From many artifacts gathered over the centuries from various early human dwellings, it is clear that ceremony was an important part of the onset of civilization and, conversely, a way to ritualize the un-explainable. As these tribes developed specialists, like chief hunters and shamans, these people, like their current counterparts, had to justify their existences. The shamans ended up scaring the living daylights out of the tribe's populace regarding things they didn't understand. The irony here is that the shamans didn't understand it either, they just had to make something up so they could retain their position in the tribe. We see a modern day version of this management-by-fear behavior eminating from the White House. Haven't you felt the trembling fear-mongering from DICK (Darth) Cheney (Vader) ever since 9/11?

I can't stop reading my history that tells me how interlocked religion and violence (wars, purges, inquisitions, crusades, pogroms, etc.) are so inexorably linked over thousands of years. We have endured pantheism all the way down to monotheism. This cascade of god sorting is linked to ever-increasing discovery and technology that explains away the myths that the shamans of then and now used to justify their jobs.

Today we are stuck with monotheism that is peculiar to that ultimate abstraction: dying, or the lack of understanding that our exalted individual presence on Earth must end someday. As we learn more about the universe and ITS mysteries we both justify a god explanation and debunk current theology about the creation of the universe and how it works.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/1.../372/105/517558

It's almost as troublesome as sex, isn't it? But it won't be given up - for the same reason few people will actually give up sex (even when they have taken vows of "chastity") - no matter how much trouble it causes. Even when people claim to be atheists, a fair share of them manage to make THAT into a religion. Curious, isn't it?

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel.

Not when you're talking about the evangelical ones, shorebird. Not all religion is, after all, theistic. And for some people, atheism is by no means an "off" or "I opt out of all this religious business." I have met some atheists who are very intent upon "converting" others. That is not analogous to a dark screen on the TV.

That doesn't mean it's a religion. No one can be converted to atheism. To be "converted" to a religion a person has to accept unverifiable beliefs.

Guess we are at loggerheads. Why would a change from a belief in something to a disbelief in the same thing not be a "conversion?" And since it is never possible to prove that something doesn't exist, and particularly in the face of claims that the something in question is "indefinable" to begin with, it requires "belief" to affirm: "There is no God." Agnostics may be able to make a valid claim to being free from religion. But very few atheists can. Perhaps, if they are actually indifferent to the implications of their beliefs, they can claim to be just as nearly free from religion as most nominal members of many other faiths actually are. But I have encountered very few indifferent atheists. I find most of them to be quite passionate about their beliefs.

Why does an atheist post in the religion forum?

Just because a person doesn't hold a particular belief doesn't mean they can't study that belief in others.

Can you explain to me then how the OP is "studying" something?

Because we are as interested in religion and, more importantly, as affected by religion as anyone else in this society. As a gay atheist, I ignore religion at my peril. Or I would ignore religion at my peril if I could ignore religion, but I couldn't ignore religion even if I wanted to because religion won't ignore me.

Indeed. Do you mean religion in general or Christianity in particular? Do you think this is because of the part of the world you live in? Would it be the same if you lived in a largely Muslim population, or Hindu or whatever?

Or are Christians just more aggressive than others?

I feel the same way. I'd love to go about my business and life and not care in the least what any religious type person is doing. I'll even allow them the occasional controversy or scadal, as long as it remains for the most part in their own ranks.

I did do that for many years. Not caring or being effected. But when self fulfilling prophecies of the end of the world start to become the brunt of their beliefs I have to kind of pay attention.

I could care less what anyone believed, no matter how outlandish or unproven. I just kind of get a tad worried when the destruction of everything we know is on their menu.

I would not survive a week in a Muslim theocracy like Saudi Arabia or the one which we have created in Iraq. I probably wouldn't do well in a strict Hindu society either. But that's not because Christianity is any gentler or more "civilized" than these other two religions. It's because the rule of law, man's law not god's, keeps it somewhat it in check here (thank you, Founders). I could go to certain Christian countries in Africa or the Caribbean and end up just as dead and for the same reasons as I would in some Islamic state. Christianity and Islam are probably the two most aggressively expansionist and intolerant of the major religions. Any religion that claims to be The Way, not a way, but the way is trouble.

