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Hardball
Forgive me if this discussion is inappropriate for the board, but I need to vent somewhere. If the thread needs to be removed and/or I get disciplined for it, I understand.

My wife recently informed me that at the beginning of the year, the health insurance company she works for, AVMED Health Plans, will no longer be providing employer-sponsored insurance to its employees. Instead, they will be offering her to buy into a personal Health Savings Account.

This, just a few months before we were planning to take her to a surgeon for a procedure to correct her scoliosis -related spinal curvature. This decision by her employer just moved the time table up to ASAP.

I just need to scream quickly. . .

MY WIFE WORKS AT AN INSURANCE COMPANY THAT WONT PROVIDE FUCKING HEALTH INSURANCE!

Some information on Heath Savings Accounts
QUOTE
A Health Savings Account (HSA) is a tax-advantaged medical savings account available to taxpayers in the United States who are enrolled in a High Deductible Health Plan (HDHP). The funds contributed to the account are not subject to federal income tax at the time of deposit. Unlike a Flexible spending account (FSA), funds roll over and accumulate year over year if not spent. HSAs are owned by the individual, which differentiates them from the company-owned Health Reimbursement Arrangement (HRA) that is an alternate tax-deductible source of funds paired with HDHPs. Funds may be used to pay for qualified medical expenses at any time without federal tax liability. Withdrawals for non-medical expenses are treated very similarly to those in an IRA account in that they may provide tax advantages if taken after retirement age, and they incur penalties if taken earlier. These accounts are a component of consumer driven health care.
Proponents of HSAs believe that they are an important reform that will help reduce the growth of health care costs and increase the efficiency of the health care system. According to proponents, HSAs encourage saving for future health care expenses, allow the patient to receive needed care without a gate keeper to determine what benefits are allowed and make consumers more responsible for their own health care choices through the required High-Deductible Health Plan.
Some consumer organizations, such as Consumers Union, and many medical organizations, such as the American Public Health Association, have rejected HSAs because, in their opinion, they benefit only healthy, younger people and make the health care system more expensive for everyone else. According to Stanford economist Victor Fuchs, "The main effect of putting more of it on the consumer is to reduce the social redistributive element of insurance."[15]
Another criticism of the HSA model is that it disproportionately benefits wealthier individuals who can use the HSA account as a tax shelter, and can afford to pay the high-deductible using other savings. Critics contend that low-income people who are more likely to be uninsured, do not earn enough to benefit from the tax-breaks offered by HSAs. These tax breaks are too modest—when compared to the actual cost of insurance—to persuade significant numbers to buy this coverage.[16] There is also concern that the lower premiums of HSA-qualified high-deductible health plans might attract lower-income individuals who cannot afford to fund an HSA account, and may therefore forego necessary health care services under the high-deductible.

In testimony before the U.S. Senate Finance Committee's Subcommittee on Health in 2006, Commonwealth Fund Assistant Vice President Sara R. Collins, Ph.D., said that all evidence to date shows that health savings accounts and high-deductible health plans worsen, rather than improve, the U.S. health system's problems.[17]


HSAs were established as part of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act which was sponsored by Dennis Hastert and signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 8, 2003.


T
QUOTE
he Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act (Pub.L. 108-173, 117 Stat. 2066, also called Medicare Modernization Act or MMA) is a law of the United States which was enacted in 2003.[1] It produced the largest overhaul of Medicare in the public health program's 38-year history.
The MMA was signed by President George W. Bush on December 8, 2003, after passing in Congress by a close margin.
One month later, the ten-year cost estimate was boosted to $534 billion, up more than $100 billion over the figure presented by the Bush administration during Congressional debate. The inaccurate figure helped secure support from fiscally conservative Republicans who had promised to vote against the bill if it cost more than $400 billion. It was reported that an administration official, Thomas A. Scully, had concealed the higher estimate and threatened to fire Medicare Chief Actuary Richard Foster if he revealed it.[2] By early 2005, the White House Budget had increased the 10-year estimate to $1.2 trillion.[3]
Christine
I work for a HOSPITAL...I'm a healthcare worker...work with a doctor seeing patients 10 hours a day, 4 days a week....I have a $5000 deductible. I hope to god my son doesn't break his arm skateboarding....and I work in healthcare. Next year the cuts will be deeper...
Hardball
QUOTE (Christine @ Sep 7 2008, 11:40 PM) *
I work for a HOSPITAL...I'm a healthcare worker...work with a doctor seeing patients 10 hours a day, 4 days a week....I have a $5000 deductible. I hope to god my son doesn't break his arm skateboarding....and I work in healthcare. Next year the cuts will be deeper...


