As some of you are aware, I live on a cooperative in the mountains of Santa Cruz. We have about 8 families here who all share the land in common. There are three kids (though two are adult age, NOW) who I have watched grow up and though I don't feel like a "Mom" to these kids, I feel like we are all family. Well, one of these kids is now 18 and has been mesmerized by an Army recruiter and now wants to join the Army hoping to become a Ranger. His recruiter has promised him that he would not go to Iraq, that he would be in Afghanistan.... ya.... right!

Everyone on the ranch is upset. We are all against this decision of his, and I daresay this might be partially a rebellion against his family because they've been liberal hippy types (as are all of us). He's also always been fascinated with weapons, swords, stuff like that since a small child, and also has the attitude of a "Paladin" defending the helpless from the powerful. He even goes so far as to live trap rats rather than kill them. He's a bright kid, very physically fit. This is why him deciding to do this completely frustrates everyone here, especially his parents.

Any advice on how to get him to at least WAIT until Obama is in office before making a decision that could destroy his life?

TIA....

very concerned....

I would find a "need" for him at home...something that only he can do, a place only he can fill....reminds me of my nephew, pull out all the stops...talk to him about how it effects the family if he comes back severely injured, mentally unstable or dead...pull out ALL the stops...if all else fails I have a picture of what parents look like when they bury their child...from my family.

If he enlists, he is property of the regime. They can do to him whatever they want. There are no promises. They can make him cannon fodder if that is their choice.

Advice: I would take him to visit with your local Veterans For Peace group. He can talk, all on his own, to REAL soldiers (not recruiters) and learn what it's REALLY about.

I wish he could visit my 'Nam veteran friend Dennis, who is missing body parts and slowly dying of Agent Orange exposure. I wish he could visit my older cousin who has terrible PTSD and lives on a Mennonite Commune in remote Montana. I am CERTAIN that neither of these people would recommend enlistment under the current regime.

I would ask him what it was that the recruiter said that made up his mind. They will say anything to get an enlistee, they make car salesmen look virtuous. They also have no say in where he will go, it's all a lie. It depends on his MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) where he will go, if he is 0311, he's going to Iraq or Afghanistan, either way, he will be in the shit, PERIOD. If he's 0341, same deal. With a high school education, and from a small town, he's 0311, unless he has experience working on something different, like cars, then he's motor T, still subject to the war zone. Tell him this, ask him if he's finished with living the way he wants. Ask him if he likes being sent somewhere where he might get maimed or worse, because of a crooked government. My recruiter was really cool, but he lied, and thereafter was not. We welcomed him into our home, and he used me, and I went to him!!! He didn't come to me, I went to his office, and told him I want in, so he saw a 20 year old volunteer, a gift to him. I was too young to realize how important numbers are to these guys, well I know now. I wouldn't enlist unless I got the same benies (Benefits) as my dad, and that ain't happening nowadays. Contact Ishmael, he knows way more than me.

My nephew also joined up in December of last year to become an Army Ranger. Both of his parents fought in Gulf War I and his father had just gotten back from Iraq when he enlisted. Both parents were adamantly against him enlisting, but have since come around to support their son. His father was absent for most of his life, I think he chose this path as a means to bond with his father. The good news is that it takes a long time to be a Ranger. There is basic.... then parajumping school.... then ranger school. My nephew has been in training for over 8 months already and is not even close to seeing combat. The thing I found most perplexing is that he had a car accident a couple of years ago and killed his best friend. I can't understand why he would sign up to kill people when he knows first hand how hard it is to be responsible for someone's death. His father is now retired from the military, but went back to Iraq as an independent contractor. It's all for the MONEY.

Why the army specifically? There are alternative services. Right now, if I were young and considering joining the military I'd join the Coast Guard. It's not wholly "clean" so to speak, but better than a purely war role like the other 4 services.

If you think about it, patrolling the coastal waters of the US and monitoring maritime activities has a more direct "Defending the US from terrorists" role than going out and killing innocent civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Tell him to join the Navy or Air Force. At least there he won't die.

edit: As a fresh college graduate who is having trouble finding a job, the military isn't looking all that bad of a choice.

Stoon, great point, the Coast Guard is a great place to go, very laid back in military terms, I was in the Marines, so it's like night and day, but one still reaps the benefits, except they're not there.

