It is absolutely unbelievable that so few people have taken Hillary Clinton, and to a lesser degree Bill, to task for the damage they have managed to cause our chances vs. McCain in this most crucial election. Thanks Hillary, for allowing your sicko, or psycho, advisors to give the other side enough attack ad fodder to run all the way to November. As even they themselves admitted, they used a "kitchen sink", "scorched earth" strategy against Obama, even after the contest was mathematically over WAY BACK IN MARCH.

It really speaks a lot about Hillary that she allowed, or orchistrated, the used of racial, class, gender, and any other devisive issue she could find or fabricate for her OWN personal/political benefit. In doing so, she "tickled the dragons tail". By that I mean she found a group of dissafected, older, extreme feminists and enflamed their passions with claims of gender bias being used against her, which she somehow managed to attribute to Obama. I still cant figure that one out since there is not ONE instance of the Obama campaign doing anything to deserve that attack. At the same time she managed to tap into a the dirty little secret that NOBODY wants to talk about. There is a significant number of white women, republican, and independant, who are so fed up with Bush that they were willing to vote for a democrat, especially a woman candidate such as herself, but NEVER a black, gender biased, possible stealth Muslim. Yes, she helped create and perpetuate those falsehoods and used them against Obama. "She found her voice". Bullshit. She found a niche group who's fears, hopes and bias she could exploit. WTF does it mean when a woman says that she is a lifetime democrat but is going to vote for McCain? What is really going on there? If you are at all honest, you will admit that the slanderous tactics Hillary used during the campaign gave cover to the fact that we still live in a very racist society. One of the great American myths still out there is that somehow, someway, women are more reasoning, rational, egalitarian, and unbiased. Again, bullshit!! That is the REAL "Tom Bradly" effect. Women are less likely to reveal their prejudices, unless it's totally anonymous, but they have bought into the same tired old American paternalistic, racist, classist, handicaps.

I dont like to speak unkindly of the departed, but of particular ugliness was the role that Hillary had the late Stephanie Tubbs Jones play in attacking Obama. Hillary correctly figured that using Jones to attack Obama gave her a "two-fer" in that she was a black and a woman. In that order. Jones was a routine figure on the nightly pundit roundtables, parroting some of the most scurrilous of untruths about Obama. You could tell she was betting that she was going to be rewarded for her attacks by landing a spot in a Clinton administration. As a black man, I was enraged by Jones apparent enthusiasm for the hack roll.

Getting back to the Hillary.....now that she has congealed this THING (undereducated, late middle aged and over, blue collar, angry, latently racist, ultra feminist, and yes "bitter" women) she continues to use this vocal group of voters to force the rest of the country to pay attention to her ambitions. History is FULL of power seekers creating a group of followers to help further their own politcal aims. We should be very aware that once one "tickles the dragons tail" the results that flow from the act can be dangerous.

I ask you again, what does it mean when a woman who espouses to be a Hillary democrat, a person who claims to value life, liberty, peace, democracy, education for all, healthcare for all, ending the war(s), etc. says she will NEVER vote for Obama, and will not only NOT vote for him, but will in fact vote for McCain? In what universe does that even sound possible? It's the Clinton universe. I keep going back to this theme because the number of Hillary supporters out there that I hear make this alarming claim is alarmingly large and vocal. Thanks Hillary!

A word of warning. People often fault black voters for allowing themselves to be pandered to, for putting all our eggs in one basket. Black voters are encouraged to be more "sophisticated" about how we give our political support. I would strongly encourage women voters to take a good hard look at how they have been PLAYED by the Clinton campaign.

Here we are 10 weeks from election day and here we STILL are, having to kiss Hillary's ass. Why, because she wontonly hold a dagger at the neck of the democratic party. Why? Because she is (the Clintons are) the most politically ambitious and power thirsty folks on the American national political scene today. I used to like them, when they were on OUR side vs. the neocons. I didnt care what tactics they used because the other side deserved it. I NEVER would have thought that they would use those same tactics against a top quality democratic candidate, but I was wrong.

