Randylover---One thing I hated about the Corps. Chow line, 0500, Camp Pendleton, any time of year, they'd open all the chow hall doors, and whatever you got was cold and frozen by the time you made it to your table. I used to fake med. appts., take the bus to mainside, and have a nice hot breakfast made to order in the hopital, and stay for dinner and supper. Stroll in around 18:30, and hang out with the boys, then go to the E-club and call it day, I did that once a week for a month one time. My CO asked what was going on with the doc's, and I said they want me to have warm food more often!!! He told the KP Sgt. to shut the doors on the permanent personell side, so I won!!! And I was cured miraculously!!!

Firstly, I don't even know where mental illness entered this discussion. As far as I can tell, he's mentally stable. If he WAS mentally ill then there would be no problem, the military wouldn't take him. As it stands he probably isn't otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this.

He is an adult. There is NO WAY that he doesn't know the facts and consequences surrounding this decision. I "write him off" because it's his life and not my or your decision to make.

We all rallied around Terry Schiavo's husband and the pro-choice movement, as we rightly should have, because they were about an individual's choice and informed decision. I've already posited that it's impossible that he doesn't know he's going into danger and it's an insult to his common sense to assume he doesn't know the Air Force, Navy or even the Coast Guard wouldn't be a safer place.

We can't stand behind one person's or one group's right to determine their future and then oppose another just because one we agree with and one we don't. Personally I think he's a fool for wanting to join the Army, but it's his choice and his right to decide. If he decides later to go against it or join a 'safer' service then so be it. The important thing is letting an ADULT make a choice.

Well, I got out in '78 and moved back to Vallejo where I was roomates with my brother Tom. I had been home about a month when I took a call from Tom's National Guard CO. When he found out I was recently discharged, his drool was dripping from my phone. So he tries to talk me into joining the Guard. I told him that:

1. Six years Active duty was enough for anyone's lifetime.

2. I didn't really see how his Transportation and Service Battalion could effectively use my skills in anti-submarine warfare.

3.I assured him that if he DID find a submarine and he didn't know what to do with it, give me a call. I'd take care of it for him gratis.

jkun17--not all 18 yo's are 'adults'. I've rodeoed for going on 35 years, and I've seen parents let mentally disabled 'men' try to bullride. It's no different than the military, in fact the injury rate is higher, since it's only 8 seconds. The recruiters love to get their sleazy hands on 18 yo's, because they are adults, and the parents cannot do a damn thing. It is not a decision to be taken lightly, especially now. Just MO.

So we should baby him forever? Wait until he makes a decision we agree with but short of that fight everything? Why don't we cover him in bubble wrap while we're at it -- he may bump into something with sharp corners.

Let the recruiters get their "sleazy hands" on him. If he's not clever enough to look up things on his own he deserves whatever rock they put him on. It's not like information isn't out there; it's not like he doesn't know there's a war where people are dying. If he makes a wrong decision it's his fault; yes people will be affected, I won't deny that, but it's his choice to make. You can't deny someone their ability to choose just because you disagree when the consequences risk only the life and limb of said individual. (Yes I know he will likely kill people, but that's what soldiers do.)

Jkun17--Really? You're serious? Soldiers kill because that's what they do? No shit sherlock, have you read my signature? I think I know way more than you do. Where did you serve? When? What branch? What makes your RW brain convince you that you know it all? So why have education, if we can just let everybody learn as they go? Why not let everybody run amok for their entire lives? You make no sense, say hi to Rush, if he'll answer your call, which I doubt. You never served, and I know it, so you are a coward in my mind. Prove me wrong.

Young people make stupid choices - that's no reason to give up on them. It's in fact, why we don't.

