I believe as a group we can come up with our own solutions. For instance, poverty: what are your own thoughts or ideas about solving poverty? I'll just offer a few sentences and add to my thoughts later, if and when anyone else wants to help.

Education is key to solving poverty, if just for this reason: an educated electorate studies the candidates more closely, lobbies and participates in the legislative process in government, and elects the best person qualified for the job, rather than letting slip through such fellas like Tom DeLay, for instance (who slipped into government in order to change regulation on pesticides. We know what happened after that).

Also, a state of the art education from the beginning: heavy focus on k-5, saves tax payers money on down the line (decreases chances for re-education, incarceration, and health issues).

Poverty can be solved by turning the world right side up again: CEO salaries are absurd. How about giving the workers a raise when profits improve.

Is poverty a state of mind. How many Americans live beyond their means anyway. How many Americans grow their own food? Are American's priorities out of whack? Why not give back to every American an incentive to save, rather than an incentive to borrow or charge?



Living in a more green society could solve poverty. Just making adjustment in our communities (through urban planning) without the need for cars is a great start. Close-in communities: live, work, play in a 10 mile radius.

What else usually accompanies poverty: poor health.

Walking or biking to work, both saves money and improves our health. Number one: the community is more serene, not as much noise (traffic) and not encased/surrounded by car pollution.

I think we first need to define exactly it is we are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

By this definition, I lived in poverty for all of my childhood and for the first 10 to 15 years of my adult life. As a child living in poverty, we always had food on our table and a place to sleep. Coming from a large family, the younger kids would get the hand-me-downs in terms of clothing and such. However, I don't ever recall being in any duress from our situation. I feel I had a normal childhood.

As an adult living in poverty, I owned my own house and lived fairly comfortably with my wife and my son. We had to watch our budget and didn't have a lot leftover for non-essential items.

Thus, when you talk about poverty, are you talking about those who are making a comfortable living but statistically live below the poverty line? Or are you talking about those who live in abject poverty, where life really is a daily struggle?

How would I combat poverty? I think it has to start with strengthening Labor. We need a Worker's Bill of Rights.

http://lpa.igc.org/documents/lpd_workplace.html

We could start here. It most definitely, absolutely should be illegal to fire anyone, regardless of status, simply for trying to form a labor union.

Now, like Wal-Mart, I guess they could always close down the store if the employees unionize (which they did), but at least it's a start.

absolutely, that is the problem, lack of unions and a few other things, republicans hate unions..imagine that

This is a subject that could involve many pages to write about. What ideas that people come up with unfortunately won't be applied by governing bodies over said people. Human nature stops those in authority from doing what's right.

But.... as individuals, we need to give something of ourselves to others. If there are 100 million people in poverty and there's at least another 100 million people who aren't, those fortunate 100 million people each could give something of themselves to the one who is in poverty, enough to ease their strains of poverty. That would be a start. Since governing bodies won't properly address these situations that drives most people into poverty, the problem will never be resolved. But it can be eased by individual effort. I have personally done this for over 20 years now. Think if 100 million people did the same.

Three things;

Universal Health care

Strong manufacturing base

Strong Unions

Poverty as a state of mind? Which brings up the way some (or most) evangelicals today preach the prosperity message. Is it right to stand on a religious pulpit, teaching the prosperity message? What does the prosperity message entail? Does it involve sharing, as Aboutbreath mentioned? I do know that Joel Olsteen has a lot of luxurious assets? Is that right? Or wrong? And how does this address the intent of this thread - solving poverty.



Some said this guy came from nothing because he grew up on a boat within a large family unit.

We're just talking about values here, not real, grinding poverty. Farmer's parents were obviously able to offer love and education. Which is what I mentioned above as one of the solutions to poverty: education.

Did you see this on Washington Journal yesterday?

Very interesting and sad, but hopeful there is organizing.

http://www.casademaryland.org/

The guest was Alexis DeSimone and she survived a lot of angry calls.

