This love affair you have with Obama needs to stop its effecting your objectivity. Who cares if Obama can fill a 75,000 seat stadium this is not about picking the next American Idol its about picking the next president of the United States that can solve our problems. This is no way a thread bashing Obama but this gullibility towards him is really clouding your judgement. If you cared so much about this FISA bill why are you not holding Obama's feet to the fire. He approves of the bill and he is going to vote for it. I dont care if you are a Republican or a Democrat if you think that it is right to violate my constitutional right to privacy than i cant support you. Its about principle not about falling in line. I feel that we are electing a rockstar rather that a commander and chief. You talk about Mccain's flip-flops but you fail to mention Obama's. Obama has changed his position on FISA, campaign finance, gun control, free trade, and even Iraq and i dont care what you say. So what makes you so different from Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity? You distort the other opponents positions like they do to our candidate. All I hear you do is bash them because they make all this money from Clear Channel as if it is wrong in America to make money. Guess what Randi if you had as many listeners as they do then you would want to make as much money as they do. Not that i like Limbaugh or Hannity because i think they are both scumbags, but i dont hate them for knowing what they are worth in the broadcast industry. Obama says he will bring change but we dont know shit until he is elected. I may be a democrat but i for one am im not going stand by and duped by a snake oil salesman screaming change.

P.S. IM AM JUST VENTING AND EXPRESSING MY RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH. RANDI IS REALLY PISSING ME OFF WITH THIS OBAMA IS HOLY AND ABOVE CRITICISM BS.

He didn't flip flop on Iraq. You need to read and/or listen to the entire quote, not just the smidgeon that the mainstream played where he's quoted out of context.

And he had said that he would take public financing ON THE CONDITION that the McCain camp wouldn't use 527 groups to spread smears about him. McCain refused so Obama decided not to go with public financing.

He hasn't changed his position on guns of for that matter free trade either.

You really need to read the entire story before you get your knickers in a knot.

And here's what he's said about Fisa

I have been listening to Randi for about a year and a half. She is the only one that actually tells the truth. So I don't know where you are coming from about your bitch here. If you don't like this, you would probably love Fox News. Every time she slammed Hillary, I was already there before I heard her talk about it. Every time she talked about any candidate, I was already there. She has been right on the ball, the only problem is she is ready to lash out on Obama before she gets to what is actually going on. Unfortunately I am feeling the same way, but I am willing to hold my tongue till I learn more, she does not have that option having a talk show, she needs to vent her opinions, to then be backed by fact the next day. She has been one of the few people even though wrong at times, has admitted it and told us why. She is the real deal. A REAL great American Hannity you corporate shrill.

Must've jumped on to the McCain payroll.

Did you understand the part where Randi described Limbaugh as a Republican shill? He's getting paid for the number of stations he's on and spewing Repug talking points and politics of hate!

If Randi is having a love affair you're the dying breed that still wants to be abused by Limbaugh, Bush while they laugh all the way to the bank!

Connect the dots!

Psssssssssst.....Hilary lost

we are having a love affair with Obama!

After 8 yrs of the worst and most corrupt government in American history, with the prospect of extending it 4 more years with McCain! Love affair is a mild way of putting it,

"I am absolutely fucking thrilled to no end that we might actually have the Democrats meaningfully in control of the entire government just in time to save our country and its people"



His name could be Mickey Mouse or Hillary Clinton and I would love him, at the moment...

Wake up.... ( shaking ) wake up man.... (more shaking and a couple light slaps) wake up... your still under the lingering influence of the Kool-aid. Its gonna be ok though, your in a good place.

Two things real quick.
1) get your facts straight. Your going to want to come to your conclusions slowly, its gonna be hard but your going to need to resist the urge to jump to conclusions.
2) Please stop insulting people who support the presumed democratic candidate by asserting that we only support him as the result of some cult of personality. We are generally not stupid. Most of us have our reasons and reservations but you can never forget the alternative is absolutely unacceptable

Hey jj82,

What are you, really? A disgruntled Hillbot or a republican. It's one or the other, but you're not a democrat. Go vote for McCain or Bob Barr or Nadar. You obviously don't listen to the show or are too stupid to absorb what's being said. Now go listen to little Sean Hannity. Michael Reagan or whatever hater you take your talking points from.

