Sorry, I don't give a flying damn which side or who commits torture, but you don't do it on kids!!!!!!!! These soldiers should be dragged by their toenails and jailed for the rest of their lives in a dung filled hole in the ground!!!
I bet this crap goes on ALL THE TIME!!!!
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m45397&hd=&size=1&l=e
10-year-old subjected to torture by Israeli soldiers
July 2, 2008
A 10-year-old boy was subjected to physical abuse amounting to torture for 2.5 hours by Israeli soldiers who stormed his family’s shop on 11 June, seeking information on the location of a handgun. The boy was repeatedly beaten, slapped and punched in the head and stomach, forced to hold a stress position for half and hour, and threatened. He was deeply shocked and lost two molar teeth as a result of the assault.
On Wednesday 11 June 2008, at around 10:30am, 10-year-old Ezzat, his brother Makkawi (7) and sister Lara (8) were in their father’s shop selling animal feed and eggs in the village of Sanniriya, near the West Bank city of Qalqiliya. The children were suddenly startled to see two Israeli soldiers storm in to the shop.
Interrogation and abuse in the shop
One soldier wearing a black T-shirt started shouting in a loud, menacing voice in Arabic, "your father sent us to you to collect his gun". A terrified Ezzat responded, "My father does not own a gun". The soldier responded by slapping Ezzat hard across the right cheek and his brother Makawi across his face. The soldier then ordered Makkawi and Lara to leave the shop. Once the younger children had left the soldier demanded once again that Ezzat hand over his father’s gun. Although Ezzat repeated that his father did not own a gun the soldier ordered him to search for it in the sacks containing the animal feed. Ezzat kept insisting that there was no gun in the shop so the soldier slapped him once again, this time across his left cheek.
One of Ezzat’s friends, realising that something was wrong, tried to enter the shop but was kicked by the soldier standing at the door and prevented from entering. Soon a group of local people had gathered outside the shop. Some of the people in the group also tried to enter the shop but were prevented from doing so by the soldier at the door.
The soldier in the black T-shirt asked him once again to produce the gun. Ezzat answered, "We do not have anything". The soldier responded by punching him hard in the stomach causing Ezzat to fall over on to empty egg boxes. Ezzat started screaming and crying out from pain and fear. The soldier in the black T-shirt started making fun of Ezzat and imitated him crying. Ezzat remained in the shop alone with the soldiers for a further 15 minutes when the soldier in black abruptly grabbed him by his T-shirt and dragged him out of the shop. Ezzat asked the soldier if he could lock up his father’s shop but the soldier said he wanted it to remain open so that it could be robbed. The soldier also threatened to put Ezzat in his jeep and take him away.
On approaching his house Ezzat saw many Israeli military officials surrounding the house and a number of green military vehicles parked outside. Once they were out of the shop, Ezzat was ordered to walk in front of the soldiers to his house, whilst a gun was pointed at his back. The soldiers hit him several times on the nape along the way. On approaching his house Ezzat saw many Israeli military officials surrounding the house and a number of green military vehicles parked outside. One of the olive coloured jeeps had the word "police" written on it.
Find me this story in a legitimate source.
QUOTE (Sinisterblogger @ Jul 3 2008, 05:59 PM) 
Find me this story in a legitimate source.
I'll see what I may find to help contribute to these reports of torture to kids. I hope this helps to open your eyes if they find it difficult that children are tortured.
http://www.imemc.org/article/49612
Report: Palestinian children in Israeli detention abused, tortured
Tuesday July 24, 2007 19:05
author by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Report this post to the editors
A report issued by Defense for Children International (DCI), called �Children Behind Bars�, found that during 2006 and the first half of 2007, the vast majority of children apprehended by the Israeli forces were imprisoned.
Only 3 to 5% of the juveniles abducted were granted bail pending trial.
DCI also noted that over 99% of the children tried pleaded guilty and the tiny minority that pleaded not guilty were eventually found guilty and sentenced.
The human rights organization drew on articles from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to highlight that accused individuals have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
DCI said the children confessed to the charges brought against them after extended periods of interrogation, which occurred before their court appearance.
The report includes personal testimonies from children that expose physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the Israeli army and brutal treatment during lengthy periods of interrogation. At the end of the interrogation process the children were told to sign papers, despite not knowing what they were signing.
Torture
DCI noted that "a central aspect of the interrogation phase is the use of particular forms of torture and ill treatment. Statements made by Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons, to Defense for Children International within this article, illustrate the varying types of methods used."
The report highlights the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles stating that no one should be subject to torture.
16-year-old Assem Lufti Abdel Lattif Khalil recounts his experience of torture at the hands of Israeli soldiers. He was beaten and put in a stress position outdoors in the rain. He spent 40 days in an interrogation centre.
One 15-year-old said that he was sexually abused and beaten repeatedly in sensitive areas of his body.
DCI says, "The overall effect of this is the erosion and virtual depletion of a Palestinian accused�s rights during the arrest and interrogation phase. A Palestinian child under arrest and during interrogation does not have the right to silence; the right to immediate and liberal access to a lawyer; the right to be advised of his or her rights while under arrest and interrogation; the right not to be assaulted, abused or tortured; the right to have contact with a family member or support person and; the right to be presumed innocent."
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QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 3 2008, 06:56 PM)
I'll see what I may find to help contribute to these reports of torture to kids. I hope this helps to open your eyes if they find it difficult that children are tortured.
http://www.imemc.org/article/49612
Report: Palestinian children in Israeli detention abused, tortured
Tuesday July 24, 2007 19:05
author by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Report this post to the editors
A report issued by Defense for Children International (DCI), called �Children Behind Bars�, found that during 2006 and the first half of 2007, the vast majority of children apprehended by the Israeli forces were imprisoned.
Only 3 to 5% of the juveniles abducted were granted bail pending trial.
DCI also noted that over 99% of the children tried pleaded guilty and the tiny minority that pleaded not guilty were eventually found guilty and sentenced.
The human rights organization drew on articles from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to highlight that accused individuals have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
DCI said the children confessed to the charges brought against them after extended periods of interrogation, which occurred before their court appearance.
The report includes personal testimonies from children that expose physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the Israeli army and brutal treatment during lengthy periods of interrogation. At the end of the interrogation process the children were told to sign papers, despite not knowing what they were signing.
Torture
DCI noted that "a central aspect of the interrogation phase is the use of particular forms of torture and ill treatment. Statements made by Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons, to Defense for Children International within this article, illustrate the varying types of methods used."
The report highlights the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles stating that no one should be subject to torture.
16-year-old Assem Lufti Abdel Lattif Khalil recounts his experience of torture at the hands of Israeli soldiers. He was beaten and put in a stress position outdoors in the rain. He spent 40 days in an interrogation centre.
One 15-year-old said that he was sexually abused and beaten repeatedly in sensitive areas of his body.
DCI says, "The overall effect of this is the erosion and virtual depletion of a Palestinian accused�s rights during the arrest and interrogation phase. A Palestinian child under arrest and during interrogation does not have the right to silence; the right to immediate and liberal access to a lawyer; the right to be advised of his or her rights while under arrest and interrogation; the right not to be assaulted, abused or tortured; the right to have contact with a family member or support person and; the right to be presumed innocent."
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© 2001-2008 IMEMC NEWS. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by IMEMC NEWS. Disclaimer | Privacy | IMEMC Website is powered by Caterized.net
http://www.imemc.org/article/49612
Report: Palestinian children in Israeli detention abused, tortured
Tuesday July 24, 2007 19:05
author by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Report this post to the editors
A report issued by Defense for Children International (DCI), called �Children Behind Bars�, found that during 2006 and the first half of 2007, the vast majority of children apprehended by the Israeli forces were imprisoned.
Only 3 to 5% of the juveniles abducted were granted bail pending trial.
DCI also noted that over 99% of the children tried pleaded guilty and the tiny minority that pleaded not guilty were eventually found guilty and sentenced.
The human rights organization drew on articles from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to highlight that accused individuals have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
DCI said the children confessed to the charges brought against them after extended periods of interrogation, which occurred before their court appearance.
The report includes personal testimonies from children that expose physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the Israeli army and brutal treatment during lengthy periods of interrogation. At the end of the interrogation process the children were told to sign papers, despite not knowing what they were signing.
