Who knows who is under those hoods, hell it could be you.
So in your pink eye we should praise Israel or we are all KKK?
Lets get real and face fact.

Either does he

I never claimed that children are not being tortured in the world. One only has to pick up a local newspaper to read about the latest twisted sicko child predator.

What I'm disputing is the contention that IDF and U.S. military routinely torture children as a matter of policy.



Go back and read my response here. You will find that I did do some research and came up empty handed, other than the DCI-PAL connections I mentioned earlier.

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index...amp;#entry64290



I respect Seeker's input as well. He has a lot to offer in any discussion.

So, your only problem is if this is rountinely or not. One then needs to define routinely. Every day? Every other day? Every week? Every other week? Every month? Every year? At which time does it become acceptable or non acceptable that children are tortured and abused?? There's enough print out there that suggests such practices of torture and abuse has been happening for several years, but some seems to say that it's not rountinely. I wonder how many tortured children agrees with that outlook such as you do?

You underlined the wrong words. The words I underlined below are at the center of our dispute.

What I'm disputing is the contention that IDF and U.S. military routinely torture children as a matter of policy.

'Routinely' is very in play here in your words.

Another question. How are you able to personally defend 'matter of policy' for the IDF?? Are you an officer with the IDF and know for a fact that the IDF has no policy whats so ever that lends what they may term as 'interogation' being fair play when it comes to those under 18 years old? The US has very strange ways for interpreting their interogation policies as most has seen by what's been found about US tactics used on prisoners of war or suspects of terrorism.

You've yet to provide any source of information that also negates this thread's OP article. What we have here are more sources that points to such acts being carried out than not. That's plenty enough for me to share high concern for children being subjected to torture, abuse and human shields during wars and conflicts. Soliders who perform these acts are pieces of sh*ts and cowards!!

As has been pointed out by several posters, your sources aren't credible. That's pretty much it in a nutshell. The burden of proof rests with you, as you are making the claim. Provide some credible sources, that don't all point back to the Palestinian based DCI-PAL and then we can have meaningful discussion.

Again, laughable. You've been shooting blanks for the most part and only crying foul because you wish to protect those (some) who are recognized as barbarians on the field or towns among civilians. There's been plenty of sources that supports the IDF's actions or lack thereof in it's prevention of torture and abuses to children for their own attempted selfish pleasures or gains. I'm glad you have the almighty word that rules over everything shown in print. It must be nice to be that 'gifted' while alos blind at the same time.

Please check back soon..... now that you seem to have this assured sense of a 'do no wrong' IDF. I'll see if more printed articles/naterial might change your mind.




http://www.counterpunch.org/sunil1.html

The Israeli military's killing of Palestinian children is not a sometimes accidental by-product of 34 years of occupation. It is in fact a matter of deliberate policy.

In a chilling interview conducted by Ha'aretz correspondent Amira Hass, an IDF sharpshooter admitted it was IDF policy to shoot at children above the age of 12. Here is an excerpt [AH = Hass, IS = Sharpshooter]:

(AH) You haven't shot children.

(IS) "All the sharpshooters haven't shot children."

(AH) But nonetheless there are children who were hit, wounded or killed after they were hit in the head. Unless these were mistakes.

(IS) "If they were children, they were mistakes."

(AH) Do they talk about this?

(IS) "They talk to us about this a lot. They forbid us to shoot at children."

(AH) How do they say this?

(IS) "You don't shoot a child who is 12 or younger."

(AH) That is, a child of 12 or older is allowed?

(IS) "Twelve and up is allowed. He's not a child any more, he's already after his bar mitzvah. Something like that."

(AH) Thirteen is bar mitzvah age.

(IS) "Twelve and up, you're allowed to shoot. That's what they tell us."

(AH) Again: Twelve and up you're allowed to shoot children.

(IS) "Because this already doesn't look to me like a child by definition, even though in the United States a child can be 23."

(AH) Under international law, a child is defined as someone
up to the age of 18.

(IS) "Up until 18 is a child?"

(AH) So, according to the IDF, it is 12?

(IS) "According to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I don't know if this is what the IDF says to the media."

(AH) And children are from 12 down. Is there no order that between 12 and 18 you shoot at the legs and not the head?

(IS) "Of course we try to see to it that he really is over
20."

(AH) In the 10 seconds that you have.

(IS) "In the 10 seconds that I have, I have to estimate how old he is."

(AH) And in what direction the wind is blowing, and the deviation here and there, and which way he'll jump the next moment.

(IS) "Yes, but there are hardly any mistakes by sharpshooters. The mistakes are made by people who aren't sharpshooters."

(AH) And it turns out that they happen to hit the children's heads, and all this is just by chance?

(IS) "If you say you have seen children that have been hit in the head a lot, then it is sharpshooters."

(AH) So what you're saying is that our definition of children is different.

(IS) "Your definition is different."

(AH) Because for you it's someone who is 12.

(IS) "Yes."

(AH) But a child of 13 doesn't bear arms, no matter what you call him, a boy or a teenager or an adult.

(IS) "He isn't holding a gun but a firebomb, and in certain places it is possible also to fire on people who throw firebombs."

["Don't shoot till you can see they're over the age of 12," Ha'aretz, November 20, 2000]

The first part of your article references the tragic incident of 22 November, 2001 where 5 Palestinian children were killed when one of them tripped over an unexploded tank shell. I've supplied two credible sources below that report on the tragic incident.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...mp;pagewanted=2

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/22/israel1

The reporting of this incident in your link bears no relation to what actually took place.