I'm sorry. Damn it I need a drink.
DoctorDi
QUOTE (Hardball @ Sep 7 2008, 11:36 PM) *
Forgive me if this discussion is inappropriate for the board, but I need to vent somewhere. If the thread needs to be removed and/or I get disciplined for it, I understand.

My wife recently informed me that at the beginning of the year, the health insurance company she works for, AVMED Health Plans, will no longer be providing employer-sponsored insurance to its employees. Instead, they will be offering her to buy into a personal Health Savings Account.

This, just a few months before we were planning to take her to a surgeon for a procedure to correct her scoliosis -related spinal curvature. This decision by her employer just moved the time table up to ASAP.

I just need to scream quickly. . .

MY WIFE WORKS AT AN INSURANCE COMPANY THAT WONT PROVIDE FUCKING HEALTH INSURANCE!

Some information on Heath Savings Accounts


HSAs were established as part of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act which was sponsored by Dennis Hastert and signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 8, 2003.

T

Ever get the feeling we are living in a bad chapter of Catch 22? This is astounding. I am so sorry.
NoYards
I'm so fucking glad I'm Canadian ... don't believe the BS about waiting lists and having bureaucrats between you and your doctor, it's not true ... single payer health care is not "socialized medicine".

The only thing you need to know is that Canadians with their "poor quality socialized medicine" live longer, with a better quality of life health wise, and have a lower infant mortality rate than Americans ... and we never go bankrupt from medical problems, hell, I could go for major surgery every day and not have to worry one bit about how much it will cost me or how it will effect my insurance rates.

It makes me so angry when I hear the BS you people have to go through down there simply becaue you get sick.
JRunRun
This shit gets more and more ridiculous everyday. I pray Obama gets elected and that he has the guts to shoot for a single payer system. HSA's are bad news... "Personal Responsibility" (co-pay) is bad news... Health Care Meltdown: Confronting The Myths and Fixing Our Failing System by Robert H. LeBow M.D. and C. Rocky White M.D. is a great book on this matter. (if you can find it anywhere sad.gif)
RandiLover
This is because rich people tell middle class just getting by, what to think. They believe it and then lose everything when shit happens. Welcome to sheeple land.
Wayne
Hardball, you deserve to scream. It's outrageous. We can only hope that this reality that people across the country are facing every day will wake up enough Independents and Moderate Republicans to put Obama and Biden in the White House with a filibuster proof majority.

No other industrialized country on earth has this problem. We don't have to stand for it. We can change it. The best thing we could do for the economy and small business is to move to universal single-payer health care. I think millions of people are afraid to start new businesses or change jobs because of the incredible risk of losing health care coverage.
JRunRun
QUOTE (RandiLover @ Sep 7 2008, 11:10 PM) *
This is because rich people tell middle class just getting by, what to think. They believe it and then lose everything when shit happens. Welcome to sheeple land.


It's more than that... We have been hit by an onslaught of propaganda from the AMA, pharmacueticals cos (obviously out of control... I've heard how they talk behind closed doors), and insurance companies. They all have one goal in mind... keep healthcare profit-based (which puts the actual CARE component at the bottom of the agenda.) It is hidden behind "personal responsibility" mantras, claims that we have the best healthcare system (we don't), and that all the overhead spent on healthcare goes into research (it doesn't), and that medicare is an example of how govt run healthcare can fail (it hasn't despite being taken advantage of by upcoding), and that a single payer system is SOCIALIZED medicine (it's not, the govt would be the insurance plan or regulate one private non-profit insurance co [the larger risk pool enables coverage of total population and demanding lower prices from pharmas that buy off and squash generic competition]... and the hospitals and healthcare workers would still work indepently outside of the govt.)
5by5
QUOTE (Hardball @ Sep 7 2008, 08:36 PM) *
Forgive me if this discussion is inappropriate for the board, but I need to vent somewhere.