Torture
DCI noted that "a central aspect of the interrogation phase is the use of particular forms of torture and ill treatment. Statements made by Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons, to Defense for Children International within this article, illustrate the varying types of methods used."
The report highlights the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles stating that no one should be subject to torture.
16-year-old Assem Lufti Abdel Lattif Khalil recounts his experience of torture at the hands of Israeli soldiers. He was beaten and put in a stress position outdoors in the rain. He spent 40 days in an interrogation centre.
One 15-year-old said that he was sexually abused and beaten repeatedly in sensitive areas of his body.
DCI says, "The overall effect of this is the erosion and virtual depletion of a Palestinian accused�s rights during the arrest and interrogation phase. A Palestinian child under arrest and during interrogation does not have the right to silence; the right to immediate and liberal access to a lawyer; the right to be advised of his or her rights while under arrest and interrogation; the right not to be assaulted, abused or tortured; the right to have contact with a family member or support person and; the right to be presumed innocent."
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© 2001-2008 IMEMC NEWS. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by IMEMC NEWS. Disclaimer | Privacy | IMEMC Website is powered by Caterized.net
DING!!!! This is from an Arab propaganda source...
This is why the Occupation of the West Bank must end.
It is destroying and eating away at Israel's soul like a cancer.
Support the B'Tselem Center, which tries to make sure soldiers are accountable for HR violations like this.
http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTsel..._Difference.asp
It is destroying and eating away at Israel's soul like a cancer.
Support the B'Tselem Center, which tries to make sure soldiers are accountable for HR violations like this.
http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTsel..._Difference.asp
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 3 2008, 05:56 PM)
I'll see what I may find to help contribute to these reports of torture to kids. I hope this helps to open your eyes if they find it difficult that children are tortured.
http://www.imemc.org/article/49612
Report: Palestinian children in Israeli detention abused, tortured
Tuesday July 24, 2007 19:05
author by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Report this post to the editors
A report issued by Defense for Children International (DCI), called �Children Behind Bars�, found that during 2006 and the first half of 2007, the vast majority of children apprehended by the Israeli forces were imprisoned.
Only 3 to 5% of the juveniles abducted were granted bail pending trial.
DCI also noted that over 99% of the children tried pleaded guilty and the tiny minority that pleaded not guilty were eventually found guilty and sentenced.
The human rights organization drew on articles from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to highlight that accused individuals have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
DCI said the children confessed to the charges brought against them after extended periods of interrogation, which occurred before their court appearance.
The report includes personal testimonies from children that expose physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the Israeli army and brutal treatment during lengthy periods of interrogation. At the end of the interrogation process the children were told to sign papers, despite not knowing what they were signing.
Torture
DCI noted that "a central aspect of the interrogation phase is the use of particular forms of torture and ill treatment. Statements made by Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons, to Defense for Children International within this article, illustrate the varying types of methods used."
The report highlights the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles stating that no one should be subject to torture.
16-year-old Assem Lufti Abdel Lattif Khalil recounts his experience of torture at the hands of Israeli soldiers. He was beaten and put in a stress position outdoors in the rain. He spent 40 days in an interrogation centre.
One 15-year-old said that he was sexually abused and beaten repeatedly in sensitive areas of his body.
DCI says, "The overall effect of this is the erosion and virtual depletion of a Palestinian accused�s rights during the arrest and interrogation phase. A Palestinian child under arrest and during interrogation does not have the right to silence; the right to immediate and liberal access to a lawyer; the right to be advised of his or her rights while under arrest and interrogation; the right not to be assaulted, abused or tortured; the right to have contact with a family member or support person and; the right to be presumed innocent."
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© 2001-2008 IMEMC NEWS. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by IMEMC NEWS. Disclaimer | Privacy | IMEMC Website is powered by Caterized.net
http://www.imemc.org/article/49612
Report: Palestinian children in Israeli detention abused, tortured
Tuesday July 24, 2007 19:05
author by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Report this post to the editors
A report issued by Defense for Children International (DCI), called �Children Behind Bars�, found that during 2006 and the first half of 2007, the vast majority of children apprehended by the Israeli forces were imprisoned.
Only 3 to 5% of the juveniles abducted were granted bail pending trial.
DCI also noted that over 99% of the children tried pleaded guilty and the tiny minority that pleaded not guilty were eventually found guilty and sentenced.
The human rights organization drew on articles from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to highlight that accused individuals have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
DCI said the children confessed to the charges brought against them after extended periods of interrogation, which occurred before their court appearance.
The report includes personal testimonies from children that expose physical and sexual abuse at the hands of the Israeli army and brutal treatment during lengthy periods of interrogation. At the end of the interrogation process the children were told to sign papers, despite not knowing what they were signing.
Torture
DCI noted that "a central aspect of the interrogation phase is the use of particular forms of torture and ill treatment. Statements made by Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons, to Defense for Children International within this article, illustrate the varying types of methods used."
The report highlights the Universal Declaration of Human Rights articles stating that no one should be subject to torture.
16-year-old Assem Lufti Abdel Lattif Khalil recounts his experience of torture at the hands of Israeli soldiers. He was beaten and put in a stress position outdoors in the rain. He spent 40 days in an interrogation centre.
One 15-year-old said that he was sexually abused and beaten repeatedly in sensitive areas of his body.
DCI says, "The overall effect of this is the erosion and virtual depletion of a Palestinian accused�s rights during the arrest and interrogation phase. A Palestinian child under arrest and during interrogation does not have the right to silence; the right to immediate and liberal access to a lawyer; the right to be advised of his or her rights while under arrest and interrogation; the right not to be assaulted, abused or tortured; the right to have contact with a family member or support person and; the right to be presumed innocent."
<< Back To Newswire
© 2001-2008 IMEMC NEWS. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by IMEMC NEWS. Disclaimer | Privacy | IMEMC Website is powered by Caterized.net
The one-sided nature of the Defense for Children International - Palistine Section is very apparent from reading these "Children Behind Bars" articles.
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/doclist.cfm?categoryid=10
If the organization was credible, it would be focused on the children's plight from both Palestinian and Israeli actions. Instead it is focused only on supposed Israeli actions.
DCI/PS doesn't offer any credible evidence of the attrocities being portrayed by them, other than the DCI/PS articles themselves.
I would wager that some American soldiers in Iraq have also tortured 10 year olds.
PS. We've held 15 yr olds in custody at GITMO.
QUOTE (RealLiberal1 @ Jul 3 2008, 07:33 PM)
I would wager that some American soldiers in Iraq have also tortured 10 year olds.
Do you have anything to back up your wager?
QUOTE (RealLiberal1 @ Jul 3 2008, 08:33 PM)
I would wager that some American soldiers in Iraq have also tortured 10 year olds.
I would wager that some soldier from any country from any time in history has tortured 10 year olds.
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 3 2008, 07:02 PM)
DING!!!! This is from an Arab propaganda source...
Would you accept it from B'Tselem, an Israeli source?
B'Tselem on use of torture by the IDF
http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp
Incidentally, B'Tselem records such violations both by Palestinian and Israeli authorities.
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 3 2008, 07:40 PM)
I would wager that some soldier from any country from any time in history has tortured 10 year olds.
I would have to agree.
QUOTE (RealLiberal1 @ Jul 3 2008, 08:44 PM)
I would have to agree.
would you assume or expect that our army -and in particular, the soldiers - is somehow different than other armies?
QUOTE (Seeker1 @ Jul 3 2008, 07:42 PM)
Would you accept it from B'Tselem, an Israeli source?
B'Tselem on use of torture by the IDF
http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp
Incidentally, B'Tselem records such violations both by Palestinian and Israeli authorities.
B'Tselem on use of torture by the IDF
http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp
Incidentally, B'Tselem records such violations both by Palestinian and Israeli authorities.
I don't see anything in your link that talks about subjecting children to torture, which is the subject of the thread.
QUOTE (Seeker1 @ Jul 3 2008, 08:42 PM)
Would you accept it from B'Tselem, an Israeli source?
B'Tselem on use of torture by the IDF
http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp
Incidentally, B'Tselem records such violations both by Palestinian and Israeli authorities.
B'Tselem on use of torture by the IDF
http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp
Incidentally, B'Tselem records such violations both by Palestinian and Israeli authorities.
I indeed might more readily accept the source... where is the reference to the torture of CHILDREN?