Heck, who knows. People have been known to change thier mind, to grow, over time. (myself excluded).

The religion forum is for discussion of the effects of religion on politics and society. That is a matter of interest for everybody, whether religious or not.

Do you think there will ever be a thread here about the positive effects of religion on politics and society?

I don't know. I've posted about the positive social/societal/personal impacts of observing a sabbath, whether one is religiously observant or not.

I'm pretty sure I have seen one on the role of black churches in the civil rights movement.

I wouldn't mind that discussion. It is a complex one. You can look at a variety of U.S. social movements, such as abolitionism or women's suffrage, and find religious groups fighting on their side, and also against them. The Bible is a large document containing several books written by multiple authors from different time periods and backgrounds, and so on many important social questions, such as slavery, can provide either support or opposition to them....

Religion is not monolithic and I personally would not mind seeing more discussion here of what, for a lack of a better term, can be called the religious left. I admit it's my own bias, being on the left and all, but yes I think the religious left does tend to advance the needs of society.

Incidentally, it is one of my pet peeves that everyone around here treats the Old Testament is a monolithic book of divine jealousy, cruelty, and wrath, as if the prophetic texts, out of which I would argue the message of Jesus and a divine father of love emerged, were not there. That is selective reading, too.

I live near a teen challenge and their success rate is highest in the nation.

Right and that's one of the reasons it won't be discussed in too much detail here.

Not everyone

I'm quite passionate about keeping religion and the state separate. But as for my atheism, I don't care who shares it or how many of us there are and I have no interest in making converts. I think that atheism is something that people figure out for themselves. Or don't figure out, as the case may be.

Q: Religion---Why?

A: Because it's comfortable.
There's no other real answer.

All sentient beings seek the holy life. If not now, then at the end times.

"The House decays when it is not repaired". ~ Buddha Sakyamuni

What exactly is the holy life anyway? If it's the same as trying to treat people the way I'd want to be treated, helping folks when i can, and generally trying to make things better or at least not make them any worse then I guess I'm seeking the holy life. If it is any more involved than that, I don't think I am. Although maybe I'm working on it in the background and am just not aware of it.

I suppose I should explain.
IMHO it's more comfortable to believe that something out there is looking out for you than to believe that the universe is hostile and unregulated.
Does that prove that a Deity exists? No.
Does it prove that a Deity doesn't exist? No.
Also IMHO if G-d and the Devil want to pretend that they don't exist they should be treated accordingly.
Just try to do the right thing even though there might not be anyone looking.

To get to the other side?

Roger that, 10-4.

I should say that people who aspire to what is good, and avoid that which is wrong, have a certain degree of belief inherent in those choices. These are commonly held virtues. Many of us understand that a class of those who make their choices irrespective of right and wrong are psychopathic. Thus, we assume that there is a natural moral order to people, and that those who do not follow to some moral order - a rapist, for instance, or a serial killer - have some element of "inhumanity" to them.

I do not believe that atheist or religious would disagree with that line of thought. Whence such things derive, is a more complex argument. That they exist in human beings, to a greater or lesser degree, does not.

The Parables of the New Testament bring forth the concept that right action is more important than right thought.
"Virtue", says St. Augustine, "is a good habit consonant with our nature." link

Great quantities of ink have been spilled to chew over the notion in religion whether God truly loves a virtuous atheist. One can be reasonably firm in the supposition that God does so, at least more than a wicked person who claims to believe.

For me, belief means only that, were Jesus alive now, He would not answer the question "And who is my brother?" with the Parable of the Samaritan. He would simply say, Matthew Shepard. But I do not think that faith is required to understand what that means.

X-Ray and Cowboy. It has been a very long time since I have spoken with you (almost 2 years now). We used to have wornderful conversations. I just hope you both remember me.

You both bring up truly beautiful thoughts and teachings.

Tyo... i am very much looking forward to speaking with you. You seem to be on the path.