Take it from someone that is a few cans short a 6 pack. I did not want anything to do with the military, I was forced into it. Since then I have been seconds away from blowing a refinery off of the planet, stood 15 stories in the air on a 10 foot ladder on the arm of a rocket platform with its legs right next to the edge installing hydraulic tubing, on the Sands Venetian in the middle of summer on the roof in about 125-130 degree heat welding, in the middle of the Nevada desert, Mohave desert, with welding leathers in the summer, I think I have a problem. But I do know that I do not want to be shot at, so I think I might be better off than some.

There's a difference between giving up on a person and letting them make a decision.

Sure...but this thread is about helping a kid avoid making a stupid decision.

I went into the Army in 1979, but I'd been in the Delayed Entry Program for 11 months before actually going active - it counted towards my inactive reserve time after my ETS date. My folks weren't keen on me joining but my mother signed the paperwork letting me enlist in the DEP when I was still only 17. I was very keen on enlisting because I wanted to go and live in Germany for awhile; which I did.

The happiest day of life was the day my active duty ended. When I went to college shortly afterwards, I was probably better prepared than if I hadn't been in the Army, but in many ways that was 3 years of my life I consider, on balance, to be wasted. Would I have wasted those years anyway? Hard to say. I may have gone to college sooner, graduated sooner, got a better job sooner - the economy hit the skids after I got out; even my folks admitted I might have been better off reenlisting.

My advice is let him go if you can't convince him otherwise. Do, however, take him to a VA hospital and show him that war fucks people up. I was lucky that there was no war on. Anyone who wants to join Bush's military needs to see the consequences of Bush's war first. If he still wants to go, let him.

Oh no, I'm a coward in your mind, I'm going to cry to my mom.

Firstly, I'm not right wing; never have been never will be. What I am is someone who thinks other people are capable of making decisions about their lives. I'm pro-choice, pro-psychoactive drugs, pro-assisted suicide among other things because most people, believe it or not, are capable of making difficult choices. We shouldn't child-proof the planet because some idiots fall through. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm your polar opposite, I would have thought that would make sense to a self professed liberal who supposedly is a member of the open tent -- I guess I expected too much.

Second, I don't understand you. You agree with me that soldiers kill (and I assume they still do, my RW brain [sic] isn't so sure) -- then berate me for it.

Thirdly, we have education so that people can make decisions on their own without being babied. Yes, let people run amock with their lives. We educate them so that they don't have to be wrapped in bubble tape just to make it from one day to the next. If they make a bad decision that's their fault for either not finding out enough or refusing to take the better path. It's not like the information is hidden; we hear about it every day, we're reminded of the people killed in this stupid, useless, morally questionable war every single day, it's a major issue in the election we're having RIGHT NOW.

I posit that he knows enough to make an informed decision: we are in a war, people are dying in that war. If that is not enough to sway a person away from the Army or at least into a less direct branch, nothing will.

The desire to belong is the driving thing I see, that's the foundation of all basic training. Try this option on for size ROTC college degree with no commitment (unless he's scholarshiped all four years ) until year three. It would be at LEAST four years to commission, then branch school. He could build the group ties (I still miss the cadet corps I resigned from to enlist when I screwed my financial aid up). If he is a rarin to serve in combat arms as it seems he's likley to be commissioned in quartermaster crops. Two guys I knew both went national guard 13 bravo to pay for school, one majored in Russian the other in Cartography, the Russian amajor won a scholarship and left the guard other guy did four years enlisted when commision papers came the guy with degree in Russian was sent to Benning for infantry officer-the guy with four years dropping rounds was sent to intelligence go figure

What more is there to tell him?

Premise 1: We're in a war
Premise 2: Armies go to war
Premise 3: Soldiers die in war

I really don't see what other piece of information is necessary to make him decide against it. All of that is common knowledge, all of that information is readily available everywhere. If "you'll probably die" isn't enough of a deterrent, nothing else will be.

I outlined what more there is to tell him. Just because you don't see the other guy's point of view doesn't mean there isn't one.



How about: Your death will be arbitrary and meaningless...nobody will know, it won't help anyone.

