Obama is looking at the issues, dealing with them as they are brought before him. He doesn't use a magic 8 ball, he uses law and logic. As more information comes in, he will have to deal with the new information. This is not flip flopping, it is reality. Same goal, same direction, just more information than before. We don't have the information and he is already acting upon it. That is why at times, I am concerned about what is going on, and so is Randi. This is what people do that use their brains. This is why Americans are considered to be the best, we think on our feet, we think for ourselves but not just for ourselves. Allow the man some freedom to use his brain. We will eventually catch up in a day or two.

You are obviously self censoring yourself. You seem to refuse to read entire articles, listen to Obama's own words and/or seek out information from his own website. You want this man to fail so badly that you are listening only to what you want to hear, cherry picking your facts and indulging in this mock selective outrage. Your not alone, there are others on this forum who are doing the same thing, post Hilliary's campaign.

None of the issues you mentioned have nothing to do with the larger problems of the country. The issues of how Obama finances his campaign, his position on guns or FISA will not put more food on American's dinner tables, lower their gas prices, get their kids free health care, etc.

Oh God. Are you for Nadar. Let me respond...

Nadar is sooooooooo 2000. Give me a break. I'm laffin', laffin', laffin'... And where did you pull those polling numbers from?

and he should be allowed to debate. Dem, Rep, green, lib, ..... The current system sucks. And no, I would not vote nader.

Give me a break. If you can navigate this message board, then you know how to post a god damn link. Now you are just lying. You just killed any bit of credibility you had remaining.

Time to put you on "ignore".

it would appear two members are asking you to provide links to prove your allegations in this post

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index...ost&p=67524

you appear to be stating these things as fact, if they are your opinion (that obama did these things) then you can state that also...

(the reason we push for links when statements of fact are alleged, is believe it or not, sometimes people come here and spread propaganda about someone for political reasons, the stuff usual turns out not to be true...your allegations appear not to be something you are making up just to cause trouble, you seem sincere in your concerns, but since they are allegations and some are asking for links, we tend to go that way...)

I concur.

From the great and sainted, Elton John:

It's sad, so sad
It's a sad, sad situation
And it's getting more and more absurd
It's sad, so sad
Why can't we talk it over
Oh it seems to me
That sorry seems to be the hardest word.

He also took some votes from said party so that pretty much moots your point... but don't let facts sidetrack your hate.

CNN...

Not only did he poll at 6% per CNN he polled two months in a row at 6% to prove it's not a fluke. How ya like dem apples?

Nader-Best Case Scenario (for him)

Enters the race, gets enough votes to hand win to McCain...

results: disastrous to our nation in so many ways you cant count, but at least Nader got to be on tv for a while...
and that is all that matters

Great cut paste of DNC talking points. Basically what you are advocating is thwarting democracy by wishing or hoping that choices are eliminated so that people vote more the way you'd like them to. Ever consider that I have no desire to vote the way you want me to?

Here's five quick reason's why I choose Nader over who you wish to attempt to force people to vote for:

Telecom immunity.
Gun control.
Death penalty.
Campaign finance.
Faith-based funding.

...and here's a boatload more issues why.

Speaking of Telecom Immunity, today is the vote where Obama will betray the populace by giving telecom companies immunity. He can spin all he wants but his vote will be just that.

Nader's comments this morning on it in audio.

Is there a source for this? I realized that I'm not aware of just what he did promise originally.

All of which will be worse with mcCain.

Correction... the SAME as McCain. Both will vote FOR telecom immunity today... if McCain actually shows up to vote.

No. Worse.

The difference is that McCain wants criminal immunity, wants to expand the program. Obama is tolerating it in a bad political compromise.

Congratulations to your lesser of two evils then. Today we will get the same result regardless of which of the evils you support.

Also, I'm not up to date on McCain's position on expanding Bush's faith based funding... but I am on Obama's.

Again, that is not true - nor a fair characterization. Obama is fucking up - but "Evil"? Get real.




Yeah, that's not a slanted thing to say at all. Totally fair minded...

Enjoy McCain's national health care initiatives.

OK. I'm defensive when it comes to bashing Nader. I admit it. But I stand by what I said. Today both will vote the same on the telecom immunity bill. If you are going to say that they will push for different bills... as prez, they will vote on what's given to them. They can bully-pulpit all they want but its congress that sends them what they will pass or veto on. Just like today... they are given a bill that should be voted down, I look at how they are going to handle it and they will handle it the same wrong way. Choosing between them will become more and more the same choice every four years of lesser of two evils. I don't take that route and Dems constantly look for scapegoats on why their candidates consistently suck, (not saying obama sucks but Kerry was just aweful as was Gore's campaign). Instead of getting mad at Nader for pulling votes because he is spot-on in policies, those people should get mad at their candidates for losing bearing and pandering all over the spectrum rather than gaining respect for standing their ground.