I will watch her give a luke warm, formulaic, self serving address this week in Denver, and watch Bill try to rehab his "legacy" as well. Then I hope to never have to see them again on the national scene, other than to learn of their divorce, since there will be nothing in it for them anymore to maintain the facade that they are anything other than a very dysfunctional, power mad, partnership.

Hillary folks, get the hell over it!

Finally,

and now McCain is using her in his new ad...The clintons had their day...and it's over.

Too late to edit...The clintons won't cost us the election...sure, they gave McCain fuel and they knew it when they did it...but Obama/Biden is such an exciting ticket...can't go wrong!

I would like believe that, but I'm not sure that we have seen the bottom of the pit of politics by devision yet in this campaign. The Obama candidacy, imo, is not only groundbreaking for America, it continues to be very INFORMATIVE about who we really are as a people.

Clintons aren't costing me anything... unless I decide to help with the debt If Hilary is on board... so should her supporters... UNLESS, they weren't considering the issues in the first place. Then they should have never been apart of the election process in the first place.

My point is that SOME people have the ability to shape how others act. Hillary's strategists knew that there are certain fears and and anger that they could tap into, and they, and she, were willing to go there in order to get votes. An extreme case of this sort of behavior is Hitler in 30's Germany. Another, more recent one is post 9/11 George Bush. Actually, if you think about it, it's a tried and true tactic of despots throughout history.

The other point I'm trying to make is that once the "monster" is created it cant be un-created. So, what have we got on our hands within the democratic and party and indies? A great barometer of Clinton's future political asperations will be the way she addresses the "monster" in Denver. I anticipate that she will seek to solidify, mobilize, legitimize, and structure control of this new "constituancy" moving forward. Watch on Wednesday night and see if you dont agree with me.

It's like getting repeatedly shot in the foot by your teammate in a race.

Eventually, you've got to ask yourself if you two are on the same team.

I have to think that many of the diehard Clinton supporters are strong feminists who are sticking with HRC for that reason. But, it seems pretty clear to me that they are being PLAYED, in a way which isn't much different that what a "player" does to get what he wants. The relationship, and words, are based on lies, and disrespect. How could a woman vote for anyone who related to her in that way. The latest McCain ad is no different than a pickup line.

When Hillary had a moment of despair, she let her hair down and quit pandering, and just talked to everyone..... they responded. She should have been honest and been on point to the issues that plague us, had she done this, she might have won. She broke out every tool in the shed to stuff into everyones back. I was outraged when she was on my city hall talking to 100,000 illegals telling them to vote for her. This was pathetic to ignore rule of law, the edicts passed on legal citizens, the burdens on our city. Not to mention the blatant black market undercutting laws and codes.

I told everyone that could listen that she was just giving the repugs all the ammunition they needed. Politics is now a word that means traitor. We will promise the world and then destroy it.

Obama has taken the high road during this campaign. I remember the debate between Hillary and Obama. Steponallofus tried to get Obama to stick a knife in her back, he refused. He demanded to talk about the issues. Hillary on the other hand readily stabbed Obama time and time again. Obama stood up to the inquisition and defended not just himself, but Hillary as well. He refused to play the game, and conducted himself as a gentleman. I was proud to say he was my choice that night.

Yeah...as in she's "tough" and a "fighter"...keep on fighting so "we" get the ratings!

And as a result of her almost winning the nomination, all those nepatistic, anything goes, scorched earth strategy espousing, professional king and queen makers who are nothing more than ideoligical guns for hire have proven that hate speak, and the big lie, are still as effective as ever. I intend to track the McCauliffs, et al, of her campaign war room and call them out whenever I see evidence of their handywork. They should be outcast on the Dem side. The fact is that there is a whole industry of political "advisors" who dont care about ethics, only getting paid for results. They're political whores, and they have always been around. When these types of people team up with the sort of political personality such as HRC, combined with huge financial resources, you get the sort of campaign that she ran.