QUOTE (Mayoria @ Jul 3 2008, 07:50 PM)
would you assume or expect that our army -and in particular, the soldiers - is somehow different than other armies?
As a so-called free country we should be setting an example in regards to humanity...which we are not!
Not all other military forces implement waterboarding.
Not all other military forces have Gitmo or Abu Ghraib.
B'tselem would be an acceptable source, but find me the actual story referenced at the top of the thread.
And that IMEMC is nothing but a Palestinian propaganda arm, as are most Palestinian media sources.
Nobody has found that story in a mainstream news website? I'm therefore inclined not to believe it.
And that IMEMC is nothing but a Palestinian propaganda arm, as are most Palestinian media sources.
Nobody has found that story in a mainstream news website? I'm therefore inclined not to believe it.
QUOTE (Sinisterblogger @ Jul 3 2008, 10:11 PM)
Nobody has found that story in a mainstream news website? I'm therefore inclined not to believe it.
Unlike QBC-Peak, I don't think that Defense of Children International is a untrustworthy source.
They appear to cover all parts of the world.
I do admit that of the 3 subsections covering the Middle East, only the Palestinian subsection works - the Israeli and Lebanese ones are missing.
So there is no working Israeli site showing - just for example - the horrors faced by children in Sderot.
That said, it seems to be worldwide in focus and also looking at issues of juvenile labor and juvenile justice.
http://www.dci-is.org/
I don't think I would call it a "Palestinian propaganda outlet".
That said, I'd also be careful to label all Arab or Palestinian sources that, as well. Uruknet is Iraqi.
You know I am first to join you and Viewer when Israel is being criticized unfairly.
Unfortunately, this incident appears to have occurred, and is one I hope will result in some accountability for the perps.
QUOTE (RealLiberal1 @ Jul 3 2008, 08:59 PM)
As a so-called free country we should be setting an example in regards to humanity...which we are not!
Not all other military forces implement waterboarding.
Not all other military forces have Gitmo or Abu Ghraib.
Not all other military forces implement waterboarding.
Not all other military forces have Gitmo or Abu Ghraib.
According to what I have observed and read about our Amies, they ARE setting an example already.
There may be more progress to be made, certainly, but I'm convinced they are ahead of the curve in regards to humanity.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull
This is an article from a real, legitimate, and I might add, extremely pro-Israel site, that examines an overall trend of detainee abuse within the IDF. I present it to you in an effort to promote fair and reasonable discussion of this issue, without resorting to citing propaganda and using it to incite anti-Zionist outrage.
Yes, there is a problem within the IDF of maltreating Palestinian prisoners. It is correct and proper to criticize this problem. However, there is a difference between criticizing the IDF for real stuff, and making up horrific stories in an effort to demonize Israel and Zionism.
Remember the video of the 12 year old Palestinian boy who was caught in the crossfire and 'killed by Israeli soldiers?'
That incident may have been staged by the French cameraman in an effort to garner sympathy for the Palestinian cause.
Be careful of your sources.
This is an article from a real, legitimate, and I might add, extremely pro-Israel site, that examines an overall trend of detainee abuse within the IDF. I present it to you in an effort to promote fair and reasonable discussion of this issue, without resorting to citing propaganda and using it to incite anti-Zionist outrage.
Yes, there is a problem within the IDF of maltreating Palestinian prisoners. It is correct and proper to criticize this problem. However, there is a difference between criticizing the IDF for real stuff, and making up horrific stories in an effort to demonize Israel and Zionism.
Remember the video of the 12 year old Palestinian boy who was caught in the crossfire and 'killed by Israeli soldiers?'
That incident may have been staged by the French cameraman in an effort to garner sympathy for the Palestinian cause.
Be careful of your sources.
QUOTE (Seeker1 @ Jul 3 2008, 09:22 PM)
Unlike QBC-Peak, I don't think that Defense of Children International is a untrustworthy source.
They appear to cover all parts of the world.
I do admit that of the 3 subsections covering the Middle East, only the Palestinian subsection works - the Israeli and Lebanese ones are missing.
So there is no working Israeli site showing - just for example - the horrors faced by children in Sderot.
That said, it seems to be worldwide in focus and also looking at issues of juvenile labor and juvenile justice.
http://www.dci-is.org/
I don't think I would call it a "Palestinian propaganda outlet".
That said, I'd also be careful to label all Arab or Palestinian sources that, as well. Uruknet is Iraqi.
You know I am first to join you and Viewer when Israel is being criticized unfairly.
Unfortunately, this incident appears to have occurred, and is one I hope will result in some accountability for the perps.
They appear to cover all parts of the world.
I do admit that of the 3 subsections covering the Middle East, only the Palestinian subsection works - the Israeli and Lebanese ones are missing.
So there is no working Israeli site showing - just for example - the horrors faced by children in Sderot.
That said, it seems to be worldwide in focus and also looking at issues of juvenile labor and juvenile justice.
http://www.dci-is.org/
I don't think I would call it a "Palestinian propaganda outlet".
That said, I'd also be careful to label all Arab or Palestinian sources that, as well. Uruknet is Iraqi.
You know I am first to join you and Viewer when Israel is being criticized unfairly.
Unfortunately, this incident appears to have occurred, and is one I hope will result in some accountability for the perps.
If this incident had actually occurred as written, it would be all over the Web. As it is, I googled it and found it only on a handful of pro-Intifada blogs and websites. That instantly makes me suspicious of it.
Hamas and the other Palestinian extremist groups have a nasty habit of planting propaganda in news sources in an effort to further their cause. Be warned (that goes for everyone).
QUOTE (QBC @ Jul 3 2008, 08:38 PM)
Do you have anything to back up your wager?
Did you see the "winter soldiers" testimony on C-Span? I think it was also on Democracy Now. There has been testimony that we tortured children in front of their parents.
QUOTE (Dessalines @ Jul 3 2008, 09:30 PM)
Did you see the "winter soldiers" testimony on C-Span? I think it was also on Democracy Now. There has been testimony that we tortured children in front of their parents.
Were you refering to the original Winter soldier Investigation from the Vietnam War, or the more recent Iraq / Afghanistan Winter Soldier testimony?
In any case, I haven't listened to any of the testimony.
I concede that there are probably isolated incidents of attrocities that are being committed by American soldiers. The point I was trying to make is that these isolated incidents are not reflective of military policy.
There are monsters who happen to be in the military, just as there are monsters amongst us here back home. Wherever they are found, they should be dealt with severly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5100
http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier
QUOTE (Seeker1 @ Jul 3 2008, 09:22 PM)
Unlike QBC-Peak, I don't think that Defense of Children International is a untrustworthy source.
They appear to cover all parts of the world.
I do admit that of the 3 subsections covering the Middle East, only the Palestinian subsection works - the Israeli and Lebanese ones are missing.
So there is no working Israeli site showing - just for example - the horrors faced by children in Sderot.
That said, it seems to be worldwide in focus and also looking at issues of juvenile labor and juvenile justice.
http://www.dci-is.org/
I don't think I would call it a "Palestinian propaganda outlet".
That said, I'd also be careful to label all Arab or Palestinian sources that, as well. Uruknet is Iraqi.
You know I am first to join you and Viewer when Israel is being criticized unfairly.
Unfortunately, this incident appears to have occurred, and is one I hope will result in some accountability for the perps.
They appear to cover all parts of the world.
I do admit that of the 3 subsections covering the Middle East, only the Palestinian subsection works - the Israeli and Lebanese ones are missing.
So there is no working Israeli site showing - just for example - the horrors faced by children in Sderot.
That said, it seems to be worldwide in focus and also looking at issues of juvenile labor and juvenile justice.
http://www.dci-is.org/
I don't think I would call it a "Palestinian propaganda outlet".
That said, I'd also be careful to label all Arab or Palestinian sources that, as well. Uruknet is Iraqi.
You know I am first to join you and Viewer when Israel is being criticized unfairly.
Unfortunately, this incident appears to have occurred, and is one I hope will result in some accountability for the perps.
I wasn't calling the Defense of Children International an untrustworthy source. I was only referring to the Palestinian section.
From their affiliation statement, it looks like they are an independant section with their own agenda. From reading the articles, I felt it was very one sided in its position regarding the children.
"Consequently, DCI-Palestine develops its own programs according to Palestinian children’s needs and priorities."