This has already been proven false.

The "Maveric" stood by and refused to vote on the ammendment to strip the immunity portion of the bill. Obama voted to strip away immunity. It's a weak gesture to be sure - but so much weaker is McCain's.

Different action. I'm not referring to the amendment. I'm referring to the whole telecom immunity bill.

The "maverick" is a god-awful senator that unfortunately is mine, but the fact that they are in the same boat paddling in the same direction on this turns my stomach. Not the politically expedient token vote on the amendment but the vote on the Telecom Immunity bill itself.

the whole includes the parts.



But they are not...you have cherry picked some similarities. Where does McCain stand on Americorps? How about Torture? Health care? Foreign Diplomacy? Iran?

These two are not the same. If you really wanted Nader, you would have been working him up before now. If you wanted Nader to have a serious chance, the time to work that angle was in 04, 05, 06, and 07. Expecting him to catapult to the top at the end of the race is naive. Nader will not be president, you are just campaigning for McCain.

If you want valid third party candidates, you should be using your time to promote some senatorial and state candidates and help coordinate local efforts to expand a third parties power base. That's how real change is affected...not by ignoring political realities and using your vote to throw a tantrum.

If you want to pressure Obama, do it with $.
I would liked to have seen a group put together a money bump contingent on his standing up for the fourth amendment - or answering questions from Sam Cedar on the 4th amendment and Fisa.

That would have done something.

That makes no sense in the context of our conversation.



This thread is about one bill, one issue. McCain and Obama are the SAME on this bill with regards to how they vote today. If you want to pull a red herring and talk about other issues and how they are different, so be it and I'll even concede that they are different on some other issues, but this conversation is about this bill. With regards to this bill, the Telecom Immunity bill being voted on today you can spin or play Obama apologist all you want but it doesn't change the fact that on this bill... Bush = McCain = Obama.

btw... this isn't the end of the prez campaign, it's the beginning. That the two major parties are running non-stop eternal candidates is besides the point.

So what are you going to do about it besides insult people and bitch? BTW...taking small donations from millions of people makes it pretty much "public financing". You never liked Obama and you don't have to...vote McCain, I don't give a flying fuck...but quit insulting good people who chose differently than you. If a huge surge of public support makes Obama a "Rock Star" so be it...it's been a long long time since we've had a candidate that could turn the country on...deal with it.

Yay... speaking through emoticons ftl.

I don't think they are all the same as you conveniently took me out of context to point out. On this telecom immunity issue:

Bush = Yes
McCain = Yes
Obama = Yes
Nader = No

Just to clear up your misleading post.

Just to clear UP yours

Wow! Nader voted today?

Oh yeah and Mcain wasn't present


So your going to spew post after post about how there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans YAWN same old Nader talking points

By the way what did he mean when he said Barack was talking "white" Has Ralph taken up racism these days too?

Try harder.



How convenient. It's not about anything that shadows your remarks and only is about things that you decide it is. You say they will vote the same on this bill - Obama showed up to vote...McCain did not. Obama voted to strip immunity from THIS BILL, mcCain did not. There is a clear difference even on this one bill, one issue. McCain actively seeks and promotes telecom immunity - Obama has spoken out against it repeatedly. These are not the same positions.



What a verbal pretzel.



Obama's an eternal candidate?
WTF does that mean?

How could you possibly call this the beginning of the race?

appreciate the complement, but those are my words...

i dont know what the dnc talking points are, but as one who has lived on this planet and in this country long enough, I do know what the issues are.

Why does the former member lil_j keep coming to mind?

HA! Got 'im!

I didn't say they were the same. I said they are the same on this one issue. No need to make an hyperbole by misquoting me or taking me out of context.



Funny that you don't know what I have and haven't been doing up until now but claim to know that you do. The CPD (commission on presidential debates) isn't in charge of the September debate in New Orleans. Google/Youtube is. The CPD is run by former heads of the DNC and RNC specifically work to keep third party and independent candidates out... Illegally I might ad. The threshold to get into those debates is 10%. Nader is at 6% currently. If he gets into the debates, I'd wager that he'd be headed towards 20% after the debates and even higher after that.



You don't have a grasp of history I see. Read up on Abe Lincoln's third party rise and how other major issues such as women's suffrage and workers rights came into play. Btw... I'm not throwing a tantrum by not voting the way you want me to, I'm speaking with my vote for what I want. Something major party voters generally don't know about because they are busy voting based on what they don't want. Fear doesn't follow me into the booth.