KM-- Kudos to your nephew for signing, it just seems to be for all the wrong reasons. I trained with the Rangers and they are hard core, problem is, they go first, just like Marine Recon. You're right, trianing for elite forces takes a lot of time, and then they are sent into the worst places imaginable. Honorable, yes. Sensible, not so much. There is no draft, nor an incentive to join these forces, only bragging rights, and they don't pay the bills, so after, they go private...get it? Hang tough, Tap.

My husband and I tried so hard to change his mind. We offered him a free place to stay in Colorado so he could go to college out here. He thought about it really hard, but decided against it. Besides bonding with his father, I think he also did it for the "brotherhood" factor. After the car accident, he had to be home schooled because of the taunting he received from other kids. The kids called him a murderer and a killer. He is just looking for a place to belong I think and the "family" that the military offers is enticing to young awkward kids who don't have a lot of friends.

take him here


http://www1.va.gov/directory/guide/facilit...52&dnum=All

or here

http://www1.va.gov/directory/guide/facilit...04&dnum=All


and let him visit and see up close wounded vets...may wanna contact them first to get details

let him see what he could be in for...

The first thing to know is, recruiters lie through their teeth. My sister went with my nephew to the Marine recruiter. He tried running his BS past her but she wasn't some wide eyed kid with visions of glory. Ultimately she caught him in a lie and my nephew saw the light.

I recommend one or both of his parents accompany him to visit the recruiter. They aren't hard to jam up when they are up against a reasonable adult instead of a naive kid.

What really screws them up is when you get them to make a bunch of promises and then ask them to put them in writing. Then see how many the try to weasel out of.

Good Luck

Recruiters don't have to do a lot to snow most warriors. From this, I'm going to guess that you might not feel the call to war too keenly and might not understand a natural warrior's mind.

I have a belief that some men, and possibly women, are biologicaly driven to be warriors. You know it the way you know if you are gay or strait. I have never questioned - my entire life - that war was my calling - when I was young this was a stronger drive than sex. It is a very misunderstood aspect of the human condition in our culture and we lose to this drive due to a lack of understanding. It is a natural and healthy human drive, like sex, that when driven underground produces terrible depravities like street gangs and wars. To understand me, you must first attempt to suspend the notion that you understand the call to war or what war means to one who is called.

Until you make yourself understand the call to war, you will not be able to talk to this kid.

The war drive does not mean:

• Desire for pain, humiliation, or death of others
• Bravado
• Bravery or cowardice
• a lack of morality
• a lack of value for human life

The war drive is incited by strong feelings about

• An internal struggle that can not be brought to peace in a socially acceptable way
• A profound an continual heightened self awareness
• An intimacy with mortality
• Social ostracism / failure to integrate
• A need to conquer externally what one can not defeat internally
• A drive to suspend individual will and socially conform in action and duty
• An unfulfilled need for "brotherhood" and a place of belonging
• A need to prove ones self through domination of others - preferably a culturally foreign, morally inferior group.
• A drive to experience hardship and work for a meaningful purpose
• A need for a clear path to manhood
• A niggling sense that there just might be too many people
• A sense that ones self lacks and requires discipline from a clear heirarchy

The war drive is only soothed by providing it outlets and encouraging exploration of it. Some ways to do this:

• Hunting <-- this could be the evolutionary purpose of war blood.
• Group athletics <-- how to say this nicely...it works for the dumb ones?
• Martial arts <-- Japanese sword arts are entirely about culminating and controlling what they call the "martial spirit". This works VERY well for me.
• Questing <-- For example a Father Quest is increasingly common in these days of missing men in the lives of boys. When I wasn't able to join the marines, I went to live with my father for a year to find out who he was.
• Music <-- an electric guitar and a martial stack and a place to scream it out and regiment harsh metal rhythms is a great way to explore and express war drives and blood lust. Our cultural persecution of heavy metal is a crime against all young men and comes at a despicable loss to society.
• Escape <-- the war driven feels crowded most of the time. Escape from a bad social situation often reduces the urgency of the rage.
• Education <-- The war driven is often completely ignorant about their drives, their nature, and the implications for society that war has. They cling to moral simplicity and willfull ignorance to justify their indominible senses. I have yet to really recognize this...for me, the knowlege that cvilians always bear the greatest casualties in every war has been a severely mitigating factor. To know the number of hot teenage girls who have been killed in Iraq outnumbers alQueda by 3:1 could do a lot.
• Think of your own...I still barely have my drive for war in check. I am preoccupied by imaginings of an invasion by another sovereign in this country where my real tallents could be put to use.