For many of us, death isn't a good enough threat. There is meaning beyond our own individual lives. To speak to a soldier, one must recognize this.

Who's to tell him his death won't have meaning. Maybe to him it will then what does it matter? Of course when he reaches the great oblivion beyond it won't matter to him.

Still doesn't change that the decision is about him. If he wants to go despite all the available information let him.

Premise 1: False. The US is not in a state of war.

Maybe this, maybe that. The point is - we can't assume.

Oh ok, since we're not in a war I guess there's no problem then.

Tell him soldiers are LAB RATS for Pharma.

Explain to him the NWO doesn't want young men, who know how to use a gun, to survive the tour. The last thing they really want is for savvy soldiers to come home to a 2nd Amendment still intact.

And even if they did survive it, but injured with a lifelong disability, there won't be any money to compensate. The USA is bankrupt. Buh bye Veterans Benefits.

Tell him Depleted Uranium seems to be bipartisan.
(remember, Wesley Clark ordered its used in Serbia).

Explain to him his Govt is owned by corporations, not values or principles. Constitution? Well, you'll have to volunteer to find it, to dust it off and read it for them.

And finally, there is no USA. Have him check UN Charter (1992), Articles 55, 56. That Treaty basically made our Constitutional Sovereignty null and void. Sooooo, he really wouldn't be a soldier for the USA...instead he would be a soldier for the NWO.

I only read the first post and skipped to here so I'm not sure if anyone suggested this. Ask!!! him if he'll go and talk to a Coast Guard recruter first. I was all primed to enlist with the Army after high school because a recruter told me they had a smoke jump school (which is what I wanted to do)
My dad next to tears let me drive down to the recruter's office to sign up.
I was early fortunatally.

Next door to the Army recruter's office was the USCG office. As I walked up to the Army's office there was a USCG recruter standing outside smoking a cigarette. As I walked up he asked me what I was doing, so I told him.

Long story short the USCG recruter told me the Army had no smoke jump school and the army was lying. The Army recruter came out and the two got into an arguement over me. I could instantly tell that I was being lied to so I left. Later I went back to talk to the USCG guy and was not pushed in any way. To get into the USCG is more like applying for a job rather than being pushed in.

I never became a smoke jumper. But I did become an EMT and later went to Paramedic school. Not to say that there's anything wrong with the Army, but tell this young lad that the average USCG service member makes quite a bit more money and usually has a much more fulfilling job after service than an Army boy.

Hopefully the USCG recruter can proporly explain that service with the USCG is extremely intense and that he will actually/literally be protecting our borders, not fighting for oil.
Hope this helps

Firstly-- This is discussion about a concerned relative who thinks that their nephew is not in the right place to make this decision, so they asked for advice, I gave it, as someone who has been there done that, you have done neither, so your advice is mute.

Secondly--- Marines are trained as killers first, and specialised Marines second. So we're all killers, but we might not have to, we all (Marines) hope.


Thirdly-- you said that we should just let everyone make their own decisions when they turn 18, why? What is so offensive about advice from someone who has been there? I've had the pleasure of having every adult in my family who has served helped me to make up my mind to serve, not every one has that, so what's wrong with that? You claim to be a liberal, but how do I know, and I don't have to take you at face value anymore than you have to take mine, but I think my posts, and the tone of them proves who I am. My nephew is 19, and I wouldn't want him to make a decision like this on his own for all the tea in China, he's simply way TOO immature. Not everyone matures the same, so therefore, not everyone has the capacity to do so. Recruiters love those kinds of people, and they almost never finish boot camp, so they go home feeling even more like a loser, and have even more trouble adjusting!!!!!!! Is that what you want? More people to treat with psychiatric care? I know I don't, I like to prevent a tail spin before it happens, not after, that's being a progressive.

Meh...

Baleted.