Mathematically speaking, the primaries were over in late March. However, that's when HRC really started burning money. Really bad advice!!! Hey, if HRC is so fond of thumping everyone over the head with her "18 million votes" claim, why not go to them and ask for $1 or $2 from each of them to retire her campaign debt? Why cant she do that, since she technically has NEVER dropped out of the race, only "suspended" it?

So, I'm watching Chris Matthews live at the Denver convention site right this moment, speaking wth a large crowd of deligates/supporters outside on the street and one of them, wearing a Hillary t-shit, butch hair, short, overweight, and loud (typical HRC person), says she hopes Obama will lose so that Hillary can run in four years. THAT is what she created, and THAT is the emarassment we are going to have to go through at the convention, and beyond.

This is a stupid thread. The most ridicule thing ever said, or typed

I'll stop you right there. She didn't ALMOST win anything. That is one of the big problems here.

She was NEVER AHEAD! The only time she was really in it was before it started. She lost Iowa and was behind for the remainder of the contest. The only time she "put up a good fight" was after McCain had secured and we had "Operation Chaos" kick in.

In Ohio, she beat the bushes in rural counties, spreading her "I am just like you" crap. Appealing to the inner racist. Those are the only things that made her look like she was in it.

Reality is she never was.

Right. And thank you for your incisive, thoughtful, well articulated response. Probably hit you where you live. If you can inform me, or anyone else who agrees with the thread, how and why it's stupid, and redicule (your spelling), by all means go ahead. If all you can do is attack on a adolescent level, WTF? Tell me anything that has been said that is either factually untrue or unfair.

Denial, denial, denial. She won MA, the 2 beloved sen from that state throw their support behind Obama early in the primaries, among the entire Kennedy Klan; she won MA by 15 points.
Obama had a huge arena filled with people in Philly, Clinton won PA by 10 points. And the list goes on, This board is more anti-Clinton than Anti-McCain. Maybe Obama will loose the election because of stupid people. Remember there are liberals and there are stupid recentful bitter liberals

What's "butch hair, short, overweight, and loud (typical HRC person)," have to do with anything?

I'll agree with the fact that she was mathematically out of long before June, as I said earlier, but I have to ask the rhetorical question. Why are we going through this exercise with the Clintons TODAY if not for success of the campaign she ran? Read my initial comments and you'll see that what I hate the most about her campaign is exactly that she did go after the "inner racist" vote, as well as the disgruntled older woman vote, and any other niche she could exploit. She tried to alienate Obama from the Jewish vote, too.

wow, I thought they only used that kinda language in right wing talk radio

I am not anti-clinton, I am anti-negativity. She pandered to people who broke our laws, and I mean officials of my town and others. She broke out negativity every chance she could, and we are supposed to buy it thinking she is strong, BULLCRAP! Obama was not even one of my choices, and that is who I ended up voting for.

Sickup--Spot on, she was never really in the race as a contender, simply as an opponent. Her 18 million votes thing is all bullshit too. She didn't get 18 million, it was more like 15 million. Even that is negotiable.

Only reporting what I see and hear EVERY DAY. In fact, I was looking at a prime example speaking to Chris Matthews on live TV just a few minutes ago. Dont blame me pointing out the facts. By the way, the only thing I hate more than stereotypes are people who resemble them!

I cannot go outside and not see shopping carts being used as personal wagons. They are everywhere, they are left everywhere, it is the normal conveyance of kids and are now the proverbial truck. This is what has happened to my town. Everywhere you go graffiti is everywhere, Spanish is the prevalent language, running a cash register is a career. Conservatism at its finest.

All last week as she explained how much she was doing for Obama she continued to refer to him as her opponent. They were literally lampooning her over this on MSNBC. I thought I was the only one who noticed. It caught me off guard. I was not sure if she was referring to McCain or if I was listening to an old video. The hatred oozes out of the pours of some of these Hilbots. I have never seen this kind of hatred directed at a winning candidate who did virtually everything he could to avoid attacking somebody that was dragging him through the mud. Frankly, I cannot even watch her or bill clinton on television anymore. Every time I see an Obama surrogate on television they are asked about how many ways they are gonna kiss her ass. It is getting embarrassing.