She talked about abuses of domestic workers. There are no laws protecting them.

The group is working with state and local governments on legislative solutions, rather than with Feds.

I think it is important to pursue the definition what we are talking about and who specifically are we targeting, as that would help determine possible remedies.

For example:

Most of my extended family continues to live below the poverty line. They are living comfortably and are not looking for any solutions. They are happy with their lifestyle and are not looking for any changes.

In the past, I've participated in the Meals-On-Wheels program. I have delivered meals to the infirm who are living in abject poverty. These are folks who are barely able to take care of themselves and depend heavily on the goodwill of those who are more fortunate.

Inner city children who are subjected to gang related peer pressure on a daily basis, with little hope of making it out of this hellish environment.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution.

Well then, good work.

Your contribution:
inner city children
the elderly

I want to offer a definition of "poverty."

"Poverty" exists where a fit and capable adult cannot gainfully use the sweat of his or her brow to achieve the fruits of his/her labor, and improve her/his lot in life to the degree and in the manner as befits their capacity.

This touches a bit more upon the American character than some of the European definitions of labor - but it does consider labor itself as the means by which one can achieve reward.

Prosperity is a psychological measure of a society. The confluence of freedom, ability, justice and technology all gather within societies to ease the burden of labor from the ancient days of the hunter-gatherer worlds, and allow people, to a greater or lesser degree, to do and achieve things far greater than just the endless search for food when starving. And one knows whether one is expressing one's own abilities, or rather is hampered by deliberate and external forces. And one knows whether one has received the fruits of one's on labor - or whether they are stolen, and also the converse, whether one is living on illicit fruits of other's labor. A society is only as prosperous or lacking, as it sees itself to be, based upon reasonable principles.

Marx stated: From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. I am amused that some significant fraction of the American populace identifies this as a phrase from the Constitution, as I have heard in un-attributed assertions.

Such things, if they are to exist, can only exist within a prosperous society. They cause wreckage and lack when implemented within a society which is not prosperous.

I would suggest that any proposal to "end poverty" is just as well considered in the vein of "promoting prosperity" such that any American might prosper to the degree that she/he wishes.

for starters, those of us who dont think we are taxed enough could give that extra money to help others.

I would propose then three approaches, to three aspects of poverty:

1. Diminishing the burden on the capable working poor. One of the cruelest burdens on the working but capable poor is the weight of taxation. People making minimum wage are taxed by State, Federal, and other agencies, such that the fruit of their labor is taken away in myriad ways. Here in New Mexico, we have a Gross Receipts Tax, which draws a certain percentage - up to 8% - of every transaction, including labor. This is in addition to all of the income and FICA and Medicare and other burdens sustained by working persons. I know that the suggestion raises other concerns, but I propose that MINIMUM WAGE be used as a benchmark for NO TAX BURDEN. It was proposed as so when the Federal Income Tax came into being. A person earning $9/hour should receive $360.00 in pay at the end of the week - without the many withholdings, etc.
2. Remedying impediments to the capable but infirm. We choose, for instance, to ignore society's burden of serious mental illness - spending tens of thousands of dollars to incarcerate, rather than trying to treat these people to productivity.
3. Caring for those who cannot produce. There are those whom, by age, infirmity or incapacity, cannot produce enough to provide for themselves. Simple humanity requires that these people receive care.

These are the general principles which many can embrace for ending poverty. I welcome thoughts.

That's a solution: those who say that need to act. Do you know of any who have done this?

The Federal Minimum Wage is $6.55 per hour effective July 24, 2008. In New Mexico, the new state minimum wage of $6.50 (of course, subsumed by the Fed) and Santa Fe has $9.50/hr. ref. Sorry for confusion.

Just for starters - the FICA ceiling should be removed, and a FICA floor protecting the first $15,000 worth of earned wages - now that's a start.