Wrong on every level I can think of.
jj82 must be one of George Bush's loyal subjects.
It is impossible for Barrack Obama to be a worse president than George W.
Mr. Obama will be a fine president. A vote for anyone else is a vote to restore the monarchy and to insure that Iran will be invaded by the U.S. Imperial Military.

Hear hear!!!!

The quickest way to get to the Memorial thread is to badmouth Randi on her own message board!!

Just remember guys, Water Gate was caused by tapping the Democratic headquarters. This administration tapped the entire country. This must have made it easy to know Kerry's stragedy. Now, they have Obama tapped, and there is nothing we can do about it till they pass this amended FISA legislation. This is why they are wanting to pass this for right now, even if it is a candy covered dog turd.

Hey, Ballz, they must have been partying too much over the Fourth of July weekend. Eggs started a thread, that she fell in love again, infatuation. I told her I am passed infatuation to the flatuation stage, I smelled his farts, only human you know. Doubt anyone in America can match Dummy's humaness. But Hell, can't tell anyone that's in love anything. It sucks to see our children to get hurt but letting go means they have got their own path too. Hey, U no some folks jus don't pay no mind to elders, dat's just da way it be Jack, dat's jus da way it b.

Now, they have Obama tapped.

I doubt is really matters. Obama is about 173 steps ahead of them.

Thank you! Some people just can't move on! Amazing!

I am sorry but that's bull he said that he would take public finance if mccain would as well and he changed his mind because he knew he would be at a financial advantage if he did not take it. what 527 groups are smearing obama? Stop drinking the coolaid.
He said that the DC BAN was constitutional than turn around and said that he always believed in the 2nd amendment. He bashed NAFTA than said he was a free trader. He said that he would get us out of iraq in 16 months than said that he may have to refine is position. The FISA SWITCH IS THE ONE I AM MOST PISSED ABOUT.

The quote from Obama:
I want to take this opportunity to speak directly to those of you who oppose my decision to support the FISA compromise.

This was not an easy call for me. I know that the FISA bill that passed the House is far from perfect. I wouldn't have drafted the legislation like this, and it does not resolve all of the concerns that we have about President Bush's abuse of executive power. It grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that may have violated the law by cooperating with the Bush administration's program of warrantless wiretapping. This potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses. That's why I support striking Title II from the bill, and will work with Chris Dodd, Jeff Bingaman and others in an effort to remove this provision in the Senate.

But I also believe that the compromise bill is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year. The exclusivity provision makes it clear to any president or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court. In a dangerous world, government must have the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people. But in a free society, that authority cannot be unlimited. As I've said many times, an independent monitor must watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people. This compromise law assures that the FISA court has that responsibility.

The Inspectors General report also provides a real mechanism for accountability and should not be discounted. It will allow a close look at past misconduct without hurdles that would exist in federal court because of classification issues. The recent investigation (PDF) uncovering the illegal politicization of Justice Department hiring sets a strong example of the accountability that can come from a tough and thorough IG report.

The ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States is a vital counter-terrorism tool, and I'm persuaded that it is necessary to keep the American people safe -- particularly since certain electronic surveillance orders will begin to expire later this summer. Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, I've chosen to support the current compromise. I do so with the firm intention -- once I'm sworn in as president -- to have my Attorney General conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.

Now, I understand why some of you feel differently about the current bill, and I'm happy to take my lumps on this side and elsewhere. For the truth is that your organizing, your activism and your passion is an important reason why this bill is better than previous versions. No tool has been more important in focusing peoples' attention on the abuses of executive power in this administration than the active and sustained engagement of American citizens. That holds true -- not just on wiretapping, but on a range of issues where Washington has let the American people down.

I learned long ago, when working as an organizer on the South Side of Chicago, that when citizens join their voices together, they can hold their leaders accountable. I'm not exempt from that. I'm certainly not perfect, and expect to be held accountable too. I cannot promise to agree with you on every issue. But I do promise to listen to your concerns, take them seriously, and seek to earn your ongoing support to change the country. That is why we have built the largest grassroots campaign in the history of presidential politics, and that is the kind of White House that I intend to run as president of the United States -- a White House that takes the Constitution seriously, conducts the peoples' business out in the open, welcomes and listens to dissenting views, and asks you to play your part in shaping our country's destiny.