It appears that IPS also supports the torture of children taking place in the recent past. This is very distrubing!!! As I have previously stated, all sides, no matter who they are must be exposed for their actions and dealt with!!!! Does one ever wonder what makes so many young adults holding hate for another different from it's own ethic background?? Being tortured as a child just might do that.
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=37283
MIDEAST: Israelis Torturing Palestinian Children
By Nora Barrows-Friedman
DHEISHEH REFUGEE CAMP, Occupied West Bank, Apr 10 (IPS) - Mohammed Mahsiri, a resident of Dheisheh refugee camp in the occupied West Bank, sits in a crowded café, a red kuffiyeh wrapped around his neck and an iconic portrait of Che Guevara emblazoned on his black t-shirt.
About a year and a half ago, he tells IPS, he and his friend were walking down the street when Israeli military jeeps surrounded them, shouted at them in Hebrew to stop, and forced them inside a jeep.
"I was taken to a detention centre and interrogated," Mohammed says. "The interrogation would begin at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and would finish after eleven pm. I was beaten all the time, especially if the soldiers did not get the answers they wanted.
"I was sent to be beaten by other soldiers and forced to stand in the rain with only thin clothes on. They would try to convince me that I did something that I did not do in order to get the confession they wanted. After being tortured at the detention centre for one month, I was in prison for 13 months."
Shocking photographs of torture at U.S. military bases and detention centres in Iraq and Afghanistan outraged people across the globe, but Palestinians say they have endured similar treatment inside Israeli interrogation centres since the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
But Mohammed Mahsiri's story is different. He endured considerable physical and psychological torture by Israeli interrogators and prison guards when he was just short of 17 years old.
What is being witnessed and documented within the detention centres and prison camps is widespread, systematic violation of international laws experienced by Palestinian children under 18 years old, including torture, interrogation, physical beatings, deplorable living conditions and no access to fair trial, according to reports by human rights groups and legal observers.
Under Israeli military orders in force inside the occupied West Bank and Gaza, any Palestinian over the age of 16 is considered an adult, while inside Israel the age of an adult is 18 -- even though Israel is a signatory to the International Convention of the Rights of the Child, which defines all children as under 18 years old.
Moreover, Palestinian children over 14 years old are tried as adults in an Israeli military court, and are often put into prisons with adults. These are also direct violations of international law.
According to the latest figures offered by an independent group, there are 398 Palestinian children currently inside Israeli detention centres and prisons. Ayed Abuqtaish, research cocoordinator with Defence for Children International's Ramallah offices, told IPS that the youngest child being held in prison is just 14 years old.
"Usually, the Israeli troops invade the child's house in the middle of the night, in order to frighten the child and his family," Abuqtaish told IPS. "Many Israeli soldiers and vehicles surround the house, and other soldiers invade or force their way into the house.
"They intimidate the child to prepare him for interrogation. When the child arrives at the interrogation centre, they employ different methods of torture."
There are widespread reports of physical beatings, Abuqtaish says, "but currently, they concentrate mainly on psychological torture like sleep deprivation, or depriving him of food or water, or putting him in solitary confinement, or threatening him with the demolition of his home or the arrest of other family members. Children have also reported that the Israeli interrogators have threatened to sexually abuse them."
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=37283
MIDEAST: Israelis Torturing Palestinian Children
By Nora Barrows-Friedman
DHEISHEH REFUGEE CAMP, Occupied West Bank, Apr 10 (IPS) - Mohammed Mahsiri, a resident of Dheisheh refugee camp in the occupied West Bank, sits in a crowded café, a red kuffiyeh wrapped around his neck and an iconic portrait of Che Guevara emblazoned on his black t-shirt.
About a year and a half ago, he tells IPS, he and his friend were walking down the street when Israeli military jeeps surrounded them, shouted at them in Hebrew to stop, and forced them inside a jeep.
"I was taken to a detention centre and interrogated," Mohammed says. "The interrogation would begin at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and would finish after eleven pm. I was beaten all the time, especially if the soldiers did not get the answers they wanted.
"I was sent to be beaten by other soldiers and forced to stand in the rain with only thin clothes on. They would try to convince me that I did something that I did not do in order to get the confession they wanted. After being tortured at the detention centre for one month, I was in prison for 13 months."
Shocking photographs of torture at U.S. military bases and detention centres in Iraq and Afghanistan outraged people across the globe, but Palestinians say they have endured similar treatment inside Israeli interrogation centres since the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
But Mohammed Mahsiri's story is different. He endured considerable physical and psychological torture by Israeli interrogators and prison guards when he was just short of 17 years old.
What is being witnessed and documented within the detention centres and prison camps is widespread, systematic violation of international laws experienced by Palestinian children under 18 years old, including torture, interrogation, physical beatings, deplorable living conditions and no access to fair trial, according to reports by human rights groups and legal observers.
Under Israeli military orders in force inside the occupied West Bank and Gaza, any Palestinian over the age of 16 is considered an adult, while inside Israel the age of an adult is 18 -- even though Israel is a signatory to the International Convention of the Rights of the Child, which defines all children as under 18 years old.
Moreover, Palestinian children over 14 years old are tried as adults in an Israeli military court, and are often put into prisons with adults. These are also direct violations of international law.
According to the latest figures offered by an independent group, there are 398 Palestinian children currently inside Israeli detention centres and prisons. Ayed Abuqtaish, research cocoordinator with Defence for Children International's Ramallah offices, told IPS that the youngest child being held in prison is just 14 years old.
"Usually, the Israeli troops invade the child's house in the middle of the night, in order to frighten the child and his family," Abuqtaish told IPS. "Many Israeli soldiers and vehicles surround the house, and other soldiers invade or force their way into the house.
"They intimidate the child to prepare him for interrogation. When the child arrives at the interrogation centre, they employ different methods of torture."
There are widespread reports of physical beatings, Abuqtaish says, "but currently, they concentrate mainly on psychological torture like sleep deprivation, or depriving him of food or water, or putting him in solitary confinement, or threatening him with the demolition of his home or the arrest of other family members. Children have also reported that the Israeli interrogators have threatened to sexually abuse them."
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 4 2008, 10:51 AM)
It appears that IPS also supports the torture of children taking place in the recent past. This is very distrubing!!! As I have previously stated, all sides, no matter who they are must be exposed for their actions and dealt with!!!! Does one ever wonder what makes so many young adults holding hate for another different from it's own ethic background?? Being tortured as a child just might do that.
Would really like to understand where you are hoping to go with this thread. You state that all sides must be exposed for their actions, yet your posts betray your claims to be an independant observer - as you seem to be obsessed only with supposed Israeli actions. As proof of these supposed actions, you provide only links to sources with eventual Palestinian orgin.
I did some serious google searching on this subject, and found that virtually every article had its origins in some form or fashion with DCI-PAL - which I have already spoken to previously.
The particular story you linked to stems from an interview with Mohammed Mahsiri, but we have no idea how credible his story is. In order to embelish Mohammed's interview, Nora Barrows-Friedman sites a lot of background material, that not surprisingly has its origins in claims made by DCI-PAL.
If your really are as independant as you claim, maybe you could balance your posting with some links to Hamas attrocities.
QUOTE (Sinisterblogger @ Jul 3 2008, 10:27 PM)
without resorting to citing propaganda and using it to incite anti-Zionist outrage.
There's been enough reporting about children being killed and tortured in these Middle East regions without one's agenda to selectively declare certain sources as propaganda in their effort to discredit the OP's report. I respect your own opinions, but I object to your attempt to insinuate that such a source in this OP was being used to incite anti-Zionist outrage. It's true that this OP reflects that there should be something done, or even outrage about the fact that children are being killed and tortured by the IFD AND also ANYONE else who practices such offensive jestures and actions against children under 18. It certainly wasn't a declared mission on my behalf against the Zionist or all (soldiers) of Israel. I have complaints about the things the Israelis does and represents sometimes, (of which is my right to do so), but again, that wasn't my focal point of this OP. I hold complaints against the US gov more so than those you call Zionists, so there's no need to cry wolf when it doesn't exist. There's nothing you can say or try to do that would change my mind that we need not pay attention to these reports (due to some sources) of torture against children in Israel, Palestine, or anywhere else in the world.