I'll just add to this:

PRISONS FOR PROFIT - NOW on PBS

This is summary of what I learned:

America has largest prison pop in world. 7% of America's inmates are now in private prisons. Across the country the numbers have grown faster than the govt. can build prisons. Critics say these privates prisons are not only immorally wrong but unsafe.


In this last weeks NOW presentation on PBS, they interviewed a Colorado State Representative named Buffy. This is her passion (her song) - she has 12 prisons in her district and most outspoken critic - very brave. She wants to change this system in Colorado. Coloardo has doubled the prison population in 10 years - whoopee!! She doesn't want to keep building prisons - every dollar put there takes away from the repair of infrastructure in her state. She says there is a veil of secrecy. "They" (her critics) say she is Locked arm and arm with The American Federation of Govt. Employees Union. Shame on her.

Her full name is Buffy McFadden

1. Corrections Corporation Of America (CCOA) - largest Private Correction Company

2. Reduce expenses on labor costs (saves millions)

3. Sacrifice safety for profit

4. Say if there is a bill in legis. to reduce sentencing? Lobbyists in Colorado, lobby for harsher/longer sentencing (they have investment in failure)

Of course CCOA do not admit this, but it does exist in the halls of Colorado legislature, according to Buffy.

5. Corrections Trade Show in Dallas - (non-profit) American Correctional Assoc. Winter Conference is like part carnival atmosphere/trade show taking advantage of the 35B spent by Fed. Govt. each year. They are selling their wares: new kinds of guns The Launcher (less lethal) and top notch tech lock-up.

6. Corporate Corrections is profitable - CCOA cleared a 35M profit last year.

7. Reason for a state to go private, says CCOA marketing Rep, Louise Grant? No initial investment in capital dollars - infrastructure. Never lost a contract due to poor performance, she says. Buffy knows better.

7. 35 states now have private prisons (113K) - 1 in every 100 Americans in prison.

8. Next victim profit center for Privates? Immigrant Centers (of course)




Full story, transcript and video (20 minutes) shown here:
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/419/index.html

One of the problems is that wages do not rise in keeping with productivity. So many of the "working poor" are working just as hard and just as long but are not reaping the additional rewards of productivity.
In addition, the cost of health care, child care and elderly care has sky rocketed. Given the recent inflation numbers, poverty has to be steadily on the increase in this country. So defining poverty becomes increasingly hard - it's not just the bag lady looking through the garbage.
Article from NYT about the above:

August 28, 2006
Real Wages Fail to Match a Rise in Productivity
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE and DAVID LEONHARDT
With the economy beginning to slow, the current expansion has a chance to become the first sustained period of economic growth since World War II that fails to offer a prolonged increase in real wages for most workers.

That situation is adding to fears among Republicans that the economy will hurt vulnerable incumbents in this year’s midterm elections even though overall growth has been healthy for much of the last five years.

The median hourly wage for American workers has declined 2 percent since 2003, after factoring in inflation. The drop has been especially notable, economists say, because productivity — the amount that an average worker produces in an hour and the basic wellspring of a nation’s living standards — has risen steadily over the same period.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/business...nF7eWO7526OKkQw

No argument from me. Anytime we speak of reducing the tax burden I'm on board.



I'm fine with rehabilitation, but there has to be built in controls to ensure there would be no release of individuals who pose a threat to society.



In this case I would rather place the burden on the private sector, with Federal and state Government incentives and funding - rather than the Government becoming soley responsible.

Wow, I woke up with a thought about CEO salaries and how backwards that system has become and nationally accepted now. Giving incentives to sever with the Corporation is just plain stupid. If there is a big severence package in the contract just in case of "what if" these golden parachutes are very attractive for these people to deploy. So if the do their jobs, they make lots of money for the Board of Directors, maybe the stockholders but since enron that is false. So maybe they risk giant liabilities and then say, "Oh well, time to open my parachute".