In terms of the interview, no where does the author attempt to establish the credibility of [IS], who is a supposed IDF sharpshooter. The content of your linked material, including the interview, reads like it was written by a high school student.

I see no need for you to continue to provide me with more links in an attempt to convince me of the validity of your position, as my opinion is not going to change.

Policy that you hear about and policy that really happens are two different worlds. You look at the jade glass side when there is plenty of broken glass that is not meant for the world to see.
You ever hear of SOG. Again, the U.S. is not above this practice and Israel has a proven track record of this sort of thing.
Mossad, Metsada, LAP, are people one wouldn't invite over for a BBQ.

I like Tony Karon but unfortunately he does not seem to leave much room in between being a Kahanist, which I am not, and being a militant anti-Zionist, which I am not, either.

I believe he oversimplifies what the relationship between Israel and South Africa was in the 1980s and let me point out, if Israel was a racist state, it would not have maintained relations with black-governed South Africa -- which it has done; and continues to be on good relations with many African nations.

Like I said, I often find my viewpoint unrepresented; anti-Likudist but pro-Labor Zionist; I think J Street is the organization that best represents my POV, not AIPAC.

Yeah I wass a bit surprised to read that -more false dilemmas.

Am I going to have to start another "What's a Zionist" thread again?

Or a Rabbi could.........

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/index.cfm
A Website for Seekers of Truth


Shezzz! Profit off the war, profit off the rebuilding
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/cur...icle.cfm?id=140
True Torah Jews comment on Haredi Businessmen Invest Billions in Israeli Real Estate article

Yeah, I already know about them. But there seem to be at least 85 definitions of "Zionism". Assumed terms bother me.

Once again, somebody discovers Neturei Karta. Amazing. This is periodic.

I am aware of them and their POV. If you think they represent progressive Judaism, you might be curious about their views on women.

They are a small number of people who follow a guy named the Satmar Rebbe whose main problem with Zionism was that Theodor Herzl was a secularist and Labor Zionism was insufficiently theocratic.

Essentially, they refuse to accept the state of Israel, because it's not a theocracy and has no right to exist until the Messiah comes and creates a theocratic state.

Their other problem with it is that it gives men and women equal rights, including to serve in the army together, which they oppose.

I'm a person who rejects Biblical Zionism, because I personally reject the Bible, and there is also a nasty history of Christian philosemitism using the Bible. But these cats are theocrats, relying more on the Bible than any Biblical Zionist I've ever seen.

The interview in which you describe as being written by a high schooler was an article covered by Ha'aretz, an Israeli news agency.

Your argument remains lacking, because if I was trying to derail this conversation into a different event, I would have posted the original event of that article from it's beginning. What I was posting showed the 'mentality' of the soldiers back in 2001. They were shooting at 12 year olds!! They displayed some celebration when they did. It was mentioned as policy to do so. I showed you what was discussed as being accepted policy and also the relaxed comfort some soldiers took in killing children. Again, the interview covered by Ha'aretz. Not any Palestinian press. Again, you only come back with your weak defense for your words.

I know that your opinion and some others will not change. I'm not here to change something that's already one's own natural stripes. It simply helps to know who here has very little problem with a country of soldiers who torture, abuse and kill children. In this case it's Israel. In other cases it's other countries. You words here in this thread speaks volumes. But, as I've stated before, it's also your opinion and you have that right to it.

I thought that Karon stated for the most part that Israel had/has good relations with S Africa in his article.






I too think J Street would be the perfect representative for Israel. AIPAC must go! I doubt that it will happen.

Yes, but his implication is that they maintained relations with South Africa in the 1980s because Israel supported apartheid racism.

If that were true, Israel would not have maintained relations with South Africa, after the end of apartheid in 1994.

Here is an interesting profile of Amira Hass who conduted the supposed sharpshooter interview. She identifies closely with the Palestinian cause and is thus not a credible independant observer.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45...of_the_Ring.asp

I've also included a link profiling Ha'aretz.

"Indeed, a look at such sites and the content of the Ha'aretz articles posted suggests that Ha'aretz writers are in the vanguard of those making the Palestinian case against Israel."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/343






What you fail to realize is that your opinion does not translate to fact. Just because you believe Israel has a policy of abuse and torture of children doesn't make it so. In terms of my words, they don't speak volumes at all. My words are nothing but a disagreement with your opinion. You are attempting to make the case that since I don't agree with your opinion then I must condone the torture of children, which is not the case at all.

It is your belief that anyone who writes articles that exposes any actions of the Israelis that goes against your positive presentations of Israel, are slanted towards the Palestinians. I'm sure there are writers who do that, just as there are writers who slant towards Israel, but in this case in this thread, I've found many reasons to believe that this OP's article stands to be more true than not. You are unable to accept that in which I understand.

I pride myself not allowing my US patriotism to blind myself from US propaganda and cover-ups of what our US military personnel or gov officials do that is wrong and most of all, disgusting. The US have committed atrocities in conflicts and wars just as Israel does. Even against children!! Women and children!! I'll not be blind to that.








We have come to that agreement already in that you and I will not agree on this matter. I've presented more than my opinons. I've presented articles and writtings supportive of child torture and abuse. It's up to the readers to make their own judgement. I know I now will dig a little deeper to see just how much and how long this has existed.