Even though I knew some of this was taking place with these kids, I really didn't realize who and how often until I started to search more about this, since I read the OP's source. There just has to be stronger penalties leveled against those who practices torture against children!! Even if it takes an eye for an eye, whatever it takes to stop this open mind attitude with those who think that toruturing kids is ok to do.
But the problem is that none of the sources anyone has cited here are legitimate, so you're not actually 'bringing attention' to anything.
QUOTE (Sinisterblogger @ Jul 4 2008, 12:42 PM)
But the problem is that none of the sources anyone has cited here are legitimate, so you're not actually 'bringing attention' to anything.
I disagree with you about the sources. I feel that the OP does bring attention to what's going on in those areas, at least in this message board. Without trying to do so, it's also drawn attention to your disconcern for what the OP is truly about.
QUOTE (QBC @ Jul 4 2008, 12:35 PM)
If your really are as independant as you claim, maybe you could balance your posting with some links to Hamas attrocities.
If one were to start a thread that includes all torture all over the world as a study, then that would be something either you may wish to do, or possibly I, if I feel to go that far with such an topic.
I found a headline. It disgust me and I posted a thread about it. Going by your weak argument, we could accuse many other threads of a message board to be one sided in it's report. You have found it more important to defend the actions by some of the IDF here in this thread by saying that such reports are false. That's your right to be both ignorant to what really goes on and also to be here to trying to turn discussion into a one sided affair.
My views here are independent and by my saying that ALL sides who commits such acts against children should be punished and punished hard!!!! Whatever the Hamas commits against children, my feelings about this goes the same. There's no room or place for this sort of activity against children no matter where they live.
I suggest that when you are able to face real life facts in that soldiers of the IDF also commit such acts, that you should then return to post favorably in support of this OP.
For those who are strong supporters of the Zionist, I suggest that you read this piece by Tony Karon who speaks from a once Zionist heart (as I understand it) who also finds his own people being turned off by hard line Zionists who promote their own agendas against the left and their own people.
I would not think that Tony Karon would have any problem with this thread's purpose and the report used in the OP.
http://www.alternet.org/story/62618/
For American Jews, Dissent Against Israel Has Become Mainstream
By Tony Karon, Tomdispatch.com. Posted September 15, 2007.
The exceedingly narrow range of "correct opinion" on Israel for American Jews isn't holding together like it used to. Is a Jewish glasnost coming to America?
First, a confession: It may tell me that I hate myself, but I can't help loving Masada2000, the website maintained by militant right-wing Zionist followers of Rabbi Meir Kahane. The reason I love it is its D.I.R.T. list -- that's "Dense anti-Israel Repugnant Traitors" (also published as the S.H.I.T. list of "Self-Hating and Israel-Threatening" Jews). And that's not because I get a bigger entry than -- staying in the Ks -- Henry Kissinger, Michael Kinsley, Naomi Klein, or Ted Koppel. The Kahanists are a pretty flaky lot, counting everyone from Woody Allen to present Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on their list of Jewish traitors. But the habit of branding Jewish dissidents -- those of us who reject the nationalist notion that as Jews, our fate is tied to that of Israel, or the idea that our people's historic suffering somehow exempts Israel from moral reproach for its abuses against others -- as "self-haters" is not unfamiliar to me.
Having been an active left-Zionist in my teenage years, I had, however, retained an interest in the Middle East -- and, of course, we all knew that Israel was the South African white apartheid regime's most important ally, arming its security forces in defiance of a UN arms embargo. Even back then, the connection between the circumstances of black people under apartheid, and those of Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, seemed obvious enough to me and to many other Jews in the South African liberation movement: Both were peoples harshly ruled over by a state that denied them the rights of citizenship.
Still, this was a first. I could recite the kiddush from memory, sing old kibbutznik anthems and curse in Yiddish. I had been called a "bloody Jew" many times, but never an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. What quickly became clear to me, though, was the purpose of that "self-hating" smear -- to marginalize Jews who dissent from Zionism, the nationalist ideology of Jewish statehood, in order to warn others off expressing similar views.
The Kahanists are a fringe movement, but their self-defeating list may nonetheless be a metaphor for the coming crisis in more mainstream nationalist efforts to police Jewish identity. The Zionist establishment has had remarkable success over the past half-century in convincing others that Israel and its supporters speak for, and represent, "the Jews." The value to their cause of making Israel indistinguishable from Jews at large is that it becomes a lot easier to shield Israel from reproach. It suggests, in the most emphatic terms, that serious criticism of Israel amounts to criticism of Jews. More than a millennium of violent Christian persecution of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust, has made many in the West rightly sensitive towards any claims of anti-Semitism, a sensitivity many Zionists like to exploit to gain a carte blanche exemption from criticism for a state they claim to be the very personification of Jewishness.
So, despite Israel's ongoing dispossession and oppression of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, then-Harvard president Larry Summers evidently had no trouble saying, in 2002, that harsh criticisms of Israel are "anti-Semitic in their effect if not in their intent."
I would not think that Tony Karon would have any problem with this thread's purpose and the report used in the OP.
http://www.alternet.org/story/62618/
For American Jews, Dissent Against Israel Has Become Mainstream
By Tony Karon, Tomdispatch.com. Posted September 15, 2007.
The exceedingly narrow range of "correct opinion" on Israel for American Jews isn't holding together like it used to. Is a Jewish glasnost coming to America?
First, a confession: It may tell me that I hate myself, but I can't help loving Masada2000, the website maintained by militant right-wing Zionist followers of Rabbi Meir Kahane. The reason I love it is its D.I.R.T. list -- that's "Dense anti-Israel Repugnant Traitors" (also published as the S.H.I.T. list of "Self-Hating and Israel-Threatening" Jews). And that's not because I get a bigger entry than -- staying in the Ks -- Henry Kissinger, Michael Kinsley, Naomi Klein, or Ted Koppel. The Kahanists are a pretty flaky lot, counting everyone from Woody Allen to present Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on their list of Jewish traitors. But the habit of branding Jewish dissidents -- those of us who reject the nationalist notion that as Jews, our fate is tied to that of Israel, or the idea that our people's historic suffering somehow exempts Israel from moral reproach for its abuses against others -- as "self-haters" is not unfamiliar to me.
Having been an active left-Zionist in my teenage years, I had, however, retained an interest in the Middle East -- and, of course, we all knew that Israel was the South African white apartheid regime's most important ally, arming its security forces in defiance of a UN arms embargo. Even back then, the connection between the circumstances of black people under apartheid, and those of Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, seemed obvious enough to me and to many other Jews in the South African liberation movement: Both were peoples harshly ruled over by a state that denied them the rights of citizenship.
Still, this was a first. I could recite the kiddush from memory, sing old kibbutznik anthems and curse in Yiddish. I had been called a "bloody Jew" many times, but never an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. What quickly became clear to me, though, was the purpose of that "self-hating" smear -- to marginalize Jews who dissent from Zionism, the nationalist ideology of Jewish statehood, in order to warn others off expressing similar views.
The Kahanists are a fringe movement, but their self-defeating list may nonetheless be a metaphor for the coming crisis in more mainstream nationalist efforts to police Jewish identity. The Zionist establishment has had remarkable success over the past half-century in convincing others that Israel and its supporters speak for, and represent, "the Jews." The value to their cause of making Israel indistinguishable from Jews at large is that it becomes a lot easier to shield Israel from reproach. It suggests, in the most emphatic terms, that serious criticism of Israel amounts to criticism of Jews. More than a millennium of violent Christian persecution of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust, has made many in the West rightly sensitive towards any claims of anti-Semitism, a sensitivity many Zionists like to exploit to gain a carte blanche exemption from criticism for a state they claim to be the very personification of Jewishness.
So, despite Israel's ongoing dispossession and oppression of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, then-Harvard president Larry Summers evidently had no trouble saying, in 2002, that harsh criticisms of Israel are "anti-Semitic in their effect if not in their intent."
The meanest people of the face of the earth. Some U.S. police officers (Atlanta, Houston, etc) went to Israel to learn "anti-terrorism" tactics from them. Now we know how to run over children with tanks, too. Remember when some of the Israeli Air Force quit, refusing to continue to follow the atrocious orders they were being given?
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 4 2008, 01:11 PM)
If one were to start a thread that includes all torture all over the world as a study, then that would be something either you may wish to do, or possibly I, if I feel to go that far with such an topic.
