates upon YOUR religious brand.

Don't be a fool? Seems to me that you're nothing more than just a typical intolerant Christian who has no room for any belief but your own and that everyone should follow you. Who's the fool? Not me, I don't believe in Jesus, the same way I do not believe in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.


IMO, yes. Everyone assumes that cult is negative and to me it's not always the case. There are two main elements, one is that it's faith based, either in a religious way or spiritual, the other is that it's a group with a hierarchy, much like the Branch Dividians, Jonestown, the Manson Family, etc., any organized group IMO based on a faith, either in one man or woman or based on a god or gods or god-like creature(s). The Branch Dividians had their leader, David Koresh. Jonestown had James Jones. The Manson Family had Charles Manson. The Catholics have Jesus and the Pope.

Even a hippie commune, they are spiritually based and generally there is a leader or a council that leads the group.

The biggest thing that seems to be messed up is that most religious organizations have declared themselves good and all other religious organizations are bad. The other messed up thing is that people assume cult to mean the absolute worst and because people confuse religion based organizations with the actual faith, they rush to defend their cult as if it were an actual attack upon their faith and it is NOT.

There can be a certain smugness to atheists. While I do not believe in God in the traditional sense, I have long sense avoided religious debates in which I go in to the history of the major religions as it relates to authenticity. Even when you win the argument you lose.

There is plenty of smugness to go around. And what is "God in the traditional sense?" Whose God is it that you don't believe in. And what God do you believe in? And what arguments have you won but lost?

Like I have said, I am a Christian, at least I believe I am... lol. I am kinda of weird I guess, I know there is a God but I believe I am a Christian... ok..... The churches of the past have committed extremely horrendous crimes against our maker and humanity, they called this the"Dark Ages". I don't trust religions, even though the people may have the best intentions. We also know about Jim Jones, be bop comet, the Bakers, the Mormons killing the settlers and stealing the land, its all there as part of history. Then there is my lovely Cardinal Baloney here in Los Angeles. He allowed priests to molest little boys and moved them from parish to parish, disgusting. Now he is all behind the illegals, I think he wants the little boys.(I am sooo bad). I actually liked Baloney till the boys butts hit the news. He cried when they sued and won I bet. Anyway, one more point, Satanists are also a religion, will they get money from the government? Something to think about.

And never from Christians or others.

True....there is enough smugness to go around. I'm smug and the first to admit it. I'm satisfied with my atheism and there will no changes for me. But I also realize that some folks base their list of sins on likes and dislikes.

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index...ost&p=62933

Note the reference to "jungle bunnies"..

I guess anyone who questions faith is smug, unless it is faith that they are striving for and then apparently questioning is okay. It's that whole dark night of the soul thing. You can only question if you are trying to talk yourself into it.

That is a given. A lot of "religious" people vacillate between outwardly and inwardly smug vs. outwardly smug and inwardly insecure.

I have met many atheist that are not smug. It is usually a matter of emotional maturity and compassion for others.

Most Christians know absolutely zero about the origins of the Abrahamic religions. When you start going into the various religious counsels like Nicaea and Constantinople; start showing the parallels of various religious stories in the cult of Isis (which is were the images of the black Madonna and child originate); how the story of Jesus parallels Horus, Isis and Osiris etc., people will look at you like an alien.

I never claimed to be mature, just forgiven.

Don't forget Mithracism!

Compassion? I think it's hard to judge one's own. Emotional maturity? Maybe someday. I hope.

To convert people who worshiped the cult of Isis, the church converted the imagery of the cult of Isis into Jesus and Mary.

If you are saying that Christianity is mostly cobbled together from pre-existing religions I totally agree. I guess what I don't understand is the need for religion in the first place.

What I am getting at is that in some cases religion is the only thing holding some people together. If you are armed with facts, have a certain degree of charisma, and listen closely, you can shake a persons faith even if they will not admit it to your face. Do you want to destroy someones psychological framework without anything to replace it. The truth does not necessarily set everybody free. Sometimes the gratification of "winning" an argument is not worth the price. A person's faith may be the only thing keeping them from jumping of a bridge.

Conversion or shaking people's faith is not my goal. I think that people have to come to atheism on their own. I think that's the only way. Also, atheists have no founder who instructed them to go forth and preach atheism throughout the world. That motivation is not there with me and I don't think it's there with most atheists.

When I argue with Christians (because it is mainly Christians here) it is not to get them to stop believing, it is to get them to justify, if they can, some of the ways that they choose to put their beliefs into action. People of other faiths or no faith at all have the right to live free of the parochial agenda and laws of any religion other than the one of their choice. But you make a valid point I think and I should work harder to make it clear where I'm coming from.

Because you don't have the right not to be offended.

Seems to me, Randi's tift with the "cult" guy was the lite version of the Danish newspaper controversy in which Muhammad was depicted in unflattering editorial cartoons. If you recall, the insult Muslims felt led to much death and destruction across the world. If only those Muslims had approached religious criticism with such calm and reasoned counterpoints as Randi mustered, all of that nastiness could have been avoided. Oh well.

I thought Randi did an great job of navigating this sticky issue. My first instinct was recoiling in horror at anything "faith based" and the government doing together. After the discussion I still wasn't sold that Obama should keep this office in place. But well done Randi on being even handed and respectful of organized religion even when it isn't a personal choice.