India has recently announced a reduction of wheat imports to grow their own wheat. I think it goes back to some old logic, feed a man for a day or help him buy a tractor like Bono. Logistics are a big factor when emeshed with a volatile commodity coming from volatile regions of the world. That makes things very cost effective to utilize local and available resources. The Clinton plan based on WTO enlightenment of buying AIDs drugs from India for Africa is very cost effective. It's a matter of taking advantage of inexpensive medications from one nation and then shipping those meds where they are needed most, probably the heart of a fire known as HIV. Same goes with mosquito nets supplied in larger quanities now through Idol Gives Back program.

Liblaw pointed out the Victory Garden concept popular post World War II in Great Britian. As the Patriot/Farmers layed down their weapons going back to the farm there were food shortages. Again the answered seemed to be local and available food sources even in urban settings. My grandmother, a survivor of the great depression would bury her garbage in her backyard garden. She rotated her "fields" in that one season she would bury garbage in one side of her "field" and plant on the other side. Both of my grandfathers happened to be farmers, one raised vegatables while the other raised cattle. Both had farms very close to urban areas. Farmer markets in urban settings are nothing new, logistics. Amish still practice this concept on a local basis throughout states like Pennsylvania and Ohio. When I could afford to travel, I liked visiting some of these farmer markets set up in Pennsylvania Turnpike rest stops. Now all we need is to have the majority of those rest stops having traditional and alternative fuel sources available hopefully from a local level.

Reducing the tax burden on whom?

Reduce it on the lower income levels and increase it progressively to the point of confiscation of all personal assets in excess of $20 million! There needs to be an equitable distribution of the wealth derived from exploiting this nation's resources.

Reasonable wealth is acceptable. Excessive wealth equates to royalty. Seize it!

So what happens when people just stop earning after $20 million? Why should they continue to earn if it's just going to be seized??

People making over $20 mil are still paying taxes. All those tax dollars would be lost.

I was speaking in the generic sense.



What you are talking about here is wealth redistribution and punishing those who have risen to the top. I don't subscribe to that and think those actions would actually make the U.S. a poorer nation.

I will never understand why anyone would think punishment of corporations and rich individuals would actually reduce poverty in the U.S. Would really like to understand how that would work.

There also needs to be changes made that criminalize actions by employers that exploit both workers and governments. Many employers hire primarily part-time workers, or "independent contractors" a practice that leaves many workers who actually work full time or full time with overtime without health care benefits, workman's compensation protections and creates underfunded social security accounts. This leaves many single parents who are hired as part-time workers but work full time eligible for Medicaid and/or food stamps, transposing those programs into corporate subsidies. Business owners who hire workers "under the table" should have heavy fines and jail sentences imposed upon them. I actually know an older couple that own a bar that hires all their "help" under the table, then does proper paperwork and gives weekly pay and benefits to their honkey-tonk musician adult children as though they are full time employees...unemployment insurance, worker's comp, and social security all paid into the system for their benefit, too. And there's another glad hand in this scam, they get a business deduction far greater than the $2 an hour plus tips jobs would provide.
There's so much wrong with the system, the whole thing needs to be scrapped.

The consequences of excess gives us people like GWB, that's why.

They don't all turn out like Bill Gates or Ted Turner.

Look the otherside of the coin to me is the "Guilty Parent Syndrome". Some parents hurt their children then feel remorse, then give them money to go buy a new mountainbike or somthing like that. Throwing money at a problem is not a good solution unless that money is wisely spent. Government programs act like guilty parents all the time. Look how much money was lost through Katrina.

So some say tax breaks or tax increases will help stimulate the economy or not. Taxing oil companies not re-investing a certain percentage of profits make sense considering these companies are sitting on fossil fuel leases all over the world. Reducing taxes to increase disposable income may work temporarily but what is the probem ? Is it not cost of living increases due to inflation ? Hey, if gasolene prices hit seven bucks a gallon no tax breaks to the peons are going to absorb those costs.

Poverty is what it is. I am not going to argue semantics. If one has ever lived in or experinced poverty like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama then you know the meaning of poverty. Bush just has never experienced that condition himself. And it is like a social or genetically inherited disease which moves from generation to generation without corrections such as education.