Third parties gain locally from presidential runs. High profile position candidates bring the third party notoriety for the local office candidates. You wouldn't much have heard of the Green Party had Nader not run of prez on their ticket back in the day.

If it wasn't for Nader fucking up the 2000 election, Gore would have won and wouldn't even be talking about FISA!!!!!! It would have never happened to begin with and the whole country would even know what the hell FISA stands for, what it is, when it was first passed into law.... etc etc etc.

Because when you say "positions" then I know your not serious. Why bother dealing with flat out bald faced lies.

You are all over the place on this but I guess you just want me to respond to your Nader attack on his comment...

Nader was right. Personally I think he could've worded it so that people who take just headlines and run with it wouldn't be so misinformed on what was said.

No answer thanks

Randi to a degree I have to agree with JJ82 here. I won't stop listening because you are my Goddess, but this immunity for whatever reason is WRONG! It just says to corporate America go ahead and break the law we will get you out of it later. After all


WHAT WILL WE TELL THE CHILDREN after THE CONSTITUTION IS SHREDDED. Sorry we know we live in a totolitarian society, and we could have stopped it, but we didn't want the telecoms to have to pay for their wrongs.

RANDI WHAT WILL WE TELL THE CHILDREN?!

I'll pass and just play ignorant I guess.



So in one paragraph here you said that "McCain actively seeks and promotes telecom immunity" then said he didn't show up to vote for it. Basically you acknowledged that Obama let McCain do the legwork on a policy that he then voted for. He should thank McCain I guess.



If you say so. Don't know how to make it any more simple for you to understand so I guess thats just my short-coming for not being able to post clearly.



It means that this election is not the norm... it's ludicrous by the mere fact that both parties have been fronting candidates that have been running for president for two years now. Therefore, by reasonable standards and the fact that no conventions have taken place, it is in fact the beginning of the presidential race.

Don't freak too much. It's the party currently in power that tends to lose the most. As per a recent AP poll that shows the exact opposite of what Dems are always bashing Nader about:



Interesting how the numbers fall completely unlike how those telling you to fear Nader expect you to believe.

The above post of mine kind of shows you are mistaken about your earlier post.

Bob Barr is also polling at 6% so that kind of offsets Nader, doesn't it?

Released: July 06, 2008

Zogby Poll: Building Mo-bama! Democrat Leads McCain in Electoral College Tally, 273-160

The Democrat also leads 44% to 38% in the nationwide horserace test as Libertarian Bob Barr wins 6%

UTICA, New York – As the race for President passes the Independence Day holiday and heads toward the dog days of summer, Sen. Barack Obama holds a 44% to 38% lead over Sen. John McCain in the horserace contest, but also leads by a substantial margin in a state-by-state Electoral College tally, a new Zogby Interactive poll shows.

The extensive national poll of of 46,274 likely voters also shows Libertarian candidate and former Congressman Bob Barr wins 6% support, eating into McCain’s needed conservative base of support.

The online survey was conducted from June 11-30, 2008. It carries a margin of error of 0.5 percentage points. After nearly a decade in development, the Zogby Interactive survey on a state level was remarkably accurate in the 2006 midterm elections. In 18 U.S. Senate elections polled two years ago, the Zogby online survey correctly identified the winner of 17 of 18 races, and in the 18th race – in Missouri, it was still within the margin of error, though it had Republican Jim Talent winning (he was defeated narrowly by Democrat Claire McCaskill).

Zogby’s Electoral College Count


7-7-2008

Obama 273


McCain 160


Undecided 105




This latest extensive survey of all 50 states reveals that while Obama holds a narrow lead in the national preference test, he holds a substantial advantage right now in the Electoral College. Using this survey - and an average of other public state polls in certain states to corroborate the Zogby results – Zogby calculates that Obama leads McCain, 273-160. A total of 11 states with 105 electoral votes are within the margin of error and therefore too close to call. A candidate needs 270 to be elected President.

Neither Obama nor McCain breaks a 50% favorable rating. Obama is viewed as very or somewhat favorable by 49.7%. For McCain, that number is 43.2%.

Pollster John Zogby: “Obama is in the driver’s seat right now, especially where it really counts - in the electoral votes. Bob Barr could really hurt McCain’s chances. McCain can’t afford the level of slippage to Barr we found among conservatives in this polling. While there has been plenty of talk about Obama’s recent emphasis on his centrist positions, he can get away with it during these dog days of the campaign as McCain finds himself still trying to shore up the conservative base. McCain will have to move to the center because right now Obama is clobbering him among independents. But there is the rub for McCain: Bob Barr has some juice among conservatives and is hurting him in several states. ”

Bob Barr receives the support of 7% of voters who identify themselves as conservative or very conservative voters. Barr gets 43% of libertarians and 11% of independents. McCain’s support among conservatives is 74%. On the left, Ralph Nader gets less than 2% nationally.