If you had bothered to read anything else I put in this thread (which I assume you haven't) you would have found that my first advice was to get a college degree so he could at least be an officer and have a better chance of living through it or joining the Air Force or Navy because he almost certainly won't die there. If you want to mute advice like that I cower to see what you wouldn't censor.


Again we agree, soldiers kill. I don't know why you have to bring this up again.


There's nothing wrong with that; but you need to remember it's his choice. He should be left to decide on his own because he's an adult. You must draw the line at what point you let a person take control of their lives and as far as I and the law am concerned 18 is the mark. If he fucks up, no one is responsible but him.


Good for you, but I'm not a contemporary liberal; I am a social libertarian and an economic socialist. People should be left to make their own decisions and take responsibility for their lives (whether it's to have an abortion, take drugs or sell themselves to the military); but there should be a social safety net for those who fall so they don't fall too far and maintain a passable minimum standard of living.


What makes you so sure you know better than he does what he needs or wants. He SHOULD have the right to make his own mistakes and live his own life. If he fucks up then by all means help him if you feel so compelled, but he's an adult and should be treated as such.

This kind of decision is like getting an abortion; it is a very critical and life-defining choice; but it is a choice for an individual to make and most are capable of doing it. If they aren't capable or aren't willing to learn enough to make an informed decision it's their fault. I've posited (for I think the third time now) that there is enough information to give any reasonable person sway to avoid the military; if he hasn't considered that it's his fault. Let him live his own damned life and if he gets hurt or dies it's his own damned fault.

So.... We the people should all just be passive in allowing recruiters to lie high school kids into a usless occupation for money just because there 18 and have the right.

Yes, he's 18 and has the right. Nobody here doubts that. This post is for a rightly worried "fancypantselitist".
Why are you scrambling this post with whether or not it's ok to talk him out of it. Perhaps that's not what your saying. But, really what are you saying and why is it importaint on this post. This gentleman is not reading this post. Fancypants is. Unless she gave up because of all this usless bickering.

As this point yes. If death doesn't deter a person, nothing will.

Until money is no longer important how can you criticize a person for taking a "useless job" much more any job for a pay check. It's not like he's going to be dealing drugs or smuggling.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if they're too stupid or too lazy to look up the reality on their own (and with google and wikipedia readily available there really is no excuse) they deserve whatever god forsaken rock they're put on.

I agree with jkun17. Some people have to learn lessons the hard way. You can't protect them from a path they are determined to follow. You can educate all you want, but the final decision is not yours. Hope and pray for the best, but if the nephew can't be dissuaded, you have to let him go.

I absolutly disagree. But you make valad points. Yet, you miss my point. This post is for someone who is asking for help. If your advice is to let it go. Then fine you made your point. I think these thoughts should move to another place though.

This discussion should consist of answers to the poster's questions. Not some absolute eff it.

Tell the kid to get a degree so at least he'll be an officer and probably won't die.

Short of that tell him to join the Air Force, Navy or Coast Guard because he almost definitely won't die there -- unless he's a Navy medic; if I remember right the Marines don't have their own medics so they borrow from the Navy; I could be mistaken.

Short of those let him make his own mistake and if he dies it's his own fault for not paying attention to the world.

Tell him he will be exposed to chemical/radiation toxic wastes or munitions which will make him very very sick. He will not be taken seriously when he becomes sick. His attempts to get help for his unknown illnesses will begin making him depressed... of course, his illness would also make him depressed.

The US Military is intentionally ignoring pleas for help by soldiers poisoned by Depleted Uranium. For years Vets have suffered from horrific diseases the govt will not acknowknowledge. They are unable to work, yet they are given no disability by our govt. Many times, the Vets Admin will classify the soldier as mentally ill...then throw them aside.

This makes it easier for the EVIL military administrations to disregard toxic poisoning and disabilities...and simply call the returning soldier a PTSD case.

When you hear about a soldier who has committed suicide due to PTSD, don't believe it. They are killing themselves because they are dying.