Oh no honey. This discussion couldn't be MORE appropriate for this board.

QUOTE (Hardball @ Sep 7 2008, 08:36 PM) *
MY WIFE WORKS AT AN INSURANCE COMPANY THAT WONT PROVIDE FUCKING HEALTH INSURANCE!

Now you know why I'm no longer a fan of irony.

That's ridiculous, I'm so sorry you and your family are going through this.

For myself, as a small business owner and a contractor for the past Bush Economy nightmare 8 years, I haven't had health care or insurance of any kind. So I hear ya.

And if you've seen the movie "Sicko", you know that all this no-healthcare BS began with Nixon, so there is little reason to believe the Republicans who created this nightmare are gonna get us out of it. This is why we need not just the White House, but a Democratic Super-Majority in both houses of Congress too. We've got to end Republican obstructionism and get this bitch FIXED.
LakeEffect2
All I can say is I'm so sorry to hear that you'll be having to get put into that crappy plan!! Hope your wife gets her medical work done real soon!

This seems to be the way it's starting to go all over the place here in the USA, where according to the right wing hate talk shows, we have the BEST health plans on this planet...yeah sure.

I so envy Canadians, that they get coverage no matter what and I personally have never heard a single Canadian I know complain & say the USA system is better.

And as for that story about LONG waiting to have procedures done in Canada, well I got a newsflash for all you, unless your condition is critical, or if you don't have a top notch doctor, you'll probably wait awhile to go see a specialist right here in the USA, and that's not just a long wait in the office but a long wait just to get an appointment.

What the hell is wrong with having good health coverage for everyone here in the USA???
Why would people oppose this?
I'm more than willing to use some of my tax dollars to make sure everyone is covered
JRunRun
QUOTE (LakeEffect2 @ Sep 8 2008, 05:36 AM) *
All I can say is I'm so sorry to hear that you'll be having to get put into that crappy plan!! Hope your wife gets her medical work done real soon!

This seems to be the way it's starting to go all over the place here in the USA, where according to the right wing hate talk shows, we have the BEST health plans on this planet...yeah sure.

I so envy Canadians, that they get coverage no matter what and I personally have never heard a single Canadian I know complain & say the USA system is better.

And as for that story about LONG waiting to have procedures done in Canada, well I got a newsflash for all you, unless your condition is critical, or if you don't have a top notch doctor, you'll probably wait awhile to go see a specialist right here in the USA, and that's not just a long wait in the office but a long wait just to get an appointment.

What the hell is wrong with having good health coverage for everyone here in the USA???
Why would people oppose this?
I'm more than willing to use some of my tax dollars to make sure everyone is covered


You'd actually end up paying less under a single payer system if you already have insurance because the risk pool would be so broad, it wouldn't be profit based, the overhead for admin alone would reduce healthcare costs approx. 25%, and hospitals wouldn't be charging those with insurance more to cover those at-risk-of-not-paying patients... Among other reasons.
jettibo
QUOTE (Christine @ Sep 7 2008, 11:40 PM) *
I work for a HOSPITAL...I'm a healthcare worker...work with a doctor seeing patients 10 hours a day, 4 days a week....I have a $5000 deductible. I hope to god my son doesn't break his arm skateboarding....and I work in healthcare. Next year the cuts will be deeper...