What speaks volumes in itself here is the fact that you and few others found it more important to protect IDF's image rather than immediately being appauld by such actions to children. That's what I noticed more than anything early on in this thread. The lack of compassion and concern for children has been noticed early in this thread. It was more about defending Israel than the children. I'll tell you this right now. I'll instantly be more appauled about the children than defending the US and it's policies if and when it's the US who commits such crimes.

A disagreement with your unsubstantiated opinion has nothing to do with anyones lack of compassion for the Palestinian children.


You are still stuck in the mode that your opinions regarding IDF behavior constitute fact. From within that frame of reference, you are assuming anyone who doesn't immediately condemn the IDF for something you so fervantly believe is taking place, condones a behavior that has not even been proven to exist.

If the behavior you suggest is proven to be taking place, then I - along with the rest of the world will be appropriately appauled.


This has nothing to do with compassion and everything to do with whether or not we believe the IDF is systematically torturing Palestinian Children. Thus far you have provided nothing but Palestinian sourced material to support your argument. Given the current climate of hostility between the Palestinians and Israel, why would anyone consider Palestinian accusations to be credible without independant verification. Provide some independant verification and let's see where it leads.

A slight review of the protection of IDF and law enforcement activities in recent history.


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/1.htm#_ftnref8



Between September 29, 2000, and November 30, 2004, more than 1600 Palestinian civilians not involved in hostilities, including at least 500 children, were killed by Israeli security forces, and thousands more were seriously injured.8 The IDF informed Human Rights Watch that as of May 10, 2004, it had criminally investigated just seventy-four alleged cases of unlawful use of lethal force, less than 5 percent of the civilian deaths in nearly four years of what is commonly known as the al-Aqsa intifada, or uprising.9 As of June 6, 2005, the IDF had not responded to a February 2005 request for updated information on indictments and convictions since its May 2004 communication.10


At the heart of the problem is a system that relies on soldiers’ own accounts as the threshold for determining whether serious investigation is warranted. Instead of initiating impartial investigations in such cases, the IDF relies on operational de-briefings, which Israeli officials have misleadingly referred to as “operational investigations,” “field investigations,” or “military investigations.” The frequent discrepancies between IDF accounts of civilian deaths and injuries, on the one hand, and video, medical, and eyewitness evidence on the other hand, is the result in part of the IDF’s practice of asking soldiers to “investigate” other soldiers from the same unit or command, without seeking and weighing testimony of external witnesses. Exculpatory claims of soldiers are taken at face value, at best delaying and at worst foreclosing a prompt and impartial investigation worthy of the name. So-called “operational investigations” may serve a useful military purpose, but they do not constitute proper investigations: they are wholly inadequate to determine whether there is evidence of a violation of human rights or humanitarian law, and they serve as a pretext for maintaining, incorrectly, that an investigation has taken place. Another critical weakness of this current system is the absence of victim involvement in the investigative process, and the demonstrated failure of the IDF to solicit or take seriously testimonies of victims or non-IDF witnesses as a basis for checking the reliability of soldiers’ accounts.

This critique of the system and its flaws is nothing new. Different aspects of Israeli security forces’ impunity in the Occupied Palestinian Territories have been aired in commissions and court cases, newspaper articles, and Knesset meetings for more than twenty years. Investigators rarely consult Palestinian witnesses, even though human rights groups and victims’ families frequently present the Judge Advocate General’s (JAG) office with directly relevant testimony from these witnesses. In the rare instances in which investigators recommended prosecution, the victims have tended to have foreign connections capable of producing external political pressure. The trial of the soldier who shot and killed Tom Hurndall, ongoing as of early June 2005, is a case in point (see below). When investigations do occur, deaths and injuries to Palestinians are treated less seriously than other infractions or violations, and differently from cases where those harmed by the IDF are Jewish Israelis.13

What is new is the mounting number of deaths and injuries of civilians that should, but do not, receive the serious investigation they deserve. All civilian deaths and injuries in the 1988-93 Palestinian uprising were investigated, although the quality of the investigations was often poor.14 Following the outbreak of clashes in late September 2000, the IDF changed this policy, saying that deaths of civilians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories would no longer be routinely investigated because the situation was “approaching armed conflict” and that investigations would be limited to “exceptional cases.” The IDF’s explanation fails to take into account its obligation to investigate deaths and serious injuries of civilians where there is prima facie evidence or there are credible allegations of serious violations of international humanitarian law, or where deaths occur when lethal force is used in law enforcement rather than armed conflict circumstances.

Still gathering wirtten pieces about the mentality of the IDF and their policies. Reading this stuff truly opens one's eyes.

Still gathering wirtten pieces about the mentality of the IDF and their policies. Reading this stuff truly opens one's eyes.

Anyone who tries to defend these actions by the IDF in it's past history or currently, are either completely and purposely ignorant or simply unconscionable to what's going on around them. I do recognize the fact that some soldiers in the IDF have come forward to explain these actions that have been attempted to be covered up. Even those few officers who allows soldiers to speak. For them (few) I am so very grateful. I hope to find more reports by such soldiers soon.

We can debate the item you presented in post #73, and I will put a response together for you.

However, without links to the sources for posts #75 and #76 we can have no debate.

Why bother? You discount all links and sources that doesn't agree with your Israel slant. Your stance on the subject is clear. Others will gather in the material presented in this thread and decide for themselves what's going on in the Middle East, and in particular, the IDF who abuses/torture/kill children.