Democracy cannot exist without strong differences. And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok. But I think it is worth pointing out that our agreement on the vast majority of issues that matter outweighs the differences we may have. After all, the choice in this election could not be clearer. Whether it is the economy, foreign policy, or the Supreme Court, my opponent has embraced the failed course of the last eight years, while I want to take this country in a new direction. Make no mistake: if John McCain is elected, the fundamental direction of this country that we love will not change. But if we come together, we have an historic opportunity to chart a new course, a better course.

So i am A republican or disgrutle hilbot if i criticise Obama for his BULLSHIT explanation on FISA. You really are drinking the coolaid. That is what is wrong with Democrats we are too busy bashing republicans that we fail to hold our own people accountable.

Apparently they reinserted the clause holding the telecom companies responsible, and the FISA court is now overseeing the entire nsa spying fiasco.

This is progress!

I will try to find the link for the update on the FISA bill.

No, not necessarily. One can be either of those things with or without criticism. I think folks are also reacting to the naked lack of sincerity in your thread title. Yeah, SURE your "sorry."

BULLSHIT! With FISA the government can tap your phone and go back to the court 48 hours after they tapped our phones for a warrant. I dont understand that under those guidelines that it cant be a vital tool to fighting terrorism.

i never said i was sorry.

In actuality, the opposite is quite true and problematic

Democrats tend to be far more self critical of their party and their leaders than the Republicans, so much so that we almost self destructed in the primary while the republicans just stood idly by hoping we would do just that.

please give me a link.

The vote on the amendment has not been revealed yet.
http://dpc.senate.gov/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=lb-110-2-113

And Harry Reid is against immunity:
Keep up your calls to your reps!
http://democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/recor...?id=300287&

if that is the case what have the republicans been doing to mccain with his support of the immigration bill. I was not part of the whole hillary BS I said that as democrats we must support the nominee. That does not mean that i should sit by support Obama on this FISA Issue.

It is worth reading Harry Reid's remarks on the FISA issue:
Reid: I Oppose Immunity For Companies That Helped The Bush Administration Illegally Spy On Americans

Washington, DC—Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid made the following statement today on the floor of the U.S. Senate regarding the FISA bill the Senate will consider Wednesday:

“The Senate will soon vote on a FISA bill that represents the final result of negotiations among the White House and Democrats and Republicans in Congress. I opposed the version originally passed by the Senate. And although improvements have been made in the version now before us, this legislation continues to contain provisions that will lead to immunity for the telecommunications companies who cooperated with the Bush Administration’s illegal warrantless wiretapping program.

“For that reason, I will vote no.

“Having said that -- I am pleased that President Bush and Congressional Republicans finally agreed to negotiate a better bill with us. For months, the President insisted it was his way or the highway. The White House refused to come to the negotiating table, repeatedly demanding that the House of Representatives simply pass the Senate’s bill.

“I commend our Democratic colleagues in the House for standing up to insist on more protections for the privacy of innocent Americans. This debate has shown once again that protecting the American people is not a Democratic or Republican issue.

“Democrats want to provide our intelligence professionals all the tools they need to fight terrorism. But we must also protect the privacy of law-abiding Americans and protect against abuses of the Constitution.

“We all know that in the darkest corners of earth lie evil people who seek to harm our country and our people. We all agree on the need to monitor the communications of terrorists in order to protect the American people. But despite what the President insists, America is strengthened by our reverence for our laws and Constitution.

“I am grateful for the efforts of the Congressional leaders who have worked tirelessly – and at times it may have seemed endlessly – to craft this compromise bill. Chairmen Rockefeller and Leahy did a tremendous job under difficult circumstances . Senators Feingold and Dodd also deserve special recognition for reminding us that our Constitution must always come first.

“This version is better than the bill the Senate passed in February and better than the flawed ‘Protect America Act’ signed by the President last summer:

* This bill now includes Senator Feinstein’s amendment to reaffirm that FISA is the exclusive means by which the executive branch may conduct surveillance. This provision is Congress’s direct response to the strained argument of President Bush’s lawyers that Congress meant to repeal the very clear and specific requirements of FISA when Congress passed the Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Afghanistan. Congress flatly rejects that argument as having no basis.