My 3 year old daughter broke her arm 3 weeks ago and she wasn't even doing anything that dangerous! She was on one of those inflatable slides and rolled a few times, bounced and fell on her arm. She was still on the inflatable part! So even when you THINK they should be fine they manage to break bones (in her case bend AND break). Luckily we have good insurance, because we were out of town and 30 minutes from the hospital so we also called an ambulance, she then had to go back into the hospital so they could put her under anesthesia to straighten the arm out (BTW, they left her arm bent for THREE DAYS and we finally had to switch Dr.s to get it attended to because they wanted to put it off some more). The costs are already totaling over $2300 and that's without knowing what the ER or OR fees are going to be, only the ambulance and the Orthopedic. So something tells me those are the cheapest parts of the equation. Hopefully we won't have to pay more than $100-200.
jettibo
Oh yeah, and on the US being the best. Well, if you are a woman who has ever had a baby in the US and actually want something other than a walk in hook me up type of birth you will find out REAL quick how big a bully the Dr.s and nurses can be (not that they all are mind you). AND our maternal and infant mortality and morbidity rates are the second worst in the industrialized world!!! Our OBs in this country do medical procedures routinely that are considered unnecessary, at best. Their procedures are not research based, in fact much research shows many of procedures to be the OPPOSITE of what should be done, but instead are CONVENIENCE based (for the Dr. of course, not the woman). You want to see sexism in action go to a delivery ward near you and spend a few days (you MIGHT run into a mom strong enough to say NO to them and get the birth SHE wants).
toreyj01
QUOTE (jettibo @ Sep 8 2008, 09:55 AM) *
Oh yeah, and on the US being the best. Well, if you are a woman who has ever had a baby in the US and actually want something other than a walk in hook me up type of birth you will find out REAL quick how big a bully the Dr.s and nurses can be (not that they all are mind you). AND our maternal and infant mortality and morbidity rates are the second worst in the industrialized world!!! Our OBs in this country do medical procedures routinely that are considered unnecessary, at best. Their procedures are not research based, in fact much research shows many of procedures to be the OPPOSITE of what should be done, but instead are CONVENIENCE based (for the Dr. of course, not the woman). You want to see sexism in action go to a delivery ward near you and spend a few days (you MIGHT run into a mom strong enough to say NO to them and get the birth SHE wants).


When OBs no longer have to fear being sued for every birth they attend then you can expect more choice in how they deliver the children.

Right now, any OB is a saint for the crap they have to wade through and the malpractice they have to carry. They literally have no choice in their practices because if everything isn't in a set order they are accused of not following standard of care.

So, in short, you are wrong on this. Sorry.

Any universal health plan must implement meaningful tort reform for medicine. Its such an enormous burden to practice when your hands are so tied.
Laura
QUOTE (Hardball @ Sep 7 2008, 11:36 PM) *
Forgive me if this discussion is inappropriate for the board, but I need to vent somewhere. If the thread needs to be removed and/or I get disciplined for it, I understand.

My wife recently informed me that at the beginning of the year, the health insurance company she works for, AVMED Health Plans, will no longer be providing employer-sponsored insurance to its employees. Instead, they will be offering her to buy into a personal Health Savings Account.

This, just a few months before we were planning to take her to a surgeon for a procedure to correct her scoliosis -related spinal curvature. This decision by her employer just moved the time table up to ASAP.

I just need to scream quickly. . .

MY WIFE WORKS AT AN INSURANCE COMPANY THAT WONT PROVIDE FUCKING HEALTH INSURANCE!

Some information on Heath Savings Accounts


HSAs were established as part of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act which was sponsored by Dennis Hastert and signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 8, 2003.


T


wow....I am so sorry for your troubles...
you can vent here anytime you want! I hope you find a solution....
jettibo
QUOTE (toreyj01 @ Sep 8 2008, 12:10 PM) *
When OBs no longer have to fear being sued for every birth they attend then you can expect more choice in how they deliver the children.

Right now, any OB is a saint for the crap they have to wade through and the malpractice they have to carry. They literally have no choice in their practices because if everything isn't in a set order they are accused of not following standard of care.

So, in short, you are wrong on this. Sorry.

Any universal health plan must implement meaningful tort reform for medicine. Its such an enormous burden to practice when your hands are so tied.


How am I wrong, specifically? I know malpractice is one of the major reasons for this and am on political to help with that as well, but I can tell you that they do a TREMENDOUS amount of stuff for their own personal convenience. Some examples:

1) The WORST position to labor and push in is on your back, but the OB can't "see well enough", even though my midwife can see just fine if you are on your hands and knees. Laboring on your back prevents your pelvis from opening fully and is working against gravity causing the woman to become exhausted from extended periods of pushing and increasing the chance of c-section.

QUOTE
Cephalopelvic disproportion (CPD) is another reason for surgical births. Baby is too big to pass through the pelvic outlet. Laboring and delivering in a more upright position, namely squatting, can enlarge the pelvic outlet, often allowing even a small mommy to deliver a big baby (See related section "7 Ways to Boost a Natural Delivery")

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/T010800.asp#T012000


2) Inductions and c-sections increase on Fridays so that OBs can get them out of the way for their weekend. Anecdotally, I know many women who's OBs have flat out told them to plan c-sections and inductions at certain dates and times because they have golf games or vacation plans.