In the dreams of a young war-blood are the moments of purity where steel guided by agile finger tips extends from ones hand as a forgotten appendage - when one's entire body is a machine, designed and maintained for the sole purpose of the moment.
He feels that there is a more dire and urgent calling away from the indignities of small living - to a place of trial, hardship, and cold bloody truths that many young men are biologically driven to seek out. This call is in the blood and it can turn the sweetest kids on earth cold as ice when they join a unit.

Do your best with this info, I hope it helps.

Tough call, you may not like the advice based on experience I have to offer though. I filled out an application one time, through Reader's Digest, to get an electronics education through the Air Force. When the Recruiters knock at our door about 2 months later, mom had to tell them I was only 10 years old.

So fast forward some 10 years later when my nephew came to see Uncle So and So. He said to me, I have been out of highschool for a few years, being a bar bouncer and other stuff but now I am thinking about joining the Air Force. He then told me dad, my brother, and Pap, my father, told him not to sign up. I said to him well you are 20 now, you got your own path, I wish you well either way.

He is going to retire from the Airforce soon. His skill is a Heavy Equipment Operator. He was one of the first into Bosnia clearing snow off the Airports for our plane involved during incursions there. When HRC misspoke (cough-cough) I had some insider knoweledge about snipers in that area, wink-wink.

We are very proud of him today. Yea, he suffered a divorce but got remarried. he has seen the world and learned a skill besides beer drinking. But he and his new wife went on a beer drinking tour of Germany for their honeymoon. I hope that he gets home soon, I got some land for him to clear. I am not very good at running a Dozer, maybe he can teach me a few tricks.

My son has his own path too even though his maternal grandfather is a real pain in the ass.

KM--Before I went in I worked as a horse wrangler for a private summer camp. Well one day I got fired for giving a camper my piece of mind, (He was a jerk) Anyway, that evening, my freinds and I decided to go to town to unwind, town was an hour away. I asked them to take me back 1/2 way to town, and they did, then they let another counselor take my place. They all died. They drove into lake Superior off of a ramp that had no signage, other people had died there too, and the town did NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I joined up because I felt like such a failure, I was full of guilt, shame, and other crap. I wanted to bring honor to my self, so I enlisted. It did not bring them back, but the nightmares continue. I still don't know how to honor them, I never will. I do have one hell of a row to hoe...

Another thing I like about the Coast Guard is their system of training. Most recruits are recruited as general seamen. After recruit training they go to their first posting, where they general tasks around the ship, dabbling in all the various trades. After almost a year they sit down with a counselor and based on what they were good at and they liked then a trade is assigned and they go to A-School.

I wish I had known about that 20 some years ago when I didn't know what I liked and didn't know what to do with my life.

If the lad is gung ho about "protecting people" then there are Coast Guard jobs that he'd probably like. There's AVIATION SURVIVAL TECHNICIAN which rescue people. You said he likes guns. There's GUNNER'S MATE which work with everything from pistols, rifles and machine guns, to 76mm weapons systems.

Ok, I'm back from perusing the Coast Guard recruiting site

Good advice.

If that doesn't do it, if there is a VA hospital or rehab center reasonably near, take him to visit some maimed Iraq vets. Let him get a look at reality and hear what those unfortunates have to say about his ambition.

lol recruiter promises

They're worth nothing. They have no control over where you go or what you do. Their job is to get you to sign on the dotted line, they'll promise you the moon if it gets you in.

I would worry that your nephew is actually trying to punish himself for that accident by joining the military. He could have visions of being a hero, but I'd worry those visions included getting killed and thereby redeeming himself for "killing" his friend in that accident.

Hopefully he won't get anywhere until after we've had a change in the White House and congress. War isn't the best place to work out your guilt issues.

Tell him to at least get a college degree. Get one from a diploma mill if you have to. At least then he'll be an officer and his chances of dying drop exponentially.

Maybe you could show him some pictures of war dead and wounded only to give him a bit of reality of what war really is about? If he still wants to go have him join the NAVY. He might be a little safer on the ship.