Obviously you call a lesbian "butch", play her down for being "overweight" (thank God you didn't say FAT) and on top of that want her to shut up. You , Control freak !! So what does Obama supporters look like? A&F tshirts and muscle college boys, and half naked girls like the so called Obama girl on the video on youtube?

Reality check.

Pa was after McSame clinched. Won NH after busloads of folk came in and voted saying they were moving to the state.

She took every other candidate for granted. Fr. Pflegler was right. Her sense of ENTITLEMENT doomed her campaign. And (back to the topic) as a result she pulled out every dirty trick they could think of to try and salvage her run. As a result she gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

One reason the rethugs have been so successful is they don't mortally wound each other or even try to. One of the only good things raygun brought to the table was "never speak ill of another rethuglican"(paraphrased). She wanted her LEGACY so badly that she would do anything to anyone in her way. Proving she was "tough" and a "fighter" All it proved was that she will do anything to get what she wants. Even cry.

Randilover--?QUe es la problema con Hablando Espanol? JK Brother. I gotta tell you, I prefer speaking Spanish a lot of times, and typing it too. For example, Yesterday in English is a pain to type, in Spanish it's Ayer. Simple, see? Yes or Si? No is the same, I guess no is no, no matter where you go in North or South America.

Not only did she try to alienate Obama from the Jewish vote she did the same thing with the Latino vote. In the L.A. debate, she turned around and used a story about a black women losing her job as a justifiable frustration among black people. This tells me she was actively trying to excite racial passions. I am not even going get into the southern strategy they employed throughout the Appalachian states.

Wow! I must have REALLY hit you where you live since now you're reduced to calling names. You dont have ANY idea of my background and where I am coming from. FYI, since many of my friends are lesbians, I know that "butch" is not a derrogitory term in all caes. And that is not where I was going with that anyway. In any event, it is what it is. Another group of radicalized HRC supporters are your 50 something and over, Burmuda shorts, golf cap and tennis shoes wearing, grey haired, Bronx accent having, grandma's who somehow have managed to convince themselves that Barack Obama somehow is to blame for everything wrong with America. You will see what I am talking about in Denver ALL WEEK LONG.

Exactly!!!

You hit nowhere, stupidity hits nowhere. Butch is not a derrogatory noun to many lesbians, but your post clearly was meant to degrade her because of her sexual orientation. You remind me of Rush Limbaugh when he attacked and imitated the body language of Michael J Fox. You seem to be too stupid to rebuttal her points of views and jump on the personal attacks. Typical of bullies on both side of the political aisle

Just describing what I see and hear personally. If they were green, petite, men from the mid west that is how I would have described them. Dont focus on the minutia and lose the overall thought. You no doubt have seen and listened to her supporters at these rally's. Honestly, tell me that you dont see a commonality among her most vocal supporters. I am NOT saying that there is anything WRONG with being any of those things. What I am saying is that they are the willing victims of a campaign that was ,and is, more than willing to pander to their angst.

No, in Brasil it's "não"...because they speak Portuguese there. And yes is "sim".

See?

The more you read RRMB, the More You Know.

Dont try to paint me with THAT brush. And calling names is really the last resort of the weak minded. Fact is that I have been an ACTIVE liberal democrat for longer than you probably have been on the planet. Having personally registered over 1,000 new democratic voters. Talk to me about the effect that the Clinton's are having on the most important election of the last 100 years, or please shut the hell up.

ATL, I respect you. You were the first to post after the primaries, as a Hillary supporter getting behind Obama. What is getting people like myself is she gave the right and McCain alot of fodder to use against Obama. They have an ad that came out today with Hillary showing Hillary attacking Obama, and showing that she was snubbed as VP. It also showed her praising McCain. What get's people like myself mad are these PUMA people. I wish somebody like you can address these issues with them. All of these people who say they were Hill supporters and they are now voting for McCain. It should have never gotten to this point. This has become the most hateful campain I have ever seen, and I have never seen so-called Democrats hoping the Democratic candidate lose. This crap needs to stop.