I also wish to add in fairness to the readers here that Joe Vialls is anti Zionist who hails from Australia, who is obviously upset with the actions carried out by the IDF against civilians and children. His views are more heavyhanded than mine, but there's still a story existing in what he reports.


http://www.vialls.com/archives/bastards1.html

(the author Joe Vialls, is an independent investigator with thirty years direct experience of international military and oilfield operations)

Those readers who continue to insist that Jews in Palestine are seriously interested in peace, and "acting in self defence", should take time to read the long article below by Lamis Andoni and Sandy Tolan of The Village Voice. It provides absolute proof these are blatant lies peddled by the media, while behind the scenes Jews deliberately target unarmed children with fragmentation bullets. All such fragmentation rounds are strictly prohibited by the Hague Convention, and it need hardly be mentioned that shooting children at all, is completely prohibited under almost every treaty and convention signed by man.

Thousands of Palestinian young men and boys may become permanently crippled from bullet wounds suffered during the last five months of stone-throwing protests against Israeli rule. As with Fouad Mahed, a carpenter from Gaza, many of the 11,000 injuries came when unarmed people were shot. The high rates of crippling injuries are in large part due to the fragmenting bullets fired by M16s. The American-made Colt weapons, introduced during the Vietnam War as lightweight field rifles capable of inflicting maximum damage on the enemy, are being used increasingly by the Israel Defense Forces against civilian demonstrators. The M16 ammunition often breaks into tiny pieces after penetration, ripping up muscle and nerve and causing multiple internal injuries, much like those of the internationally banned dumdum bullets.

Forensics experts in the United States and Europe, who agreed for this article to examine the X rays of Fouad Mahed and other wounded Palestinians, confirm repeated casualties from M16s, shotguns, and other live ammunition. These images, together with other X rays seen in West Bank and Jordanian hospitals, show a pattern some forensics specialists call a "lead snowstorm," the fragmentation of high-velocity military ammunition, fired at civilians. Many of the wounded were hit at short rangeless than 100 meters, compounding internal damage.



Yet in more than 100 interviews for this article, patients, doctors, and medical personnel in 14 hospitals and clinics in Jordan and the West Bank paint a far different picture. With no shooting from the Palestinian side, and often little or no use of tear gas to disperse the protests, Israeli soldiers have repeatedly fired live ammunition into unarmed crowds. Ibrahim Mustafa Darwish, 17, was shot in the abdomen on November 15, during protests at the Erez checkpoint that divides Gaza from Israel.


The sniper told Ha'aretz that soldiers are allowed to shoot at Palestinians who pose a potential threat, as long as they appear to be over the age of 12. "Twelve and up is allowed," said the sniper. A senior IDF officer told another Ha'aretz reporter: "Nobody can convince me we didn't needlessly kill dozens of children."

By your response, I can only conclude that the source material in question has a Palestinian origin.

In terms of an Israeli slant, nothing could be further from the truth. If Israel were making wild accusations against the Palestinians, I would expect to see the same independant verification before accepting their position.

Joe Vialis is full of shit. Anybody peddling this crap is not a reliable source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Vialls

Vialls claimed that many of his articles were hacked off his website years ago,[8] and that he was banned by Yahoo! and Paypal. Indeed, his original Yahoo! site remains unavailable today. However, Vialls' new site still boasts 170 articles starting with The Crash of American Airlines Flight 587 in Queens and ending with Bush, Blair & Howard Photo Atrocities. Vialls was an avowed anti-Zionist, alleging for instance that Zionists used a nuclear device in Bali. He also claimed most kidnapping of hostages in Iraq was done by the CIA and Mossad.

[snip]

Many of Vialls' investigations blamed significant world events - such as the 2004 Asian Tsunami - on joint CIA/Mossad operations, and Vialls maintained in disclaimers on his site that his reports were written in the interest of public safety. In other investigations, Vialls supposedly proved that such esoteric happenings as the death of Diana, Princess of Wales and a scandal involving the wearing of a swastika by Prince Harry were Zionist plots

[snip]

EDIT: as he died in 2005, I suppose the past tense is more proper. But anyway.

Thank you....

I wanted to respond to the Joe Vialls post in the worst way but decided to hold my tongue.

That's the hardest part with exposing such dirty acts against children or anyone else when it involves torture. Most of this stuff has been practiced by gov secret agencies that hardly ever make it to any mainstream media. That's also why some can protect those agencies in message boards while they demand mainstream agency reporting on the subject. They know it's little to no chance of being found in mainstream print. Everything else is non exceptable. How convenient.

I'm sure the likes of our CIA and the Mossad have a long history of torture techiques and it's wide spread usage of such. But of course, it's just a known given fact that Israel isn't nasty in any way, shape or form. They wouldn't dare abuse humans and especially children via torture, now would they? (hint of sarcasm)

11Bravo appears to understand the ramifications of this thread's OP. I'm catching up to speed with it all.

BTW, just to keep things in perspective.

Mass Arrests of Street Children in Egypt -- Beatings, Sexual Abuse Common in Police Custody
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/02/egypt021903.htm

Torture and Oppression of Kurds in Syria
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/suri.php?articleid=5142

Amnesty says that more than 2,000 people, almost all of them Kurds, were arrested after the riots. "Kurdish detainees, including children as young as 12, women, teenage girls and elderly people, were reportedly tortured and ill-treated," the report says. "Dozens of Kurdish students were expelled from their universities and dormitories, reportedly for participating in peaceful protests."