We know what to do. Problem is too many dumb asses buy into Tom Friedman or Corporatism or Xenophobia or some stupid argument of Capitalism versus Socialism.

Germany, Japan, Switzerland and Taiwan are four nations that are very much like our own and they can provide affordable health insurance, education, living wage and viable public transportation for their citizens. (And for you gun lovers, there's switzerland to look at...)

I'm tired or defining the solutions. First, we need a government that will enforce the laws we have, second, we need to get rid of this selfish, me first mindset, and start looking at affordable health care, education, transportation and good jobs and wages for all as what defines us as Americans first.

Fine, but you didn't answer the question. What happens when the country loses all those tax dollars? There's a lot of legitimate business people who earn more than $20M and pay their taxes. That's a lot of tax money you're willing to give up just to prove a point.

I don't know if my thoughts would end poverty, but it sure would help the hungry, although cities and Municipalities would never go for it, because involves free food....replacre all those unproductive tree lined streets and parks with fruit, trees, nut trees and any food-producing trees...yes, they could be a mess, but once people got used to the idea, they could just pick what they need and be domne with it. Tomato plants instead of ivy etc. etc. It would however create jobs for maintence and up-keep, and of course the 'left-overs; could be donated to food banks etc. Apricot Jam anyone?

I am certainly not for confiscation of everything once you hit $20 mil, but to answer your question, just because a CEO stops getting profit after a certain amount (assuming it is high enough and $20 mil is) doesnt mean the company wont produce the same amount of product or service...

What we need to do is go back to the days when excessive profits were taxed appropriately for one who wants to live in a democracy occupied by decent and moral people...the exact scale we can argue about, but that we need to do it seems obvious.

Then let them step aside, relax and enjoy their wealth, and let somebody else take over.

If you discover a way to make $20 million, unless the method requires biological input from your DNA there is someone else who is eager to build his own fortune by following in your footsteps.


What happened to Ford when Henry died? And therein lies the tale.

Actually to some there is an easy scale especially when it comes to Big Oil. We are now experiencing the third recession due to Oil since 1979 I think. So we have economics and guide not political economics like Supply-Side Spending.

There is a point whereby profits which are taken out of circulation, inflation, leads to economic damage of micro and macro economies. That suggests anti-trust in that the right to incorporate has been violated when the corporation damages the enviroment it is allowed to function in.

So on the ole accounting or economic charts, there is "normal profit" in accounting terms where revenues equal expenses or no profit. Then above that point is profit when revenues are exceeding expenses. Higher up that scale are where these profits start damaging society through inflation known to lead to recession through economic history. Actually economics is the study of past economic realities to explain current day economic reality and to make predictions on future events. That's why disinformation concerning economics is like polluting the Pentagon through politics.

There is some kind of balance between OPEC and that Texass Cattleman's Association. Big Earle likes to function in a Boom to Bust mentality, instablity. OPEC seeks to stabilize prices. The disinformation still trying to be propagandized onto Americans is that we are experiencing Stagflation. That could be part of a political motive to justify Supply-Side Spending. Even Reygun Ronnie would have conceded the fact that we are in a recession evidenced by fuel costs, job losses, dividend losses and the value of the dollar. We are entering a Bear Market, no fuckin duh.

Lewis Black on these issues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v616xq8RaLM

I don't understand your Ford model. The family took over - so what?

People usually don't "discover" a way to make $20M. It happens in many different ways. How is someone going to "step into your shoes" if you stand aside?
Makes no sense at all. Confiscating someone else's wealth has never worked and is not an answer for the future. Marxism is an example - crashed and burned everywhere it was tried.

Here are some ideas....

- Fully Fund the VA
Many of the homeless we see on our streets are veterans who lost jobs or homes during their tour of duty, and/or didn't receive support both mental, physical, and financial when they returned. Giving vets the care they need is a big way to reduce poverty and help them reintegrate into society.