* This bill includes Sen. Leahy’s important amendment requiring a comprehensive Inspector General review of the President’s program, as well as greater judicial supervision.

* This bill requires the United States Attorney General to develop guidelines to ensure compliance with the Fourth Amendment, and to prevent ‘reverse targeting’ – that is, targeting someone abroad when the real purpose is to acquire the communications of a person in the United States.

* This bill provides for increased Congressional oversight, requiring extensive reporting to the Judiciary and Intelligence Committees about the implementation of the new provisions and their impact on U.S. persons.

* This bill rejects changes to the definition of ‘electronic surveillance,’ a change sought by the administration that could have had unforeseen and far-reaching consequences for FISA’s protections for the privacy of law-abiding Americans.

* And this bill ensures that the law expires in four years, requiring the next President and Congress to evaluate its effectiveness.

“These changes add checks on the expansive executive powers contained in the original bill. But as I said – despite these improvements, this legislation needs more work. That is why I oppose it, and why I am committed to working with a new President to improve it.

“Congress should not wait until the 2012 expiration to improve this bill. I will work to ensure that Congress revisits FISA well before 2012, informed by the oversight that will be conducted in the coming months by the Judiciary and Intelligence Committees and by the reports of the Inspectors General.

“Next year, for example, Congress will be required to revisit a number of provisions of the Patriot Act. That may provide a suitable occasion to review the related issues in this FISA bill.

“While this bill does include some improvements to Title I’s intelligence collection procedures, I strongly oppose Title II. Title II establishes a process where the likely outcome is immunity to the telecommunications carriers who participated in the President’s illegal warrantless wiretapping program.

“The bill does not provide any protection for the government officials who designed and authorized this program. It also, of course, does not preclude a challenge to the constitutionality of this legislation in federal district court.

“Nobody should read the Title II provision of this bill as a judgment on the legality of the President’s warrantless wiretapping program. It is not. And nobody should expect that a grant of immunity is anything other than a one-time action. This was made clear in the Senate Intelligence Committee report that accompanied an earlier version of this legislation.

“Service providers should clearly understand that no grant of immunity will be forthcoming if they cooperate with future government requests that do not comply with the procedures outlined in this legislation. The current lawsuits against the telecomm companies seek accountability. These lawsuits could have been a vehicle to achieve a public accounting of the President’s illegal warrantless wiretapping program. That is why it is important that Democratic negotiators forced the President to submit his program to a comprehensive Inspector General review. That review should finally provide a full airing of this entire sorry episode.

“The bill requires the Inspectors General of the relevant agencies to complete a comprehensive review of the President’s surveillance program within a year. By the time that report is issued, President Bush will have left office. Although his term will have come to an end, the work of uncovering his Administration’s abuses of power is just beginning. Future Presidents, Congress and the American people will learn from President Bush’s abuses of power.

“The debate on this FISA legislation may be nearing an end, but the history books are yet to be written. Throughout this fight, a small number of lonely voices insisted that there is no contradiction between liberty and security. As new facts have become known, their numbers have swelled and their voices have grown louder.

“I am confident that when all is known, the condemnation for President Bush’s blatant disregard for our Constitution will be deafening. And I hope that because those voices refused to be silenced, the next president – and all future presidents – will not waver from a path that protects the American people without compromising our core American values.”

lets see what happens. thanks gabriel.

jj82-

Do you listen to Randi? Or more important do you read a newspaper? Do you even know Obama's position on FISA and why he's voting the way he is? You aren't a democrat. You're a Hillbot. You don't know what you're talking about and refuse to learn why Obama makes the points he makes. He doesn't give NAFTA a blanket pardon and his vote on the FISA bill will RESTORE FISA to what it once was, ie. NOT warrantless wiretaps.

So then, you'll be voting for the Democratic Candidate for President?
Or will this one issue push you over to Larouche?

no where on my post did i say i would never vote for Obama. I am just going to hold him accountable that all.