[snip]

Iran: Torture and Execution of Children
http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/...background.html

Torture of children

• Iran has ratified the UN convention for the rights of the child which bans death penalty for the offences committed as a minor. But so far this year (2008) at least two minors (Javad Shojaee and Mohammad Hassanzadeh) have been executed in Iran. More than 100 other minors are currently being held in Iranian prisons waiting for their death sentences. [7]

• The use of the death penalty in Iran, particularly for minors, has been condemned in resolutions of the European Union Parliament. EU states are urged not to deport to Iran any people whose lives could be in danger there.
According to the most recent resolution, "Iran and a few other countries still execute minors, but Iran is known to have executed more juvenile offenders than any other country in the world, and according to reports more than 100 individuals are on death row in Iran for crimes allegedly committed wen under the age of 18"

[snip]

Yes, it is terrible that torture of women and children happens all around the Middle East and the rest of the world. I've always wondered what happens to those women and children (millions?) who were driven out of Iraq because of US forces being there. These poor desperate people (Iraqis) end up in other countries and some will be turned into slaves, tortured, abused, and killed. There's no excuse for Israelis, Americans or anyone else to be this way. For me this is a large sign of mental decay taking place in modern times.

I found this Toronto, CA organization (Sumoud) to be honorable in it's efforts to help with the efforts for stopping torture such as what was learned by this OPs article. Since the information is long, I'll divide it up in the next few posts. Now, below is who has made this possible. Somoud has picked up on the 10 year old torture incident.



http://toronto.tao.ca/news-feeds



Newsfeeds

While toronto.tao.ca has it's own news stories and events listings, we also have syndicated newsfeeds that we have selected to appear here.

Many of these feeds are from sites we love and trust, many are organizations on oat.tao.ca, others are from more mainstream sources that still have useful news. We have put the feeds together in categories based on their average geographical news coverage so that they appear together with the most recent articles first. At the bottom of any feed block you can click on the "more" link to see the entire feed. Read more about RSS feeds on the site to make the best use of them.

Toronto - Local toronto area sites such as ocap.ca, cupe3903.tao.ca
Regional - North American sites such as sumoud.tao.ca and auto_sol.tao.ca
International - Worldwide sites such as a-infos and fromoccupiedpalestine.org
Mainstream - As you can expect. CBC, Al-jazeera, the BBC, and more.



welcome to sumoud



Sumoud (steadfastness in Arabic), is a political prisoner solidarity group established by a group of organizers in Toronto, Canada. We campaign primarily around Palestinian political prisoners being held by Israel, of which there are approximately 10000 currently behind bars. We also take up the imprisonment of indigenous, immigrant and racialized people in North America, as well as the role of the prison industrial complex in criminalizing poverty and political resistance. Central in our approach is an understanding of the illegitimacy of the prison as an institution in itself and the need for its abolition. To find out more about Sumoud, establish a Sumoud group in your community and support our work, contact us at sumoud(at)tao.ca


________________________________________________________________________________
______________



DCI/PS Statement

DCI/PS is appalled that Israeli authorities would subject a 10-year-old child to beatings, position abuse and threats over the course of several hours. The treatment of Ezzat falls within the definition of torture and other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment as defined in the UN Convention Against Torture, to which Israel is a State Party. The treatment of Ezzat also infringes numerous other international conventions to which Israel is bound1, as well as Israeli military and domestic law2.

DCI/PS again calls on Israel to immediately ensure its compliance with the UN Convention Against Torture and to thoroughly and impartially investigate the allegations of torture and abuse of Ezzat and bring those found responsible for such abuse to justice.

DCI/PS also calls on the EU to make the upgrade of EU-Israel bilateral relations conditional upon measurable and confirmed progress by Israel to uphold the EU human rights standards in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
-------------
1. Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) – article 5; Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) – articles 27 and 31 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1966) – article 7; and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) – articles 2(2), 3, 16 and 37(a).

2. Israeli military law establishes the specific offence of “ill treatment” which prohibits the beating or other abuse of any person in a soldier’s custody: see Military Adjudication Law, 5715-1955, Article 65. See also articles 378-382 of the Israeli penal code.

Please do what you can to contact these people in support for holding the IDF of Israel responsible for their actions to prevent further torture and abuse of children. Thank you.



** Take Action **

Please send appeals in English, Arabic, Hebrew or your own language to Israel and/or the EU:

Israel
Urging Israeli authorities to comply with the UN Convention Against Torture and thoroughly investigate the allegations of torture and abuse of Ezzat and other Palestinian detainees and bring those responsible for such abuse to justice.
Appeals to:

President of the State of Israel
Shimon Peres,President of the State of Israel
Office of the President
3 Hanassi St., 92188
Jerusalem, Israel.
Tel:
Fax: +972 2 5610033
Email: president@president.gov.il
Salutation: Dear President

Prime Minister of the State of Israel
Ehud Olmert, Prime Minister
Telephone:
Telephone2:
Email: eulmert@knesset.gov.il
Saluation: Dear Prime Minister

Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs
Ms. Tzipi Livni, MK
9 Yitzhak Rabin Blvd., Kiryat Ben-Gurion, Jerusalem 91035
Fax: + 972 2 5303367
Email: sar@mfa.gov.il
Salutation: Dear Foreign Affairs Minister


European Union
Urging the EU to pressure Israel to immediately ensure its compliance with the UN Convention Against Torture and thoroughly investigate the allegations of torture and abuse of Ezzat and other Palestinian detainees and bring those responsible for such abuse to justice.
Urging the EU to make the upgrade of EU-Israel bilateral relations conditional upon measurable and confirmed progress by Israel to uphold EU human rights standards in the occupied Palestinian territory.
Making the EU aware of the recent inclusion of Palestine/Israel as a priority conflict for the implementation of the EU Guidelines on Children and Armed Conflict, and of the subsequent reporting tasks on child rights violations incumbent upon EU diplomatic missions and EU institutions in the field.
Appeals to:

Mr. Bernard Kouchner, Ministre des Affaires Etrangères
Ministère des Affaires Etrangères français
37, quai d’Orsay, 75 007 Paris, France
Email: bernard.kouchner@diplomatie.gouv.fr

Personal Representative for Human Rights (CFSP) of the EU Secretary General/
High Representative Javier Solana
Ms. Riina Kionka
175 Rue de la Loi BE 1048 Brussels, Belgium
Fax. : +32 2 281 61 90
Email : riina.kionka@consilium.europa.eu

The Commissioner for External Affairs and European Neighbourhood Policy
HE Ms. Benita Ferrero- Waldner
Email: relax-enpinfo@ec.europa.eu

and just think about how much decay there was in OLDEN times when it was legal to own slaves

my point is that the world has been slowly but steadily improving with each age..

10-year-old subjected to torture by Israeli soldiers

Name: Ezzat H
Age at incident: 10
Date of incident: 11 June 2008
Location: Sanniriya, Qalqiliya
Accusation: None

A 10-year-old boy was subjected to physical abuse amounting to torture for 2.5 hours by Israeli soldiers who stormed his family’s shop on 11 June, seeking information on the location of a handgun. The boy was repeatedly beaten, slapped and punched in the head and stomach, forced to hold a stress position for half and hour, and threatened. He was deeply shocked and lost two molar teeth as a result of the assault.

On Wednesday 11 June 2008, at around 10:30am, 10-year-old Ezzat, his brother Makkawi (7) and sister Lara (8) were in their father’s shop selling animal feed and eggs in the village of Sanniriya, near the West Bank city of Qalqiliya. The children were suddenly startled to see two Israeli soldiers storm in to the shop.

Interrogation and abuse in the shop

One soldier wearing a black T-shirt started shouting in a loud, menacing voice in Arabic, “your father sent us to you to collect his gun”. A terrified Ezzat responded, “My father does not own a gun”. The soldier responded by slapping Ezzat hard across the right cheek and his brother Makawi across his face. The soldier then ordered Makkawi and Lara to leave the shop. Once the younger children had left the soldier demanded once again that Ezzat hand over his father’s gun. Although Ezzat repeated that his father did not own a gun the soldier ordered him to search for it in the sacks containing the animal feed. Ezzat kept insisting that there was no gun in the shop so the soldier slapped him once again, this time across his left cheek.

One of Ezzat’s friends, realising that something was wrong, tried to enter the shop but was kicked by the soldier standing at the door and prevented from entering. Soon a group of local people had gathered outside the shop. Some of the people in the group also tried to enter the shop but were prevented from doing so by the soldier at the door.

The soldier in the black T-shirt asked him once again to produce the gun. Ezzat answered, “We do not have anything”. The soldier responded by punching him hard in the stomach causing Ezzat to fall over on to empty egg boxes. Ezzat started screaming and crying out from pain and fear. The soldier in the black T-shirt started making fun of Ezzat and imitated him crying. Ezzat remained in the shop alone with the soldiers for a further 15 minutes when the soldier in black abruptly grabbed him by his T-shirt and dragged him out of the shop. Ezzat asked the soldier if he could lock up his father’s shop but the soldier said he wanted it to remain open so that it could be robbed. The soldier also threatened to put Ezzat in his jeep and take him away.

Once they were out of the shop, Ezzat was ordered to walk in front of the soldiers to his house, whilst a gun was pointed at his back. The soldiers hit him several times on the nape along the way. On approaching his house Ezzat saw many Israeli military officials surrounding the house and a number of green military vehicles parked outside. One of the olive coloured jeeps had the word “police” written on it.

Interrogation and abuse in the home

After arriving at the family’s home the soldier in the black T-shirt stood Ezzat in the yard and ordered him to search the flower basin for the gun. Before Ezzat had a chance to respond the soldier slapped him so violently that Ezzat fell down face first into the basin. Without giving him the chance to stand up the soldier grabbed him by his T-shirt and lifted him up roughly. He was then instructed in Arabic by another soldier to head to the guestroom.

On approaching the guestroom Ezzat could see his father standing by the door. The soldier slapped him on the neck and Ezzat fell to the ground. As Ezzat stood up the soldier slapped him a second time making him fall to the ground once again. All this happened in front of his father. He then grabbed Ezzat by his T-shirt and lifted him in to the air. The soldier told Ezzat’s father that he was going to take his son to prison. He also threatened to take Ezzat’s 19-year-old sister to prison. Ezzat was then pushed forcibly in to the guest room where his mother and four of his other siblings including his sisters Diana (19), Raghda (18), (Aya) 15 and brother Jihad (3), were being held. His mother was crying. Ezzat was also crying and when asked by his mother why he was crying, he said it was because he had been hit by the soldiers. His mother asked the soldiers to stop beating her son and to beat her instead.

After several minutes Ezzat was taken out of the guestroom and slapped several times by the soldier in black, once so hard that he fell to the ground. After being moved to several locations in the house Ezzat was told to stay in the boys’ bedroom. The same soldier then left the room but would return every five minutes to slap Ezzat and also to punch him several times in the stomach. Each time this took place Ezzat would shout and scream out in pain and burst in to tears. The soldier would then imitate him and make fun of him. The soldier hit him around six times.