- Begin public works projects to rebuild our infrastructure.
Huge swaths of the country have been damaged by natural disasters, and still others simply need routine maintanence. Begin employing impoverished residents of these areas and create jobs that people can actually live on, with living wages. It's their community, they should have a voice, and a hand in rebuilding it.

- Increase funding for alternative energy research, development, and implementation by 500%.
This is a not just a security issue. Stopping global warming isn't about saving the planet. It's about saving people. And a green economy will create thousands of new jobs. Give tax incentives to businesses in impoverished areas that retrofit older buildings with green technology. This will both improve the living standard in these areas, and improve the larger community's health as well.

- Cut all defense programs that cannot demonstrate measurable results in security improvement.
If education must endure quality testing, so must the DOD. For every dime you take away from the DOD, give it to fund education. Use eminent domain to take unused empty box store space back from Walmart and other similar retailers who've over-extended themselves, and turn them into new school buildings.

- Pass law setting global living wage.
All companies who hope to either operate in, or sell to America, must adhere to a minimum of this living wage. The wage will be adjusted for inflation.

- Create line item for tax forms wherein citizens may decide to which department 10% of their taxes may be routed.
Direct citizen participation encourages personal investment and interest in the country as a whole.

- Close ALL corporate tax loopholes.
If a corporation makes a profit onshore or off, they must pay their fair share. With the increase in corporate taxes to at a minimum 1950's percentages, we can correspondingly reduce the middle class tax burden, and eliminate taxes on the poor.

- Eliminate the FED.
Follow the Constitution and have the U.S. Treasury handle the printing and valuation of our monetary supply. We should not be paying interest on our own money to a bunch of private bankers.

- Roll back the Bush tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy.
To whom much is given, much is required, and it's time for them to pay their fair share as well.

- Create significant tax incentives for companies that offer job retraining services, or who improve the environment.

- Offer rehire and promotions to every member of government who has left public service in disgust at the Bush Administration's excesses. Pass a law barring any Bush appointee, in any department, from ever serving in government in any capacity ever again.

- Decriminalize marijuana and ecstasy use.
Regulate their purity, and tax their sales. Increase funding for drug treatment centers. Hard drug use is a medical problem, not a criminal one. Recognize the scientifically proven physiological difference between softer drugs and highly detrimental ones such as crack cocaine.

- Support and fund micro-loan programs (ala Grameen Bank) both in poor sections of the United States, and throughout the Third World.

- Eliminate the Death Penalty.
We are all more than the worst thing we've ever done, and I don't want any more mistakes like Jesse & Sonny Jacobs to happen. Both were sentenced to Death Row for crimes they didn't commit and remained in prison after the man who did, confessed to the crime. Jesse was executed. It took three electric shocks to kill him. Each shock lasted nearly a minute. The entire process lasted 13 minutes. At the end, flames were coming off his head, and smoke coming out his ears. And he was innocent. No more like that. Additionally, Death Row is actually more costly to the taxpayer than life in prison without parole, so it is both immoral and uneconomical.

- Give pro-labor organizing laws real teeth, and enforce them.
Aggressively prosecute corporations that violate workers rights to organize.

- Create national health care based on the Scandanavian model.
Remove the ban preventing the government from negotiating lower prices with prescription drug manufacturers. Make the German model of one month paid vacation yearly for all, be they waitress or CEO, the national standard. Wherever possible, encourage telecommuting for both the benefit of the environment, and for people to spend more time with their families, while still being productive.

- Overturn the credit card-sponsored Bankruptcy Bill.
Eliminate predatory lending, especially of college-age youth by aggressively punishing creditors who engage in it. Stop endless fees, and changes to interest rates at will. Interest rates on debt should only be allowed a modest increase if the debtor pays late. Anything else is usury.

- Increase funding for Native education on Indian Reservations, including adult job training programs.

- Eliminate the Enron Loophole on commodities speculation.
Make those who profited off of such speculation pay 50% tax on those profits, and divert that money into a fund to help mortgage holders who were subjected to predatory loans.