Blarsen shut the hell up. If you want to be Obama's bitch be one. I choose to not to be. I am talking about holding companies accountable for giving our personal information to our government without a warrant. If you can explain obama's positon better than he can than explain. Dont accuse me being somebody that i am not.

Let's try to get him in the White House before we start tearing his spleen out? Oh Kay?

but that is the point. time after time we vote for these democrats and they do nothing. Its time that we start holding these politicians feet to the fire.

I don't agree with Obama on the FISA thing or his stance on the Faith Based bullsh*t. But, NO ONE is perfect
and I will happily vote for Senator Obama in Nov.

Even John Dean said that ANY Dem is better than ANY repug.

that is true.

You'd better pray day and night that Nader doesn't expand his polling from his current 6% to 10% because should he hit that 10% threshold, he will be in the Google/youtube debates being held in September in New Orleans. If he gets into the debates he will hit 20% soon after. Then its ON!

These debates are outside the jurisdiction of the illegal CPD (commission on presidential debates) so they can't block him from this.

I have to agree with this statement. I did not blindly follow behind Obama, it has been a deliberate excruciating thought process. When he started pandering to the illegals I thought I had no choice at all. He now expressed the very problems that I have with the present situation. They broke the law, and my Mayor is breaking the law, the San Fransisco Mayor is breaking the law, he addressed this to a group of American officials of Latino ancestry. He told them the truth, they broke the law, then laid out the path back to fixing this problem. Way to go Obama! FISA is the same thing. This President broke the law, now we have to figure out a way to fix this.

Breaking the law seems to be the American way right now. This is why we are so lost in these times. Pandering is just another condoning of the way things are. Stop the pandering, re-enact the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Geneva Convention.

You might have a case if you did not make shit up. Put a few links in here.

tell me what i am making up. these are facts its not like i am just grabing them out of my ass. Even if i wanted to i would not be able to put a few links because i am an idiot when it comes to the computer.

Nader took money from the repuker party in 2004,that makes him a hypocrite in my book!!

You are fomenting dissatisfaction in our candidate. You're forming a circular firing squad. Now your motives are suspect.

Have a nice day.

My feelings exactly! I am just thrilled at the possibility of being to lift my head with pride again and getting our people out of that horrific oil-greed war they are being sacrificed for! The puzzling thing to me is how anyone could be so unmoved by this "movement!" It is a movement. I have not felt this good about politics in years! I felt somewhat like this in 1992 with Bill and Al, but soon began to feel deflated as soon as those criminals took over congress in 1994. Then after Monica, I just felt like we would never have peace again. In the beginning of this campaign season, I was going to vote for Hillary, but her campaign was so mismanaged that that thrill and sense of excitement quickly faded. The rest was just a win at all cost strategy. With this campaign, I am moved, and motivated. I am looking forward to being asked to do something besides rejoice at the tax cuts for the wealthy, and shop!

Also if you agree to take a "let's see" position. Then clearly it's time to stop antagonizing your fellow Democrats and aim at McCain. You can persecute Mr. Obama after he's president. In the mean time even with your alleged good intentions you're not helping one bit. The primary is over. It's time to fall in line.

QUOTE (jj82 @ Jul 8 2008, 04:01 PM)

i never said i was sorry.

Oh, dear - would you at LEAST try to make it a little hard?

Scroll up to the top of the page you're looking at RIGHT now, and see if THESE words don't seem vaguely familiar to you...



Now, inasmuch as your snappy retort at the top of this post was in response to my expression of skepticism that your "sorry" was sincere - and my suggestion that others here feel the same way, this moment, right now, must feel a little bit like a real life version of that dream where you're standing in front of the entire class without a stitch of clothing, and everyone is laughing and pointing at you.

Your ass backwards!

Repugs have been in control past 7 yrs w/ the neo-Lib Dems...did you forget?

Then you talk about Randi being the same as Limbaugh and Hannity. That's old fair and balanced bull shit.

jj88 - Thank you for starting this thread. I too am concerned about Obama's new positions. When people start attacking you personally for expressing an opinion, you know you've struck a nerve. Don't let them get you down.

As for you frothing at the mouth respondents (you know who you are), why does this upset you so much?

Hey, at least he's not a Clinton.

No froth just ooze from being smashed by the hammer of truth!

Another one!!