EXACTLY!! And that is why I started this thread today. These people who decry everything wrong with the Bush admin and what these crininals have done to America are saying they are going to vote for 4 more years of the same. How INSANE is that????? How did it come to this. Ask HRC??

I was a die hard HRC suppoter, yes I was one of those devastated ones but moved on quickly after I thought she didnt have a chance to win. My feelings for Obama are true. This Thread is just plain bs; the election is still months away and you idiot are already predicting Barack's loss, and not only that, HRC has been blamed for that already. HOPEFULLY Barack will win and you will have to eat this whole thread.
If you are a real activist, use your obviously free time and go to Denver, try to explain those "butches with the Bronx accent" why they NEED to vote for Barack Obama instead of spelling your stereotype homophobic poison in a message board....wait....you probably see a lesbian and get all grossed out. I thought I was never going to except Obama, I totally believe in the power of persuasion, many of my friends here in this board, opened my eyes and I am totally cool with the dude.

I do agree, we should not blame Hillary for everything. If she had won I would have not had a second thought about voting for her. I don't think Obama will lose and I will not blame Hillary if he doesn't. I will blame these so-called supporters who said they will vote McCain, these Pumas and No Deal people. I will also blame the stupid people in America. But the only thing I wish is she was smart enough to see that the media and the right will use the things she did to their advantage. All day I have been hearing on MSNBC on how Hillary people are upset that she is not VP, and their is a huge chunk that are not voting for Obama, and how does Obama bring them in. I thought a few weeks back that most of them are now for Obama? You do have to agree that stuff that she did and said (and she is not totally at fault, it's the people she had with her) are now being used to McCain's advantage. Her supporters are talking about disrupting Obama's acceptance speech etc. What is this? You do have to agree that this is not good and she really needs to come out in a forceful way and say "by you voting against Barack and voting for McCain is a vote against me".

First of all, ATL, it's Sunday. So, yes, I have the day off. Dont know what you do for a living, but I dont work on Sundays. Funny you attacked me that way since you on on this thread right with me. LMAO Secondly, I dont have the means, nor the inclination to go ANYWHERE to try to convince delusional folks who think that undercutting our nominee for the office of President is a good thing. Why dont YOU do what you can to help pull their heads out of their asses and wake up to the fact that their disruptive behaviour is harmful to winning the election.

Latest polling has about 27% of HRC supporters say they will NOT vote for Obama. Another 20+% say that they are undecided. With about 10 weeks left till the election!!!! How can that be?? Please tell me how that thinking works. Dont just keep calling me names. Please, please, PLEASE explain to me, and others, what kind of thinking, or emotion, can cause THAT level of disconnetion with reality. What you obviously dont understand is that this election is CLOSE. Dont take if for granted that Obama is going to beat McCain. Look what happened in 00 and 04. Notwithstanding vote tampering. Dont think that everybody who says they are for Obama are actually going to vote that way, either. Blaming HRC is still relevant because she is still doing MUCH harm by the half assed, irresponsible, and arrogant way she is behaving right NOW!

I hope and pray that I am wrong. Believe me, because if we lose this election I dont know that I want to live in this country for another 50 years.
You

And by the way, ATL, please dont mischaracterize or misquote what I said to fit your angry attacks. I never said "butches with Bronx accent" You pieced together parts of 2 different postings to get that one. How petty. If YOU somehow feel personally insulted by what I have written, that is NOT my intent. However, since you have only chosen to attack ME personally, rather than rebut my statements about the issue, that sounds like a personal problem on your part.

I'm not gonna touch this subtext regarding appearnce of a woman (my union rep would park her Kawasaki so far up my ass I'd be a saddlebag). But I will say this again Hillary ran the perfect campaign if it was 2004. The party establishment and the Clinton's got left behind when the bus route changed. If you look at many of the diehars.PUMAS.possible GOP moles, you'll find a trend in age, education and social activity backgrounds. It really hurts the first time you look in the mirror for the next thing comming only to glance up and se it's passed you. This is really tru of Hillarys top staff who used the kind of crap neede to win the general in the primary season thus screwing up things worse.