- Give tax incentives to suburban homeowners who plant local Victory Gardens, and create municipal Farmer's Markets where their locally grown produce can be sold on the weekends.
Reduces environmentally damaging cross-country trucking, provides healthier food, and converts useless lawn space into something productive for the community at large, and creates second revenue streams for home owners. Apartment rooftop gardens should be encouraged for the same reasons, and because it will reduce the heat-island effect within our cities.

Wealth redistribution, yes. But the "punishment" would exist only in proportion to the subject's level of greed. Anyone who would not be content with a personal fortune of $20 million deserves to feel "punished" by government control over his gluttonous greed.

Wealth is power. Excessive wealth is excessive power, which is dangerous. The most damaging problems our nation is experiencing today is the direct result of political machinations by the super-rich. The power these people wield must be controlled if we are to remain a free and democratic society.


Please explain how.


First, I have no problem with a corporation accumulating and holding vast profits, provided they are earned via legal and socially acceptable methods. The $20 million limit I've proposed should apply only to personal (individual) assets.

Have you been paying attention to reports of corporations whose employees wages have been cut, their benefits and pension plans cut or discontinued, while CEOs are earning $50 million a year and retiring with $350 million "golden parachute" bonuses? That is but one highly conspicuous model of the process which is gradually disassembling the American middle class. There are many more.

I readily admit I am a socialist. But I'm not a communist. I simply believe that fortunes in excess of $20 million are rarely if ever produced through lawful, moral means. They are produced through some form of exploitation and/or devious manipulation (insider trading, etc.) and much of which we are seeing today is the direct result of deregulation, such as Reagan's deregulation of the Savings and Loan industry and the deregulation that made the Enron swindles possible -- and on and on.

The only way to control these machinations is by imposing limits on accumulated wealth. Remove the motivation for gluttony and the moral atmosphere of the nation will soon change.

That is one solution but here is another and I will quit there due to an gastrointestinal inflammation I have right now. Your solution as quoted above is one method to balance out our economy.

A moderate approach would be to encourage re-investment of profits and not just lip service through fancy TV adds. Re-investment does increase expenses reducing profits but at the same time offers stability price control in that things will level off at a lower price to consumers so as not to damage micro and macro economies. An example would be Alaska contracts right now. If profits are re-invested into the fossil fuel industry of Alaska then they do get a tax break.

I have heard arguments from both sides of the spectrum now. In Sweden or Switzerland, gas taxes have been increased to lower demand. In China, subsidies have been eliminated as a conservation effort. I don't think conservation through profits work because it leads to Recession, anti-trust in my world.

"The only way to control these machinations is by imposing limits on accumulated wealth. Remove the motivation for gluttony and the moral atmosphere of the nation will soon change.
[/quote]

Can you give an example where this model has every worked?

Oops. Forgot one.

- Kill NAFTA and CAFTA, and pull out of the WTO until it treats Third World countries equitably.

Well, I might get shot or shot at for this but what the Hel.

As a whole, most of us would dearly love to brain-storm an answer to poverty, but there's a nasty side to reality that you have to take into consideration while in the process of "killing the beast" - I've mentioned it before, the oh-so-ugly "Crabs-In-A-Bucket Syndrome" or (quick intake of breath, dare I say it?) Entitlement On Steroids. You have a whole mess of folk out there that don't know more than what they've ever had. You have generations of children that have never known a family structure of more than one natural parent or grandparent with a wandering cast of characters that run from the sublime to the horrific. You have babies having babies, daughters who live in fear of a step-parent with sexual deviancy hidden under a holier-than-thou exterior, and then a broken foster system that focuses more on cost-per-child rather than quality of care.

Don't get me started on the educational infrastructure - Bush SHAT on ours before he managed to mangle the rest of the country....but after years of Fundamentalists infiltrating our textbook selection system, what difference would it have made if he hadn't? Kids are still not being taught the invaluable critical thinking skills so desperately needed to change the status quo.