I will bet money that doesn't interest the kid...betcha he wants combat.

Then he can go die. Anyone with a death wish should have their dreams come true. We don't need people like that.

I am one like that. I think my drive, focused usefully, is a social necessity.

Death is far from the worst thing.

A life of nothingness compares poorly to a death with great meaning.

I would gladly give my life for my loved ones. There's no reason to revile those who are directed to an initiative of self sacrifice. Combat doesn't have to mean what it does in our age.

Once, people looked on homosexuality as a deep perversion sought in public bathrooms.

This was because we repressed our homosexuals and sexuality in general.

(I do not think the titillation on TV or our porn industry passes for sexuality, but is further evidence of repression)

So also do we misuse our heroes in vain efforts to perpetrate violence against foreign people - out of frustration for our lack of social accommodation for the martial spirit. I honestly think attitudes like what you expressed in this specific example, are part of that problem. "kill the war mongers" is a non sequiter. Love is the only thing that can kill war and tame the warring mind. The martial path to love is completely under-represented in our culture.

If he must join the service and you want to make SURE he stays out of combat, advise him to join the Navy and the submarine service. That's going to be most safe position he can get in. Whatever they tell him, make sure ALL the schools and as much of the duty stations are spelled out IN WRITING in his enlistment contract. Stress to him that there isn't much call for riflemen or infantrymen in the corporate world but something like electronics or communications equipment can lead to better jobs post-service. And of the technical schools, Navy has the best with the Air Farce as second. If you CAN talk him out of it, I agree with Hamoth. Offer to apprentice him to a good Kendo teacher instead. All young men think they're immortal so don't talk about him dying, but you might look for funerals of Iraqi service members to attend and offer condolences to the families. Let them tell your son how THEY feel about their children's service. Remind them that Blackwater pays their thugs 5-10 times his salary for doing the same thing, and Blackwater guys don't get arrested for war crimes.

If, after all this, you still can't change his mind, go with him to the recruiters, make sure all his schools and bonuses are in writing, review the contract with an attorney to ensure his rights to sue in civil court. I joined in 1972 and was promised a bonus for a two-year extension like 30,000 other sailors. Then the Navy reneged on the deal so we sued their asses and won. Finally, remember the Bill Mauldin line on my sig:




Finally, if all he wants to be is a badass, Tell him to join the submarine service as a Ballistic Fire Control Technician. There, his job will be maintaining Trident missles and nuclear warheads, so he'll be the baddest mo-fo on the planet and won't need to get his ass shot off.

I didn't mean it as an insult or anything. If one really finds some glory in death (and I don't really see how anyone could) go ahead.

It's important that he understand that the recruiter can say anything he wants, and that the recruiter has no authority to say what training he will get. There is no enforcable contract. He will be put where he's needed, and that's on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan. From what you say about his personality, he won't test out for Ranger school. If he wants choices in the military, he needs to go to college first so he can enter as an officer. However, it doesn't sound like he's suited for the military. Maybe Psychology...then he can work for the VA helping soldiers. Have what I call a circular conversation with him, what kind of work do you want to do in broad terms, what type work environment do you want, what do you want to help people do, what people do you want to help...just help him talk and think through what he wants. Present these questions and leave him to answer them for himself. He's a teenager, don't corner him.
Doing a lot of work with Habitat for Humanity this summer might be something he would enjoy. And he would learn a lot of skills and be exposed to like-minded people. Encourage him to take some time and not make a snap decision.

Have him read this article by Kathie Dobie. AWOL in America

The attrition rate for prospective bubble heads is quite high...something like 1 in 50 IIRC.

As difficult as it may be, discuss with him his reasons, go over your concerns, and if he still wishes to go, give him all the support you can give him. Military Service for your country remains honorable, and I respect anyone who makes such a difficult decision, especially during times of conflict. I feel deep compasion for the family which will endure intense worry, but his love for his country must be so deep, please respect his decision and support him, however painful it may be for you.

Thank you.

The problem is that service in this war isn't quite the glory it is billed as...yet it is easy for the warriors among us to be mislead on this point.

Explain that concept to his family and those who love him. Try telling that to anyone who loves someone who either wishes, has tried and failed or tried and succeeded in committing suicide.