I found a headline. It disgust me and I posted a thread about it. Going by your weak argument, we could accuse many other threads of a message board to be one sided in it's report.
You have found it more important to defend the actions by some of the IDF here in this thread by saying that such reports are false. That's your right to be both ignorant to what really goes on and also to be here to trying to turn discussion into a one sided affair.
My views here are independent and by my saying that ALL sides who commits such acts against children should be punished and punished hard!!!! Whatever the Hamas commits against children, my feelings about this goes the same. There's no room or place for this sort of activity against children no matter where they live.
I suggest that when you are able to face real life facts in that soldiers of the IDF also commit such acts, that you should then return to post favorably in support of this OP.
I found a headline. It disgust me and I posted a thread about it. Going by your weak argument, we could accuse many other threads of a message board to be one sided in it's report.
You have found it more important to defend the actions by some of the IDF here in this thread by saying that such reports are false. That's your right to be both ignorant to what really goes on and also to be here to trying to turn discussion into a one sided affair.
My views here are independent and by my saying that ALL sides who commits such acts against children should be punished and punished hard!!!! Whatever the Hamas commits against children, my feelings about this goes the same. There's no room or place for this sort of activity against children no matter where they live.
I suggest that when you are able to face real life facts in that soldiers of the IDF also commit such acts, that you should then return to post favorably in support of this OP.
One big difference. The authors of most threads make it very clear from the beginning where they stand on the topic they present. When there are links presented, the material is pretty much mainstream. What we are then left with are the author's opinions regarding the material being presented. Sometimes I disagree with the author's opinion or interpretation of the material and I might decide to weigh in. Other times I might agree with the author and might or might not acknowledge my support. Then there are a bunch of threads that I have no interest in the subject matter.
In the case of your thread, you are presenting source material that is not in the mainstream and that has a decided Palestinian slant. You first make a quick one sentance claim that you have a balanced objective view of the subject matter and then proceed to contradict your claim by presenting the palestinan viewpoint. I'm not trying to prevent you from taking that position, I'm simply calling you on your claim to have a balanced viewpoint when nothing you have done thus far would support that claim.
In terms of the palestian position on child torture, it looks to me like they are trying to make a case that this is standard IDF operating procedure. They offer no proof what-so-ever that is the case. You also have presented only links that have their origins with the DCI-PAL viewpoint. For that reason, I don't find your arguments to be credible.
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 4 2008, 01:27 PM)
I would not think that Tony Karon would have any problem with this thread's purpose and the report used in the OP.
Well that depends.
I might be completely wrong, but based on the links you have provided, my understanding of the premise of your thread is that the IDF has a policy that condones the torture of children and that torture of children is common practice in the IDF. If that is the premise of your thread, then I think Tony Karon would have a problem with your thread's purpose.
If, on the other hand, I have it completely wrong and you are instead portraying the torture mentioned in the the title of your thread as an isolated incident, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.
QUOTE (QBC @ Jul 4 2008, 03:55 PM)
you are presenting source material that is not in the mainstream and that has a decided Palestinian slant.
Do you realize how much 'material' that doesn't reach the mainstream??? Do you realize how much real life happenings are filtered out of our mainstream reporting????? The biggest propaganda sources today comes from the US and Israel. They block so much information out of our mainstream that it's really not funny.
QUOTE
You first make a quick one sentance claim that you have a balanced objective view of the subject matter and then proceed to contradict your claim by presenting the palestinan viewpoint.
Yes, my initial point of view is outrage!!!! As it should be!!!!! There's enough out there that supports such acts being committed, so this is no fluke that it's back in some reporting agencies. If I had written the fact that I was supporting the Palestinian viewpoint in the OP, of which I wasn't, then you'd have some argument to your baseless claim here. Truth is, I was giving my balanced opinion about the incident(s). I've furthered my postings about what's been found very similiar to these incidents that now appears to take on a Palestinian flavor, only because a few, like yourself has tried to deny and or debunk the fact that Israeli troops has anything to do with such disgusting acts.
QUOTE
I'm not trying to prevent you from taking that position, I'm simply calling you on your claim to have a balanced viewpoint when nothing you have done thus far would support that claim.
If you wish to support your claims about what others do, then I suggest you start a thread that presents that. If we go into other areas of the world to present that here in this thread, then we'll be basically off topic.
QUOTE
In terms of the palestian position on child torture, it looks to me like they are trying to make a case that this is standard IDF operating procedure. They offer no proof what-so-ever that is the case. You also have presented only links that have their origins with the DCI-PAL viewpoint. For that reason, I don't find your arguments to be credible.
I'm not really saying that this is SOP of the IDF, but it certainly appears to be something that may have become accepted practice among some IDF soldiers much like how sometimes our US troops commit atrocities against civilians and children in war zones that we're participating in. I at least admit that and accept the fact that it goes on, unlike others who wish to deny or protect those acts exposed for whatever purposes that serves their agenda for such.
QUOTE (QBC @ Jul 4 2008, 04:14 PM)
Well that depends.
I might be completely wrong, but based on the links you have provided, my understanding of the premise of your thread is that the IDF has a policy that condones the torture of children and that torture of children is common practice in the IDF. If that is the premise of your thread, then I think Tony Karon would have a problem with your thread's purpose.
If, on the other hand, I have it completely wrong and you are instead portraying the torture mentioned in the the title of your thread as an isolated incident, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.
I might be completely wrong, but based on the links you have provided, my understanding of the premise of your thread is that the IDF has a policy that condones the torture of children and that torture of children is common practice in the IDF. If that is the premise of your thread, then I think Tony Karon would have a problem with your thread's purpose.
If, on the other hand, I have it completely wrong and you are instead portraying the torture mentioned in the the title of your thread as an isolated incident, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.
The links provided have supported years of some in the IDF who have carried forth this practice of child torture that is even backed by their courts as it appears. Again, as I have stated, I can't say that it's SOP in the IDF to perform child torture or not, but I would not think that it would be included in their military regulations. I have no way of knowing what truly exists in the policy books of the IDF. Would you?
As to how I interpreted Karon's piece to mean was the way Zionists trys to maniplute others into feeling guilty about questioning the acts of some Israelis, especially Zionists. To a point that even Ameri Jews are not happy with the actions of Zionists. I would think that many Israeli people not being too happy about Zionists also. I have read some time ago that 70% of the Israeli population are against Israel's offensive aggression against others. I would be included in that 70% catagory for how Israel's gov makes offensive acts against others. So, I think Mr Karon would be understanding of my thread and against those who try to deny or protect these acts of torture that sometimes leak out into the press.
QUOTE (QBC @ Jul 4 2008, 04:14 PM)
then I think Tony Karon would have a problem with your thread's purpose.
I found this snip in another piece that helps lend to Karon's possible position, if he were to read this thread. Sources may be questioned, but there's enough out there to suggest that there's something very wrong in how the IDF and other soldiers of other countries uses kids to their advantages and as outlets for their sick pleasures.
QUOTE
But today, the face of the Israeli soldier represents something different to the world. When they invade neighborhoods with tanks and infantry, their soldiers know where to go to “stay safe.” Where is that? Tony Karon, of Time magazine wrote of Israeli soldiers using children as a shield. Karon reported, “A PR disaster followed reports of [Palestinian] children huddling frightened in a Lutheran orphanage while Israeli soldiers took up firing positions in their building.
QUOTE (RealLiberal1 @ Jul 3 2008, 08:33 PM)
I would wager that some American soldiers in Iraq have also tortured 10 year olds.
Under orders from the CIA which probably learned a few techniques from the Israel mossad.
Are the Palestinian women and children in Israeli prisons exposed to treatment prohibited by international conventions and the UN Convention against Torture?
Torture methods
Children under 18 Women
1. physical beating 74% 44%
2. “shaking”1 36% 15%
3. suspension 70% 48%
5. segregation 71% 73%
14enforced nakedness 59% 47%
15. sexual harassment
and threats of rape 17% 36%
For more information visit: http://www.humanrightsmarch.dk/
Torture methods
Children under 18 Women
1. physical beating 74% 44%
2. “shaking”1 36% 15%
3. suspension 70% 48%
5. segregation 71% 73%
14enforced nakedness 59% 47%
15. sexual harassment
and threats of rape 17% 36%
For more information visit: http://www.humanrightsmarch.dk/
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 4 2008, 03:30 PM)
I'm not really saying that this is SOP of the IDF, but it certainly appears to be something that may have become accepted practice among some IDF soldiers much like how sometimes our US troops commit atrocities against civilians and children in war zones that we're participating in. I at least admit that and accept the fact that it goes on, unlike others who wish to deny or protect those acts exposed for whatever purposes that serves their agenda for such.