Obama has the support of 83% of Democrats, while McCain gets 75% of Republicans.

Independents break 39% for Obama, compared with 31% who support McCain.

For white voters, race doesn’t appear to be playing a significant factor. McCain leads Obama, 43%-39%, with Barr at 6%. Among black voters, Obama wins the vast majority of support.

For a complete methodological statement on this survey, please visit:
http://www.zogby.com/methodology/readmeth.dbm?ID=1318

Anyday now there will be a biggie...some absurd issue or claim about one of the Obama's...

Just a matter of time and how they deal with it...

Those are facts. Yes.



That's not a fact...indeed, it's a spurious claim with zero supporting evidence. Now it's a conspiracy between Obama and McCain?



My point is that you are contorting things to fit a certain argument that don't naturally fit.



And the campaign for me began in 2004 - maybe before. This has nothing to do with the gossip bitches in the news, I'm talking about door knocking, legworking, policy wonking, deal making work that gets a person more than 6% of the vote. This has been a long time in the making by hard working citizens and activists. I started this campaign in earnest on Nov 13th. Jsut ask any long time poster here.

Nov 13th 2004 - the nation was in shock, the democratic party web page was frozen as it would be for months with no updates or activity or comments for those she let down. Kerry was drafting his hasty concession. This forum began to plan and work.

Our plan was:
1. Expose the Fraud, Secure the right to vote - paper only. (Didn't work so hot..still trying...at least Bev's documentary got made)
2. Infiltrate the democratic party and remove the DLC from the running. Join platform comittees and get Dean as the head of the DNC <-- all accomplished.
3. Remove DLC candidates as evidence of grass roots reolution <-- failed. Will keep trying...Almost ousted Lieberman. In 2004 nobody would have guessed it would end up with this guy getting edged out farther and farther. At least we exposed that traitor for who he is.
4. Win in 2006 by large enough margins that hte fraud couldn't help. <-- arguably achieved. At least a major shift was accomplished.
5. Nominate a non dlc candidate for the top of hte ticket in 2008. <-- achieved.
6. Run a serious, web aware, and responsive campaign against the republicans in 08 to get a super-majority capable of fixing a good deal of these wrongs.
7. Continue to infiltrate the party for a major house cleaning in 2012 <-- on target.

Yes...I'm getting ready to attend the convention 2012 - by starting now to shape the 2012 platform.

So yeah, I think this is the end of the campaign for 08 ... this being the latter portion of 2008 and the culination of four long years of effort.



Change is the only norm. Adapt and respond or give up, or willfully screw up. These are your options.

It's too late to get Nader a win in 08. If you were serious about it, the time to respond would have been in the wake of 04...that's when Nader - if he were serious - would have taken center stage and gone into overdirve rallying a takeover of the democratic party or a viable third party solution - or anything...all he did was half measures of his own.

I'm all for competition, and I'm all for third parties...but to just plug him onto the ballot at this point only achieves one thing: President McCain.

Ignoring that is stupid.
The time to act was years ago. Get started for 2012 if you are serious. Get started now.

Noooo..... Nader at 6 percent where ?

AP/CNN poll two months in a row. He also polled at 10% in Michigan in April.

Numbers don't always tell the story.

You have to look at the effect of Nader etc on the "leaners". Instead of swallowing their egos the Naders and "whiners" have to help tear down the better alternative for the country. It's one thing to have differences as Obama addressed in his blog but the recent posts of "whiners" has been personal attacks.

As Randi always says if Nader were serious he would have built the organization Obama did a long time ago. He's a one man marching band.

That's the sad part because I like Nader. He would have more power by throwing his support behind a candidate... he could help form the policy and platforms. By running for president, his power is gone after the polls close.

If you read my other post in here you'll see that you are mistaken about Nader pulling from Obama to McCain's advantage. That is just fear-mongering and it doesn't work... on me at least. You comments on what should be done are huge generalities... "should take center stage"... come on. How does one do that? Did Obama take center stage in 2004? Nope. I know you are a die-hard supporter but you don't need to spend time pushing against Nader to make your point about Obama. My vote is going for Nader so preaching to me about what I should have been doing... when you have no idea what I have or haven't been doing is kind of silly. Besides, isn't dropping in hear and boasting about Obama kind of preaching to the choir? So who are you converting in here? It's not me.

the 10% is a three months old ,which can be found on Nader's web site

as for the six percent AP/CNN poll,

more than one poll would be great

a great quote in the The CNN article is "summertime polls often overstate the eventual election day showing of third partry candidates" as the tend to get no more than half that in Nov.


So go vote for Nader and enjoy yourself