Be this as it may be - I'm thinking that there is a possibility to "light a candle" here. Micro loans for small personal businesses might be the answer. Having been on food stamps and Federal Assistance a time or two in my life, I know that anyone that can successfully navigate that hellacious system of paperwork can likewise succeed in a small business of their own. Nothing breeds success like success....and altho' I'm tempted to give up on the human race time and again, everyone has some small gift to offer the rest of us. Why not get paid for it?

Just my dos centavos,


Kyoti

This of course is imperative.

I also believe that private property should be a constitutional right.
That way everyone would have some sort of equity, a place to grow food if needed, collateral for loans, etc.

Poverty cannot be stopped when people have no place to call their own.

What it proves is someone else can take over a successful enterprise.


If Bill Gates dropped dead tonight do you believe that would be the end of Microsoft? If not, why not?


Marxism is communism. Which communist model can you cite in which its citizens were allowed to accumulate $20 million fortunes via capitalist enterprise? I haven't recommended conversion to a collectivist economy. In fact, what I've proposed equates closely to the system of taxation imposed by the FDR New Deal, which led to the growth of the middle class and a phenomanal national economy but which has been eliminated by incremental deregulation, beginning with the Reagan Administration and continuing through Clinton and now this sonofabitch -- the very embodiment of the evils of extreme capitalism.

What American needs is no billionaires but lots of millionaires, an economically strong middle class and zero poverty. Our national resources are sufficient to provide for that. All that is needed is sensible, equitable distribution to eliminate greedy exploitation.

well i think you have to deal with the problem directly and sometimes the "facts" of the problem are ugly and easy to overlook.

if most of your poor is of one or two races then i think you have to look to your government to level the playing field.

guaranteed free education and healthcare for poor children is a beginning that changes the future.

Yes. The system of taxation imposed by the FDR New Deal, which imposed up to 97% taxation on the super rich. It led to the growth of the American middle class and transformed the U.S. into the worlds wealthiest and most powerful creditor nation. My proposal amounts to a shortcut means of achieving the same purpose. The main difference is it gets right to the point: $20 million and that's it. No more American royalty.

Republican deregulation has gradually eliminated that redistribution via an endless sequence of deregulations beginning with the Reagan Administration. That union-busting bastard started the decline of the middle class.

And it ties in to the other things I mentioned on the list above that, like creating a global living wage, and balancing the power generally to reduce corporate influence.

We're all wrapped up with terrorism as the big boogieman right now, but the real challenge for the 21st Century is going to be in creating Economic Democracy, and making our corporate structures more reflective of the ideals of freedom, rather than the chief opposition to those liberties that they are now.

Well said. Doing that will call for radical and forceful measures, so I hope the November election will empower people who are up to the task.

I was beginning to think you had me on ignore too.


Yep. They think they have "terror" now. Wait until the fledgling global economic crises hits full tilt boogie.

Indeed these giant global corporations need to be answering to the same authority. Tightly regulated world wide.
When these corporatists take their (NAFTA) production to other nations in an attempt to find labor at sub-living wages they in fact create poverty. As the standards of living in those nations rise due to economic growth, these corps don't raise the pay. Allowing only a few to live well and the rest to struggle to put food on the table.

What you fail to realize is that the world doesn't work that way. Those that have accumulated the kind of wealth you seem to have a problem with, will not be satisfied with stopping at $20 million. If the U.S. government stands in the way of their wealth accumulation, they would be happy to pursue their interest somewhere else.

You might say good riddance, but you would be very mistaken if you don't think that would have a major impact on the U.S. economy.

Make the US a nation of industry rather than consumerism.

Companies that take their production to other nations in order to exploit cheap labor should be forbidden to export their products back to this country. Complete and total lock out.
They can then be replaced with more patriotic companies that keep their overheads down, pay a living wage and manufacture (or whatever) here at home.

They can always have their assets seized and be thrown in jail too. In a perfect world that is.