Again you are contradicting yourself.
If the practice was accepted amongst some IDF soldiers and these soldiers were not being sought out and punished, that would mean the IDF was complicit and accepted the practice. Same for the U.S. troops.
Based on your come back, it sounds like I had you pegged correctly, but I had to be certain.
QUOTE (QBC @ Jul 4 2008, 05:28 PM)
Again you are contradicting yourself.
If the practice was accepted amongst some IDF soldiers and these soldiers were not being sought out and punished, that would mean the IDF was complicit and accepted the practice. Same for the U.S. troops.
Based on your come back, it sounds like I had you pegged correctly, but I had to be certain.
If the practice was accepted amongst some IDF soldiers and these soldiers were not being sought out and punished, that would mean the IDF was complicit and accepted the practice. Same for the U.S. troops.
Based on your come back, it sounds like I had you pegged correctly, but I had to be certain.
I suppose you are one who thinks that all uniformed personnel who commits illegal acts are promptly handled by their superiors. It's been known for as long as groups have ruled over others that those in such groups tends to take care of their own when one or more are found to be in the wrong and being exposed for it. I would think or say that sometimes, even the IDF superiors punish those who are found to have committed such wrong acts, especially when it reaches the public's eyes..... but for the most part, they tend to cover it all up the best that they can, IMHO.
Overall, your words rings empty here. I've provided fair reasoning in which you purposely refuse to understand from which I see as your own agenda to bolster and protect Zionist ways. That doesn't bother me who or what you are in your personal support, but to present yourself here as being somehow one who is able to defend the IDF for their actions is simply laughable. It would be like I could defend the actions of many US troops, and I know much better not to even try it.
The main concern that has been preented in this thread is the fact that children are being tortured. In this case of this OP, it's the IDF committing such heinous crimes/acts against mankind, mainly the children. I'l not ever be ashamed to expose what the IDF or other military units who commits such acts. Never!!!
QUOTE (QBC @ Jul 4 2008, 05:28 PM)
Again you are contradicting yourself.
If the practice was accepted amongst some IDF soldiers and these soldiers were not being sought out and punished, that would mean the IDF was complicit and accepted the practice. Same for the U.S. troops.
Based on your come back, it sounds like I had you pegged correctly, but I had to be certain.
If the practice was accepted amongst some IDF soldiers and these soldiers were not being sought out and punished, that would mean the IDF was complicit and accepted the practice. Same for the U.S. troops.
Based on your come back, it sounds like I had you pegged correctly, but I had to be certain.
I suppose you are one who thinks that all uniformed personnel who commits illegal acts are promptly handled by their superiors. It's been known for as long as groups have ruled over others that those in such groups tends to take care of their own when one or more are found to be in the wrong and being exposed for it. I would think or say that sometimes, even the IDF superiors punish those who are found to have committed such wrong acts, especially when it reaches the public's eyes..... but for the most part, they tend to cover it all up the best that they can, IMHO.
Overall, your words rings empty here. I've provided fair reasoning in which you purposely refuse to understand from which I see as your own agenda to bolster and protect Zionist ways. That doesn't bother me who or what you are in your personal support, but to present yourself here as being somehow one who is able to defend the IDF for their actions is simply laughable. It would be like I could defend the actions of many US troops, and I know much better not to even try it.
The main concern that has been preented in this thread is the fact that children are being tortured. In this case of this OP, it's the IDF committing such heinous crimes/acts against mankind, mainly the children. I'l not ever be ashamed to expose what the IDF or other military units who commits such acts. Never!!!
QUOTE (fla1sun @ Jul 4 2008, 02:56 PM)
The meanest people of the face of the earth. Some U.S. police officers (Atlanta, Houston, etc) went to Israel to learn "anti-terrorism" tactics from them. Now we know how to run over children with tanks, too. Remember when some of the Israeli Air Force quit, refusing to continue to follow the atrocious orders they were being given?
I didn't know that about the Israeli Air Force doing this. I hope to find something in print about it.
I have found this in which is as bothersome just as what takes place in and near the Gaza. In Iraq.
QUOTE
Along with the rebirth of the infamous Phoenix Program, the US occupation forces have also been employing similar Israeli (IDF) tactics in Iraq since the occupation began. It has been reported (in the foreign press) that US troops have tied up children on hummers when entering a hostile area to avoid attacks. The US also uses similar brutal IDF tactics when entering “civilian” homes. There are many IDF “consultants” working with the US occupation forces using skills and methods of terror against Iraqi civilians now commonly used in Gaza. Let’s hope the massive demononstrations scheduled today in the US will turn the tide and force an end to this insane occupation.
This is a crock of bullshit. Typical Arab lies. Of course, if these kids were tortured, the story failed to mention the twelve sticks of dynamite strapped to their bodies and the plastic explosives shoved up their asses.
This is crap and anyone who believes it wants to believe it because they probably hate jews.
End of friggin story.
Shalom. Salaam.
This is crap and anyone who believes it wants to believe it because they probably hate jews.
End of friggin story.
Shalom. Salaam.
QUOTE (AboutBreath @ Jul 4 2008, 11:27 AM)
For those who are strong supporters of the Zionist, I suggest that you read this piece by Tony Karon who speaks from a once Zionist heart (as I understand it) who also finds his own people being turned off by hard line Zionists who promote their own agendas against the left and their own people.
I would not think that Tony Karon would have any problem with this thread's purpose and the report used in the OP.
http://www.alternet.org/story/62618/
For American Jews, Dissent Against Israel Has Become Mainstream
By Tony Karon, Tomdispatch.com. Posted September 15, 2007.
The exceedingly narrow range of "correct opinion" on Israel for American Jews isn't holding together like it used to. Is a Jewish glasnost coming to America?
First, a confession: It may tell me that I hate myself, but I can't help loving Masada2000, the website maintained by militant right-wing Zionist followers of Rabbi Meir Kahane. The reason I love it is its D.I.R.T. list -- that's "Dense anti-Israel Repugnant Traitors" (also published as the S.H.I.T. list of "Self-Hating and Israel-Threatening" Jews). And that's not because I get a bigger entry than -- staying in the Ks -- Henry Kissinger, Michael Kinsley, Naomi Klein, or Ted Koppel. The Kahanists are a pretty flaky lot, counting everyone from Woody Allen to present Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on their list of Jewish traitors. But the habit of branding Jewish dissidents -- those of us who reject the nationalist notion that as Jews, our fate is tied to that of Israel, or the idea that our people's historic suffering somehow exempts Israel from moral reproach for its abuses against others -- as "self-haters" is not unfamiliar to me.
Having been an active left-Zionist in my teenage years, I had, however, retained an interest in the Middle East -- and, of course, we all knew that Israel was the South African white apartheid regime's most important ally, arming its security forces in defiance of a UN arms embargo. Even back then, the connection between the circumstances of black people under apartheid, and those of Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, seemed obvious enough to me and to many other Jews in the South African liberation movement: Both were peoples harshly ruled over by a state that denied them the rights of citizenship.
Still, this was a first. I could recite the kiddush from memory, sing old kibbutznik anthems and curse in Yiddish. I had been called a "bloody Jew" many times, but never an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. What quickly became clear to me, though, was the purpose of that "self-hating" smear -- to marginalize Jews who dissent from Zionism, the nationalist ideology of Jewish statehood, in order to warn others off expressing similar views.
The Kahanists are a fringe movement, but their self-defeating list may nonetheless be a metaphor for the coming crisis in more mainstream nationalist efforts to police Jewish identity. The Zionist establishment has had remarkable success over the past half-century in convincing others that Israel and its supporters speak for, and represent, "the Jews." The value to their cause of making Israel indistinguishable from Jews at large is that it becomes a lot easier to shield Israel from reproach. It suggests, in the most emphatic terms, that serious criticism of Israel amounts to criticism of Jews. More than a millennium of violent Christian persecution of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust, has made many in the West rightly sensitive towards any claims of anti-Semitism, a sensitivity many Zionists like to exploit to gain a carte blanche exemption from criticism for a state they claim to be the very personification of Jewishness.
