When Fred Thompson spoke a couple of days ago at the RNC, he brought up the Honor Code that John McCain lived under, or by, at the Naval Academy. That he never broke it.

While the Naval Academy had and has a murkier interpretation of the Honor Code than West Point or the Air Force Academy, it is still an extremely critical core of the foundation of an officer, while serving and throughout their life.

Anyone sit appalled at how the Republicans so freely to put it mildly, tell lies? McCain and Palin are spouting things like the Ebay 'jet", that Obama has never reached across the isle, and so on.

The Honor Code is a HUGE deal to an officer, serving and former. Or should be.

Randi, you suppose you could drill into the core values of The Honor Code as it exists in the mind of McCain?

People can spin, rationalize, morph things until the cows come home... but if I had 20 seconds with Senator McCain, I would ask him what the Honor Code meant, and means to him, receive his answer, then unroll one or two, or ten lies that he and/or his people issue, and ask him how this works with his living The Honor Code.

Or, does the Honor Code get turned off after you leave the service? THEY, they meaning the republicans have made this central to their ethical framing of Mr. McCain. Personally, I think this is a HUGE and missing component in the assessment of the McCain construct.

Yeah, I know... this may sound convoluted, too complex... but I assure people, when framed properly, and I have done this repeatedly with people who did go through service academies, you cannot stipulate The Honor Code and outright lying without having the party freeze in their tracks. It matters. I personally would like to ask Mr. McCain how he could speak a lie and then place the core of his integrity on his military background, which at its core core is The Honor Code.

I have stood in the middle of West Point and the Air Force Academy and discussed the meaning of The Honor Code with cadets, with serving officers, with retirees. Admittedly not the Naval Academy. To a person, the epitome of failing to live the Honor Code is "that you can get someone killed". I spoke with a Marine recruit recently and he said that was the FIRST, MIDDLE and LAST thing his DI told him when he was about to enter bootcamp. DO NOT LIE, because that gets people killed. That is a mantra repeated to me when discussing this and appears to be the most fundamental way of drilling into a person's mind, civilian or otherwise, what this means. It is also impossible to pose this to someone who is wrapping themselves around their personal military history, which Mr. McCain is allowing to happen, and examine the things that are coming out of their mouth at the same time.

It just takes 20-30 seconds with Mr. McCain to ask these two questions. The answers would reveal far more than just identifying a lie. It would cut to the core....

Randi??

McCain doesn't care if his lie causes people to die.

Finally, a response. Was beginning to think these ideas are too complex for people.

Anyhoo... I don't disagree with you at all. McCain does not give a shit. And neither do most of the neocons that he is rapidly getting in bed with.

If one wants top consider precedents, something like the E-bay claim could probably be defended as falling short of violating the Honor Code. (She said she "put it on E-bay," not that it was sold there, or made a profit.)

But there are countless examples of words coming directly from McCain's mouth that are clearly violations - consider just the number of times he's been confronted with some statement he's alleged to have made, or a position he's alleged to have taken previously, only to have McCain insist that simply isn't true - it's a contortion of his record - whatever. "Where did you get THAT quote from?" And there's the video tape and news clip to refute him. Geez, consider JUST some of what McCain said to Tim Russert on MTP and you're going to see plenty enough to see him drummed out.

It doesn't get turned off if you continue to use it as some sort of "evidence" of honorable behavior, and that's certainly what McCain does routinely.



I'm not at all sure what you think is complex about this.

You DO understand how that's pretty insulting to folks who don't know you, right? Just want to make sure.

Here's a little tip from a habitually verbose over-writer. The longer the post, almost regardless of the POV and position taken, the less likely people are to read it and/or respond to it.

I also find that, very often when someone is kind enough to respond to one of my lengthier pontifications, they will frequently (without realizing it) restate in a sentence or three the point I took 2,200 words to ramble on about.

Yes, exactly my point. It doesn't get turned off, but McCain presses forward regardless. I would confront him on this given the opportunity.

Yup, that was my intent, to post an abrasive response. To provoke. Too much invective repeated here with little progressive analysis. I meant to post that... apologizies to anyone who was offended.

Also meant to post an over-long missive too. That was intentional. I appreciate the advice though. Having posted to some form of electronic forums, from bulletin boards in 1979 to present, I know what gets air play and what grates on people's nerves. Long missives for instance.

Oh well. There are many ways to chase people off and many more to provoke thought. Not claiming to have a corner on any of the methods...

Having said that, to my original point, I would place the Honor Code squarely in front of him and ask, what's up... especially now that they have made ethics and integrity one of the main issues.

OK, cool. Success # 1!



Doing well then! Success # 2



Oh, I promise, you DON'T have the corner on abrasive OR over-long.



And you believe this would suddenly capture the attention of the guy? I'd suggest in response that there ARE no magic words. He's no more likely to slap his forehead and shout, "What a fool I've been" than Anne Coulter is to drop her jaw and declare, "Jesus, I have been such a jackass, using lies, smears and offensive statements to sell books!"

At least in recent history, the only time I recall ever seeing a conversion like the one you seem to be wishing for, it was Lee Atwater who realized his folly. Then he died.

Just as you note McCain's made ethics and integrity one of his main issues, the man has also made "Change" a theme of his campaign. And still he's pledging to continue George Bush's war, and George Bush's economic policies. You think the Honor Code will turn him around?

You're adorable.

Is this the same honor code that allowed senior officers to participate in the Tailhook Scandal in which 83 women and 7 men stated that they had been victims of assault and sexual harassment?

An honor code is only effective if people have a sense of honor in the first place. In my experience if a person doesn't have any personal sense of honor, then they look at the words of a code and mentally sneer, parrot the words repeatedly, and ignore it.

Naw. I don't think this would make a dent in Gramps at all. It isn't intended for him. It's for those watching. Observing. These things are as scripted as can be so I am not deluding myself to think this would make a diff. I can muse however.

Having dealt with the honor code tho, those deer in the headlight moments that Bush, and McCain exhibit, are temporarily priceless. Especially when others are watching.

You could not be more correct. Parrot is the operative word.

To use your word, I have found the republican party to be one of growing party of parrots. And cowards. I live in an area steeped in a high military (6 bases, and huge retiree community) and high right wing evangelical population... having lots of engagement with this cross section, I know from whence I speak.

I attended a small party of a true cross section last eve. A couple couples from the above groups, as well as other couples from teaching, the arts, etc. I came away feeling like I was at a college graduation end of year party. Much of the conversation was about school, schooling, training, retraining. These were not college grads. These were people in their 50s, 60s, even 70s, who 10 years ago were flying high and at the top of their respective fields. Senior military, CFO of a defunct major computer company, and wives. Now talking about returning or having returned to school, and having to do this, to maintain their income levels. The teacher/artist group were less encumbered.

Most of them looked scared.

I tossed a little conversation grenade into the mix, bringing up the idea of The Honor Code, and lying, and the those in the know when stone silent. The peripheral people sensed it, did not pursue, but am sure this fomented some private conversations later.

Am not kidding myself however. Methinks McCain will win. I hate the thought. But the sheeple will remain stupid and susceptible in front of their new LCD TVs bought by their incentive checks. The zeitgeist has an eerie feel to it. Methinks the great american experiment has peaked and is soon to be headed over a slow cliff. We are about to sanctify fascism. I want Obama, and I am out there volunteering, but I do not think it will happen.

I know... too long a response. A measure of my disgust and disdain for the right wing sheeple.