That don't fly.

If HE wants to die, HE has the right to. It's HIS life and HIS decision.

If he wants so badly to die on some god forsaken country in some god forsaken war, let him.

It's not like he doesn't know we're at war; it's not like he doesn't know people are dying there; it's not like he doesn't know he can be safer in the Navy or Air Force. That's all public knowledge and basic logic. It's not my fault or your fault or his family's fault he's decided to throw himself into harm. It's HIS choice to make.

The military life sucks! It is also a bitch to survive in our economic times. If you like having no freedom, being told what to do, when to do it, being called anything from a loser to a maggot while enduring intense pain for conditioning. They will do their best to break you and rebuild you. When you cry, they will make it even tougher. No mercy, if you are the weakest link in your company, you can expect torment and help. It is a total mind Phuuk. You eventually have a new family to work with and care for very much. You may watch them all die. If you like pain and honor, you will find it.

If you don't like your boss, TOUGH! You are stuck with who ever it is. If you get sea sick, don't join the Navy. The Coast Guard has patrol boats that pan the coast. They put a 50 on the bow and look for boats to shoot at. You will comply.

If you wish to kill, if you wish to have no rights, if you wish to be the property of the United States Government to be used at will, then be the property of who ever is in charge of you. It is not fun, its a job that should only be used to secure the peace and prosperity of the United States and its allies.

If we ever get another shrub to send men to die, then die you will.

Not sure how this is different from any other job I've had.
Minus the killing part...

If we can stop him from dying then it does become our responsibility. If this nation took mental health care more seriously than it currently does, we wouldn't have this kind of problem. This kid would be getting the help he so obviously needs. THEN after getting some help if he was still determined there would be nothing anyone could do. But from what I've seen, outside of immediate family, no one has done anything for the boy yet!

You've written him off without even trying to help him. That was so noble of you!

I'm trying, Rottmom.

First of all...recruiters don't decide where the recruit will be stationed.

Secondly, try to promote another military branch, like the Air Force.

Also, maybe show him some photos of what's really going on in Iraq. Photos of car bombings, injured Iraqi civilian and American soldiers might help.

If he has to join the service by all means have him avoid the Army and the Marines, Navy and Air Force are just much safer bets. Compromise with him by saying you will fully support either of those, he may do so to avoid dissapointing you all.

Better yet, have him go here .... http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm and check out the Peace Corps, he can travel, make a huge impact in people's lives, and after he is done if he still wants to join the armed services you can fully support that, he may just want to leave and see the world.

The merchant marines and the coast guard are also excellent alternatives for a young person with wanderlust.

No one joins the military to get killed so stress schools and post-service employment. I went into sonar because of an interest in oceanography and the whaling aspect. I learned electronics which provided me a good living in telecommunications for most of the next 30 years. If his predeliction is still towards combat arms, stress heavy ordnancelike missles. They are electronically complex so he learns valuable skills while also being out of small infantry unit combat. The other valuable intangible of an ordnance background is the knowledge that he will TRULY be the baddest mo-fo on the block.
Then remind him that the Navy and Air Force have the best technical schools and that, no matter what your MOS is in the Army or Marines, EVERYONE is in the infantry.

Like I said, Ishmael is the go to guy, thanks Ish!

My knowledge on this is second hand since I was 91B, so maybe Tap will be more informative. But My understanding is that you don't sign up to be a Ranger, you sign up for regular infantry and then do the best you can along the way to make your desire to be nominated know. But at any point if you don't rise to the top and prove yourself worthy you can end up as regular infantry and without the promised Ranger tabs the recruiters like to wave around in front of you. Doesn't mean he can't do it, but it might be useful to clear up the possible confusion that the Army will "make him" a Ranger and replace it with the reality that they will present the opportunity to become one and if he falls short he may end up in a job he doesn't want. So it's probably better if he must enlist to follow Ishmael's advice and choose an MOS that has career and life building potential to it.

Also, how are his ASVAB scores (or whatever equivalent they are using nowadays)?. If he has scored low the recruiters may be promising him Ranger because they don't have any more lucrative careers to tempt him with and are only after another warm body for regular infantry. This could be another warning about what I mentioned above, because Rangers not only have to become physically fit and adept at fighting skills, they have to be able to absorb a great deal of other training. If his test scores do not indicate someone who can take a technically demanding MOS than he will probably have an especially difficult time qualifying to be a Ranger.