So, despite Israel's ongoing dispossession and oppression of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, then-Harvard president Larry Summers evidently had no trouble saying, in 2002, that harsh criticisms of Israel are "anti-Semitic in their effect if not in their intent."
I would not think that Tony Karon would have any problem with this thread's purpose and the report used in the OP.
http://www.alternet.org/story/62618/
For American Jews, Dissent Against Israel Has Become Mainstream
By Tony Karon, Tomdispatch.com. Posted September 15, 2007.
The exceedingly narrow range of "correct opinion" on Israel for American Jews isn't holding together like it used to. Is a Jewish glasnost coming to America?
First, a confession: It may tell me that I hate myself, but I can't help loving Masada2000, the website maintained by militant right-wing Zionist followers of Rabbi Meir Kahane. The reason I love it is its D.I.R.T. list -- that's "Dense anti-Israel Repugnant Traitors" (also published as the S.H.I.T. list of "Self-Hating and Israel-Threatening" Jews). And that's not because I get a bigger entry than -- staying in the Ks -- Henry Kissinger, Michael Kinsley, Naomi Klein, or Ted Koppel. The Kahanists are a pretty flaky lot, counting everyone from Woody Allen to present Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on their list of Jewish traitors. But the habit of branding Jewish dissidents -- those of us who reject the nationalist notion that as Jews, our fate is tied to that of Israel, or the idea that our people's historic suffering somehow exempts Israel from moral reproach for its abuses against others -- as "self-haters" is not unfamiliar to me.
Having been an active left-Zionist in my teenage years, I had, however, retained an interest in the Middle East -- and, of course, we all knew that Israel was the South African white apartheid regime's most important ally, arming its security forces in defiance of a UN arms embargo. Even back then, the connection between the circumstances of black people under apartheid, and those of Palestinians under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, seemed obvious enough to me and to many other Jews in the South African liberation movement: Both were peoples harshly ruled over by a state that denied them the rights of citizenship.
Still, this was a first. I could recite the kiddush from memory, sing old kibbutznik anthems and curse in Yiddish. I had been called a "bloody Jew" many times, but never an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. What quickly became clear to me, though, was the purpose of that "self-hating" smear -- to marginalize Jews who dissent from Zionism, the nationalist ideology of Jewish statehood, in order to warn others off expressing similar views.
The Kahanists are a fringe movement, but their self-defeating list may nonetheless be a metaphor for the coming crisis in more mainstream nationalist efforts to police Jewish identity. The Zionist establishment has had remarkable success over the past half-century in convincing others that Israel and its supporters speak for, and represent, "the Jews." The value to their cause of making Israel indistinguishable from Jews at large is that it becomes a lot easier to shield Israel from reproach. It suggests, in the most emphatic terms, that serious criticism of Israel amounts to criticism of Jews. More than a millennium of violent Christian persecution of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust, has made many in the West rightly sensitive towards any claims of anti-Semitism, a sensitivity many Zionists like to exploit to gain a carte blanche exemption from criticism for a state they claim to be the very personification of Jewishness.
So, despite Israel's ongoing dispossession and oppression of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, then-Harvard president Larry Summers evidently had no trouble saying, in 2002, that harsh criticisms of Israel are "anti-Semitic in their effect if not in their intent."
I came across your picture
but I am not sure which one is you.
I am appalled that someone on this message board still refuses to believe that children are tortured in this world. We have been reading about it and hearing about it for some time. I am equally appalled that the first response, the knee-jerk response, of some is that the source is bad. What you should be saying is that these reports are shocking and that you want to know more about it. In fact, you should take responsibility for finding out more about it yourself, instead of putting the person offering the information on the defensive. It is becoming a pattern in this country that people choose to close their eyes and demonize those bringing unwelcome information. Isn't that what the Germans had to do to stop themselves from seeing and knowing what was being done in their name?
I am equally grateful for Seeker's response, which is non-partisan but very HUMAN.
Yes, evil goes on in all quarters. It is not just done by a select few whom we may consider enemies. Sometimes it is done by our own or our allies. Increasingly, the evidence is that there are no clean hands on this issue. What we must do as citizens of the human race is to pay heed to the reports of human rights abuses, regardless of who the alleged culprits or victims are. Otherwise, we are all just savages now.
Also, I appreciate Seeker's comment about the soul of Israel. It is also true about the soul of the United States of America and it must stop. We are still civilized people and we require that our leaders and our soldiers act accordingly. Justice will not sleep forever and we all must answer for these war crimes eventually.
I am equally grateful for Seeker's response, which is non-partisan but very HUMAN.
Yes, evil goes on in all quarters. It is not just done by a select few whom we may consider enemies. Sometimes it is done by our own or our allies. Increasingly, the evidence is that there are no clean hands on this issue. What we must do as citizens of the human race is to pay heed to the reports of human rights abuses, regardless of who the alleged culprits or victims are. Otherwise, we are all just savages now.
Also, I appreciate Seeker's comment about the soul of Israel. It is also true about the soul of the United States of America and it must stop. We are still civilized people and we require that our leaders and our soldiers act accordingly. Justice will not sleep forever and we all must answer for these war crimes eventually.
QUOTE (NEM @ Jul 4 2008, 06:22 PM)
This is a crock of bullshit. Typical Arab lies. Of course, if these kids were tortured, the story failed to mention the twelve sticks of dynamite strapped to their bodies and the plastic explosives shoved up their asses.
This is crap and anyone who believes it wants to believe it because they probably hate jews.
End of friggin story.
Shalom. Salaam.
This is crap and anyone who believes it wants to believe it because they probably hate jews.
End of friggin story.
Shalom. Salaam.
Tis your opinion but your lack of knowledge of what truly goes on deeply shows in your first response in this thread. Your response that these are 'typical' Arab lies shows that you probably hate Arabs. I certainly don't hate Jews or Israelis, only those who push their offensive actions against others. That goes likewise for others of any culture who tortures people and especially kids. They are pieces of sh*t!!
For you, it's the end of story, but that's why ignorance flourishes. It's not the end of the story for me, thank you.
QUOTE (NEM @ Jul 4 2008, 06:29 PM)
I came across your picture
but I am not sure which one is you.
but I am not sure which one is you.
I must question your sanity for I have no idea what you are speaking about.
QUOTE (Eyeswideopen @ Jul 4 2008, 06:50 PM)
I am appalled that someone on this message board still refuses to believe that children are tortured in this world.
I am equally grateful for Seeker's response, which is non-partisan but very HUMAN.
Also, I appreciate Seeker's comment about the soul of Israel. It is also true about the soul of the United States of America and it must stop. We are still civilized people and we require that our leaders and our soldiers act accordingly. Justice will not sleep forever and we all must answer for these war crimes eventually.
I am equally grateful for Seeker's response, which is non-partisan but very HUMAN.
Also, I appreciate Seeker's comment about the soul of Israel. It is also true about the soul of the United States of America and it must stop. We are still civilized people and we require that our leaders and our soldiers act accordingly. Justice will not sleep forever and we all must answer for these war crimes eventually.
I agree with your comments. I too appreciate Seeker's comments here. I respect his words as I have before in other threads. Your words here are as supportive. Thank you.
I'm shocked to see that some have found past evidence of such torture and abuse being something non existance. Heck, there's some who torture kids here in the US! This is something that should never be silenced and for those here in this forum who thinks that they can make up whatever they want to silence my feelings about kids being tortured and abused will have a long road to hoe with me.
QUOTE (NEM @ Jul 4 2008, 06:22 PM)
This is a crock of bullshit. Typical Arab lies. Of course, if these kids were tortured, the story failed to mention the twelve sticks of dynamite strapped to their bodies and the plastic explosives shoved up their asses.
This is crap and anyone who believes it wants to believe it because they probably hate jews.
End of friggin story.
Shalom. Salaam.
This is crap and anyone who believes it wants to believe it because they probably hate jews.
End of friggin story.
Shalom. Salaam.
Are you a AIPAC supporter? The only story thats ending is the U.S. story if they let Israel lead them around like a pet goat. Lets hope Obama has Israels number and that is not anti jew or anti semetic. That there is friggin fact. End of story.
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