5by5... I miss you too. You trapped me, entised me to explore the Universe and my own mind. I have learned a great deal in these last couple of years. I can't wait to talk to you again. You are The One who challenged me to learn the meaning of "Suffering". Maybe we can have that conversation now...?

I look forward to wonderful conversations with you all. It is just a bit too late in the evening to get too deep into this thread right now.

Namaste'

A store owner was tacking a sign above his door that read " Puppies For Sale". Signs like that have a way of attracting small children, and sure enough, a little boy appeared under the store owner's sign.

"How much are you going to sell the puppies for?" he asked.

The store owner replied, " Anywhere from $30 to $50."

The little boy reached in his pocket and pulled out some change. "I have $2.37," he said. "Can I please look at them?"

The store owner smiled and whistled and out of the kennel came Lady, who ran down the aisle of his store followed by five teeny, tiny balls of fur. One puppy was lagging considerably behind. Immediately the little boy singled out the lagging, limping puppy and said,

"What's wrong with that little dog?"

The store owner explained that the veterinarian had examined the little puppy and had discovered it didn't have a hip socket. It would always limp. It would always be lame. The little boy became excited.

"That is the little puppy that I want to buy."

The store owner said, "No, you don't want to buy that little dog. If you reallly want him, I'll give him to you."

The little boy got quite upset. He looked straight into the store owner's eyes, pointing his finger, and said, "I don't want you to give him to me. That little dog is worth every bit as much as all the other dogs and I'll pay full price. In fact, I'll give you $2.37 now, and 50 cents a month until I have him paid for."

The store owner countered, "You really don't want to buy this little dog. He is never going to be able to run and jump and play with you like the other puppies."

To this, the little boy reached down and rolled up his pant leg to reveal a badly twisted, crippled left leg supported by a big metal brace. He looked up at the store owner and softly replied,

"Well, I don't run so well myself, and the little puppy will need someone who understands!"

Dude, that is perfect...! A-1 for effort. Now what you have to do is decide just how close you want to get to the maker. And allow a lot of time, it will happen, and you will shit your pants. I like to talk to him or her as if they were my pal just watching me though life. There is that one time that shit hits the fan, it will be automatic to ask for help, He is there... so big time. But im just a piece of shit, what would I know.

RL - theologians (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) are one in the same. They believe in the same God. When they pass, they will all be trapped in the same guilded cage. Never to traverse and know the wonders of the Multiverse, nor their own true natures.

Do I believe in One God? No. Do I believe there are Many Gods? Yes. But even these God's and their followers must re-birth.

What is the supreme sate above Godhood? It is Supreme Sambodhi.

How do we reach Enlightenment and eventual Buddhahood? We will discuss this after we cover the Four Noble Truths in this Forum.

We don't all believe that the same thing happens after you die. As a Jew I believe that this is it. There is no heaven or hell, you just die, period.

That's what I think too. I have never seen any evidence that it is anything other than that and people have been looking for evidence for a long long time.

If the Maker wants to get close to me he/she's welcome to do so. But he/she's going to have ring the doorbell and come in like anyone else. And a call ahead of time would be nice.

I'm not an expert, but I'm not certain that this is theologically correct. This world/life is, certainly, the emphasis however, especially among the "non-orthodox" (but even with them).

To my knowledge, the 5 books of Moses say nothing about heaven, hell, or any direct information about an afterlife. Yes, some Rabbi's and the Talmud write about it, but since I don't consider them "official doctrine", I don't follow them. I stick to the Torah itself, which deals with our history and teaching us to be good people in the here and now. I believe that if there is a heaven, G-d will forgive me for not believing in it and I'll go there because I've been a good person. But I'm not holding my breathe (so to speak). I just want the peace of mind knowing that when I die, I will have done all I could to be a good person, raise good children, and attempt to leave a better world then I found.

Given that I'm not an expert, nor one to judge what anyone does in that regard, I think your emphasis makes a lot of sense. But I will tell you "the Rabbis" (as in the early ones, etc.) and the Talmud are "official doctrine." And much of what you do and believe, I'd bet, that comes from the Talmud rather than the 5 Books.