Destruction of property and use of stress positions

A short time later, five soldiers entered the room and proceeded to destroy the family’s property using hammers. In all, the soldiers destroyed wooden ventilation panels in the attic, a small refrigerator in the bedroom and it contents, damage to the kitchen, a fan and the fireplace.

Ezzat spent one hour in the bedroom alone with the soldiers. In that hour he was ordered by the same soldier to stand on one foot for half an hour, with his back against the wall and with both his hands lifted up in the air (see picture). Ezzat was exhausted by this but was too scared to put his foot down on the ground. Eventually he was told by one of the other soldiers that he could put his foot down. He was then asked to sit down in a squat position. He managed to remain in this position for two minutes and then had to stand up. A female soldier then walked in to the room and asked him to sit on the refrigerator box.

Shortly after the soldier in the black T-shirt returned accompanied by Ezzat’s older sister Diana. He proceeded to ask Ezzat whether he cared for his sister to which Ezzat responded, “Yes I do”. The soldier then asked him to tell him where the gun was hidden and that if he told him where it was hidden that he would not tell Ezzat’s father. The soldier left the room with Ezzat’s sister. He then returned to the room on his own and hit Ezzat all over his body. He left the room once again and after a while came back offering Ezzat 10 Shekels in return for telling him where the gun was. Ezzat responded that he did not care about money. This made the soldier extremely angry and he took off his helmet and started throwing it at Ezzat from two metres away. Ezzat was in extreme pain. The soldier continued to hit him with the helmet and then left the room once again returning to slap him across his face and on his stomach. This continued for some time with the soldier leaving the room and returning to hit Ezzat and to question him over the gun.

Interrogation of family

Ezzat then witnessed the soldier in the black T-shirt and the female soldier leading his sisters and mother to one of the rooms close to the boys’ bedroom. They closed the door of the room but Ezzat could hear the soldiers shouting at them. He overheard the soldier telling the female soldier to hit his mother because she was refusing to take her clothes off to be searched. After the incident was over Ezzat’s sister informed him that they were all strip searched by the female soldier, while the male soldier waited outside.

Meanwhile, a soldier wearing black sunglasses entered the bedroom in which Ezzat was being held. He walked in pointing a rifle, a few centimetres away from Ezzat’s head. Ezzat was so terrified that he began to shiver. The soldier laughed and made fun of him. He asked Ezzat to tell him where the gun was and threatened to shoot him if he didn’t. Ezzat continued to maintain that there was no weapon hidden away. The soldier, getting agitated shouted at Ezzat, “for the last time, tell me where the gun is before I shoot you". Ezzat repeated that he did not have a gun. Hearing this, the soldier lowered his rifle and left the room. After about five minutes the soldier in the black T-shirt entered the room along with four other soldiers and said that they were leaving but would return.

The soldiers spent two and half hours in the house in total. After the incident Ezzat spent the night at his uncle’s house because he was too scared to sleep in his home. As a result of the physical assault Ezzat lost two of his molar teeth and is deeply shocked by the incident.

DCI/PS Statement

DCI/PS is appalled that Israeli authorities would subject a 10-year-old child to beatings, position abuse and threats over the course of several hours. The treatment of Ezzat falls within the definition of torture and other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment as defined in the UN Convention Against Torture, to which Israel is a State Party. The treatment of Ezzat also infringes numerous other international conventions to which Israel is bound1, as well as Israeli military and domestic law2.

DCI/PS again calls on Israel to immediately ensure its compliance with the UN Convention Against Torture and to thoroughly and impartially investigate the allegations of torture and abuse of Ezzat and bring those found responsible for such abuse to justice.

DCI/PS also calls on the EU to make the upgrade of EU-Israel bilateral relations conditional upon measurable and confirmed progress by Israel to uphold the EU human rights standards in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm...mp;CategoryId=1

There is evidence to suggest that the Cheney/Netanyahu/Abramoff Neocon alliance had ties to S. Africa's apartied government. This is the part of the Abramoff scandal which was swept under the rug when he was charged with corruption. It's the "limited hangout" again. When they let you see something ugly, they are hiding something even more ugly.




According to a biography of Jack Abramoff crafted by his lawyers in an appeal for leniency, "Hollywood politics" triumphed over his pious attempts to keep offensive language out of an action film he produced in the late eighties, RAW STORY has found.

But left unmentioned in the appeal is any hint that the film was shot in South African-occupied Namibia during apartheid, and may have even been partly funded by the South African military.

(snip)
Before filming started, according to Abramoff's account, director Joseph Zito made an "unprecedented informal agreement" with him to shy away from "obscenity and profanity," but went back on his word by shooting on Sabbath days, no less, scenes that contained "language that he felt should shame even the most hardened street thug."

In an article written in February for RAW STORY, Danny Schechter wrote that the "idea was to make anti-communist films that could denigrate the anti-apartheid movement." Schechter also wrote that while "for years, Abramoff publicly denied South African financing...the Mail & Guardian quoted one-time apartheid spy Craig Williamson as now admitting that the money came directly from the South African military." (link)

(snip)

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Abramoff...lm_he_0328.html

http://harpers.org/archive/2006/04/sb-the-...g-of-a-lobbyist

Before Jack Abramoff was sentenced on charges of fraud in the purchase of SunCruz Casinos, his friends sent character references to the court to show the kindler, gentler Abramoff (snip) But Abramoff's career in apartheid South Africa shows that he never had a moral compass at all.