The latest deal with the military is, they keep being sent back with no end in sight. When will the insanity stop? How many tours are these men of ours on now?

In the USMC your performance in boot camp will decide your fate in elite units, for instance if you graduate as the guide, you get any duty you want, if your a sqaud leader you'll have to be really good in your school. For instance, I was a squad leader, I got a meritorious promotion to lance corporal from boot camp, I went to ITS Infantry Training School, now called SOI, school of infantry, when I graduated as a Squad leader with all perfect practical knowledge scores, and top physical scores, I was offered Recon school, at Talega, Camp Pendleton, so I took it. That's how it's done, no one gets to be a ranger because they want to be one, it's not a choice, it's an honor, to be earned.

Hey Tap, so you were guideon, at least you got into the chow hall ahead of everyone. I was the smallest so I was last everytime.

No I miss typed, I was a squad leader, but my guide was a prick and an idiot, it was clearly racism, we only had one white DI. It was obvious to all of us, the guy couldn't run, he only did the minimum of pull ups, I did 88, set the record, Sorry to brag, I had to. I also beat him out on prac... Whatever, he went into the MP's and I heard he flunked out, ha ha ha...Security Guard is what he was.

Well, here was my enlistment experience from 1972. The war was winding down, it was the last year of the draft and my # was 5. I came out of high school with a 3.6 average in a hard science and math curriculum(up to Physics and Calculus). I was interested in Oceanography and had been accepted at Long Beach State to major in Marine Sciences. But being poor, the only scholarships I could get were ROTC scholarships so the idea of four years as a paramilitary geek and then six as an officer and gentleman by an act of Congress was too much time. I also was looking at getting my merchant seaman's documents after discharge and shipping as a radio officer on merchant vessels. So the Navy was really MY only choice.

I took the AFQTS test at the recruiters and aced it. So they gave me another one and I aced that one too. They figured they had a live one so they sent me into San Francisco to take the Basic Battery of tests they gave everybody else in bootcamp. I had a GCT/ARI of like 135 or so and had aced the pitch variation test, so I was a sonarman born and bred. Ironically I had picked Ocean Systems tech as a second choice and it turned out IT was the actual rate that most grounded you in Oceanography, but the rate was so classified and new, no one had any real info. Besides, at the time, they needed tin-can sonarmen. So I had to sign for six years active duty, but got all my schools guaranteed plus Promotion to E-4(we called it IPO or Instant Petty Officer) and a cash bonus of around 5 Grand when I signed my two-year extension. The bonus I later had to sue for but that's a different story. As a result of my choice, I was able to semi-circumnavigate the globe in both directions or, as I like to call it, Going Around The World The Hard Way. I visited 35 different countries on 4 continents and learned how to get my face slapped in 17 different languages. I hunted the great steel whales and worked on and fired big things that go boom.

My schools in the military directly led to my employment and career in Telecommunications which has provided a decent enough living for me for the past 30 years.

Way to go, I really don't like people who think race is everything. They are very limited in their thought processes.

Anyway, I was thinking about that trip on the escort, I remember waking up and going to the chow hall. I was sitting with my eggs when they shot the 5 inch off. All of this gray paint fell from the over head into my chow. I looked at my pals and said, Hey, Navy flavored! One of them had what he was drinking come out his nose. I picked up the Tabasco and asked, "Anyone for red lead?" I guess you had to be there.

As a qualifed Sonar Painter and graduate of Surface Preparation and Preservation School during my tenure as Damage Control Petty Officer, I MUST remind you not to forget the yellow bottle of Zinc Chromate. Remember, you can alway wash it down with a refreshing glass of thirst-quenching and delicious...(wait for it)...Big Juice. The cherry bug juice mix would take corrosion off brass as I learned cleaning the forward head as Col. Urinal and Capt. Commode. So Glimmer really IS a Floor Wax and a dessert Topping. On the Schofield, the hawse-pipe for the 5-inch chain hoist went right over my rack which made sleeping through NGFS a new experience.

I am still laughing my ass off.

I would like to thank the Navy for teaching me to swim with my hands and feet tied, license to operate Brasso, a deck crawler, I HATE NON SKID!