All that aside, there is absolutely no question that our actions in this life are the emphasis, and that one is not permitted (at least as I understand it) to wait for another time. Your emphasis, is, as I understand it, right in line.

Till 120.

Sorry about the late response to your reply.

It is a state of mind. It is being aware of all things around you at all times. Knowing the True Nature of Reality. How do we get there? Difficult to answer. Through knowledge, wisdom (and your own minds' eye). Many, many questions and answers to be found.



That is part of the Holy life. You obviously have great compassion.

Tyo... I hope you do not mind if I ask, but... are you Asian? I have a feeling that you have experienced the "boring" side of Buddhism. Born and raised, tales told, ancestors teaching the Deities instead of the knowledge in a form easily understood. Theistic belief instead of true reality.

I'm going to call you out now...

Which are your favorite Buddhas and Bodhisattvas?


Yes you are. I have a feeling you are awake... you just have a few specks of dust in your eye. Nothing a good brush off cant' take care of

When you start looking at how the human body is made, and how easily it can be damaged or destroyed. How it repairs itself, how does it know. Yes we can talk about the complex construction of our bodies and take it for granted. If you take it one step farther, what holds the molecules together, we keep on going farther into the molecule and finding even more parts to its makeup. Where did it come from, who made it, the big question is who made the maker, its the damn chicken or the egg.

I am DEFINITELY not a Quantum Physisyst. But all things come to an end, everything decays. We know that energy cannot be destroyed. It can only convert from Energy to Matter... Matter to Energy. It is cyclic. Decay and re-birth in what ever form you can possibly imagine.



In this reality... it is the strong and weak nuclear forces that bind these molcules together.



Strings... tiny bits of energy, vibrating like the strings made on a Cello. A cosmic symphony at the heart of all reality.

Religion is another tool used by humans to control its' subservient followers. Many of these follower's beliefs are based on the doctrine/dogma more so than the belief in a spiritual entity. Sad...

True... But Buddhism is a study of the mind, it is not Dogma. But I do believe that he discovered the path, and I love his path.

Even though Buddhist texts (when you read and study them) sound religious in nature... they are... and are not.

They are the study of the mind and of the Multiverse. Make of them as you will.

Is Buddhism a Religion?

Is Buddhism a Philosophy?

A spiritual path to Nibanna?

Yes... to all three quesitons.

Even the great Mathematician Albert Einstein said:

What nonsense. Atheism is simply "without a deity belief". Nothing more, nothing less. You can bring in sub-categories of course (strong, weak, atheist agnostic, etc.), but with Atheism there is nothing to convert someone "to". Atheists can go beyond Atheism and try to show religionists how delusional they are, but this is in hope of bringing them back to reality, to healing them of their mental illness.

Atheists post because they are attempting to help the religionists divest themselves of this delusional mental illness. Also, they must keep abreast of the dastardly doings of the believers in Iron Age superstitions, so as to not to have our nation be taken over by their cults.

Oxymoron.

I like your new Avatar Myoho!
It's like so totally cosmic Dude!

http://www.teenchallengeexposed.com/

Your first paragraph describes secular humanism, and has nothing to do with religious superstition. Stop quoting the holy Babble written by religionists who wanted to keep their jobs as pushers of the opiate, full of errors, forgeries and true horrors.

There is no god, so your blather about some invisible sky-pixie loving Atheists is garbage.

There was no historical jesus, and he said nothing. Again, all made up by the snake oil peddlers.

Faith is self-imposed belief without evidence, and despite evidence to the contrary. A form of mental illness. Remember, if there was ANY evidence for these wacky beliefs, one wouldn't need faith.

enufalrdy, I'm picking up on a little skepticism on your part when it comes to this religion stuff. I'm kinda that way too. Welcome to the board.

It often is. Btu then so is economics, politics, entertainment, style, social groups, social status and a lot of other thing.

A 'spiritual entity" is, or can be, one component of religion. But there are many legitimate aspects, including doctrine/dogma, tradition, peoplehood, community, etc.