David Margolick's recent Vanity Fair profile of Jack Abramoff omits a key part of the story, whitewashing Abramoff's past service on behalf of South Africa's apartheid government. (snip) Red Scorpion was not simply a sloppy piece of propaganda; it was a project of South African military intelligence, and Abramoff, according to my sources, was a willing asset of the apartheid government.

It started when Abramoff, as Chairman of the College Republican National Committee, visited South Africa in 1983. There, he came to know Russel Crystal, a South African intelligence asset who headed a government-funded student front group. Presumably, it was Crystal who in 1986 brought Abramoff in as the first chairman of the International Freedom Foundation (IFF)-a seemingly independent right-wing group headquartered in Washington, D.C., that was effectively run from Johannesburg and given the code name 'Pacman' by South African intelligence. I spoke to a source who was intimately familiar with the IFF and the key players behind it, and who asked not to be identified. "The South Africans needed front men," he told me. "Abramoff was identified early on as an ambitious, up-and-coming American conservative who could be useful."

The IFF/Pacman advocated for the contras in Nicaragua and the mujahideen in Afghanistan. But its primary interest was South Africa, and much of the group's energy was spent attempting to discredit Nelson Mandela and the global antiapartheid movement, opposing sanctions on the government and building support for Jonas Savimbi, the loopy but murderous Angolan faction commander backed by Washington and Pretoria (and upon whom Nikolai, Dolph Lundgren's character in Red Scorpion, is loosely based).

Abramoff ran the IFF until he reportedly left in 1989, the year he released Red Scorpion. South Africa pulled the money plug in the fall of 1991, and the IFF sputtered on for a few more years before closing up shop. In 1995 Newsday reported that the IFF had been a South African front group. Additional details emerged in reports from South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission: while the IFF did generate a small part of its own income through fundraising, that was primarily to provide cover for the as much as $1.5 million per year the group received from the apartheid government.

South Africa was careful to cover its tracks, and some people who worked at the IFF were apparently clueless as to their funding's actual source.

(snip)
Another IFF member, Craig Williamson, was a South African spy who had previously gained renown within intelligence circles for having infiltrated the African National Congress. Williamson acknowledged earlier this year to South Africa's Mail & Guardian that the money for Abramoff's movie came from South Africa.

"Yes, some people were duped by the IFF," said my source. "But Jack was not one of them. As chairman [of the IFF], he understood where the money was coming from. He knew exactly who he was playing with." A second source, who also asked not to be identified, agreed: "The only reason that Dolph Lundgren and Grace Jones were traipsing around Namibia was that the movie was an official propaganda project."

(snip)

And certainly it appears that Abramoff learned the tricks he brought to the lobbying trade—cut-outs, bogus charities, financial trickery, and double- and triple-budgeted projects—from his friends at South African intelligence.

(snip)


(from the link provided in prior post)

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0216-21.htm

A top-secret meeting was then underway between Savimbi and his boosters led by a young American Republican activist, none other than Jack Abramoff, a man who could bring down the current GOP Administration. He was there representing an organization he founded, the International Freedom Foundation. Abramoff, and others disguised their identities. His code name was “Pacman.”

Also present, a South African newspaper reports, “Leaders of the Afghan mujahedin, Nicaraguan contras, Laotian guerrillas and members of the Oliver North American right." (Could a Bin Laden operative have been there with the CIA-backed Afghan delegation? There’s no evidence of that yet.)

Unita’s strongman, the late Jonas Savimbi, who fancied calling himself Dr. Savimbi, was a masterful guerilla fighter who became the darling of the American right wing as it rallied to the cause of Unita’s main ally, racist South Africa. Conservatives dubbed him a freedom fighter, heralding him as their Che Guevara. In the end 600,000 people, mostly civilians would die in this bloody conflict, many as result of atrocities perpetuated by Unita. (I reported from Angola in that period and can confirm it was an awful bloodletting with cities like Lubongo destroyed and thousands displaced.)

Abramoff’s trip to Angola had been paid for by right-wing New York financier Lewis Lehrman as part of an effort to create a global anti-communist alliance. (Lehrman later fired Abramoff, who would go on to become the most notorious lobbyist in America, for inflating his expense reports, a portent of corrupt practices to come.)


(snip)

Up to a point in time, I would agree with your last sentence 100%. Since 2000, we've been thrown into reverse and decaying at a much faster rate now. Bush has done so much damage for so many years, that I'm afraid it's become the accepted norm.

Wars only bring more hatred as we're witnessing now in the Middle East.

Would you also say that there may be some strong connections between Abramoff and that same neocon mentailty that drives the likes of the Mossad and IDF's brutal actions against some children and women.

It's a total shame to know what goes on there. I still can't imagine something happening like that especially to a 10 year old. It's wrong to do something like that to a 10 year old regardless.

Do they even allow Jews in Egypt and Syria, yet?

Syria - well, as I understand it, there's a handful of them left. Many of course fled in 1947-8. There were 4000 in Damascus and other cities up until 1992 when Assad made them an unusual deal; they could emigrate, as long as they went to the U.S., not Israel. So where did they go? Brooklyn, of course.

I understand it remains almost impossible to enter the country if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport, but other Jews are let in for visitation.

Egypt - I was just there recently. I visited the Ben Ezra synagogue in Cairo, it's 800 years old, and now in the Coptic section surrounded by churches dedicated to St. George and the Holy Family. Unfortunately, it is only a museum at this point, as there are only 100 Jews in all of Egypt, the remaining ones scattered mostly throughout Cairo, but not enough to make a minyan anywhere.