I think this is a very accurate accounting for some of the "bitterness" of a chunk of HRC supporters. They seem to feel somehow that 08 was THEIR TIME, as if there is some kind of entitlement to support that. Hillary just fanned those flames and gave cover to it. As a middle aged black man, I have lived with the hope that ONE DAY America could get over it's racial sickness and allow a QUALIFIED person of color to have a REAL shot at the white house. But, I have never thougtht that it was an entitlement. I actually supported Hillary early in the campaign, and was not sure about Obama or any of the "front runners". For me it is NOT about color, its about character. Hillary changed all that by running the type of campaign she ran. And nobody should fail to hold HER responsible for her campaign. After all, isnt the ability to make smart decisions about the advisers you select a key part of "being ready on day one to run the country"?

Obama has two things that will ensure his presidency 1) his youth and 2) the mess that our country is in; if McCain wins the election thanks to Hillary or not, the country will only continue its current downward spiral which will give us eight years of an Obama administration beginning 2012. In 2012 I don't believe that Hillary can win the presidency because of the country's hunger for a change of course and because by then Obama will not let her kitchen sink him now that he has seen what she is willing to do.

I live just north of Denver and will be there tomorrow and again on Thursday to see Obama's speech at Invesco...I know what you are saying but the way you are saying it is a little much...as for seeing it all over Denver this week, you may be seeing it all over the TV but that doesn't mean you will see it all over Denver...I live here...I know what Coloradans are like..keep it real and enough with stereotyping OK? I'm a working class woman over 50 who was a delegate for Obama at the county, congressional district and state conventions...and is now actively campaigning for him now...we went 70% for Obama and 30& for Hillary here.

Sexist and homophobic.

Writeoff.

Next...

You know, once a person goes back and reads, and re-reads what they have written, or said, one always finds that it could have been said, or written, in a better way. There was, and is a lot of frustration in my words, but not an intent to stereotype anybody. However, as I said earlier, the only thing I hate more than stereotypes are the people who resemble them. Think about it. I also agree that my perspective is formed largely on what I see on TV, read on blogs, hear on liberal talk radio, and read in the papers. I dont have time to travel all over the country and see for myself. That would be the best job in the world though!!

By the way, although I am a Californian, and not a Coloradan, I did live in Colorado Springs Colorado, 80911, just down for highway from Denver, for a few years, and it was VERY conservative at that time. I hear that Colorado is in play this cycle, and I hope that your organizing efforts pay off in November.

It's a fact. Be it. Live it. Embrace it. And....watch it on TV at the convention beginning tomorrow. I dont need you to agree with me, but you COULD quote me IN CONTEXT, if you want to be fair, instead of taking a few words snippet to characterize. I was actually WATCHING the person I described on live televsion in Denver at the time I wrote that. She was being interviewed by Chris Matthews of Hardball while he was working a crowd of deligates and supporters gathered outside the convention hall. She was in a crowd of maybe hundreds of Obama suporters, and she had the nerve to yell out that she hoped Obama would LOSE so Hillary could win in 2012. And the fact is that I see the same thing when I see HRC followers in NYC, Miami, Ohio, rural PA, and all over the country. There are a few KEY groups of HRC hard core fanatics out there. The demographics tell the story, but it's obvious to anybody with an eye to see.

Nah, you just have a problem with a certain look, and need to check yourself.



Sorry, you are invoking plain old HOMOPHOBIA and now you're trying to backtrack to rationalize it.

WTF does it matter what a "typical Hillary supporter" looks like, or what the person you WATCHED looks like?



Yes, and I am one of their loudest critics. And, I can do so without resorting to the same old homophobic, anti-female BS you just engaged in.

Another b.s. argument.

How many countless times have you been told you or your posts resemble some "stereotype", which the person then uses to cling to said stereotype?

I guess when the stereotype is butch white women, well, that's....different.

Very true. The PUMA mentality has nothing to do with sexuality or gender. In fact, Obama gets some of his strongest support from both homosexuals and women.