3) For YEARS OBs used Cytotec to induce and increase contractions. In fact, it is regularly used at the hospital down the road from me still. Women are guinea pigs for labor induction meds.

QUOTE
Currently, the FDA has not approved Cytotec for use as a labor-inducing agent. While it has been studied and seems to be effective for select patients, some hospital pharmacies are refusing to dispense Cytotec for obstetrical use. Discussion between the FDA and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) on the use and safety of Cytotec continues.

Editor's note: The safety of Cytotec for use in labor induction is very controversial (See Cytotec: Dangerous experiment or panacea? at Salon.com). Not only has this drug not been approved for this use by the FDA, but the manufacturer also discourages it.

http://pregnancyandbaby.com/pregnancy/baby...Cytotec-143.htm

4) Many OBs and hospitals put a 12 hour time limit on laboring women. If you can't progress to pushing in that time they start induction meds, if you don't progress fast enough after that they do a c-section. First time moms RARELY have labors that fast. My first child was 14 hours and that was FAST. BTW, induction meds increase the pressure of the contractions, thus increasing the chance of fetal distress.

QUOTE
Failure to progress accounts for around 30 percent of cesarean deliveries. It means that labor doesn't progress according to the usual timetable. For various reasons the cervix does not open enough and/or the baby does not descend. Some cases of failure to progress cannot be avoided, such as a very short cord. Most cases, though, are due to inadequate support for the laboring woman and violation of the basic physiology of labor. Of all the reasons for a cesarean, "failure to progress" is the most under your control. No other system in your body "fails" 25 percent of the time. Why should your "delivery" system? Emotional and physical support for the mother, walking during labor, upright pushing, along with the prudent use of medication and technology will help labor progress by increasing the efficiency of uterine contractions rather than interfering with them.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/T010800.asp#T012000

5) There are STILL OBs out there that perform regular episiotomies. Even after the research shows that it causes more trauma to the mother. Episiotomies would be unnecessary if the OBs would bother to learn perineal message and allow laboring and pushing in other positions, like the midwives do.
http://www.efn.org/~djz/birth/obmyth/epis.html

6) There is quite a bit on uncertainty as to whether ultrasounds are safe for the fetus, but rather than restrict use OBs are increasing the use to staggering numbers.

QUOTE
A United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) report1 states that ultrasound has been used for many years with no obvious detrimental effects. Nevertheless, current evidence is considered insufficient to justify an unqualified acceptance of ultrasound safety. The FDA report recommends that ultrasound be used only when a diagnostic benefit is likely, and that exposure should be limited to that required to produce the needed information.

The World Health Organization (WHO) of the United Nations, in its report on ultrasound,2 recommends prudence in ultrasound exposure to human subjects but agrees that benefits outweigh any presumed risks. The WHO report states that patients should be examined with ultrasound only for valid clinical reasons.

http://www.aium.org/patient/aboutexam/safety.asp

Yet OBs use ultrasounds for everything. With my first the OB used the ultrasound several times just to see the heartbeat. There was no other reason for it and she could hear it just fine with the fetoscope.

7) Cesareans KILL more mothers than vaginal deliveries. Yet OBs keep telling moms that they are better off with them. Our rate of cesareans is 3 TIMES what the WHO recommends. http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/dh/4022

So while they are busy looking after their asses they are killing and maiming women. Not to mention using us as guinea pigs, treating us like children, and taking over our bodies at a time when we need the MOST control of our bodies. Having a baby is NOT a medical event.
DonShafer
This is one of those instances when you want to punch the next Reich-Winger that runs that "Why do people feel entitled to healthcare in this country" line.
Insurance premiums are nothing more than taxation without representation.
MikeK
Bureaucracy and the practice of medicine are totally incompatible. As it presently exists the two entities are analogous to oil and water which are constantly being stirred to make them appear compatible.

I once pulled a hangnail which caused an infection in a finger. The swelling and discomfort began late on a Friday afternoon which made it impossible to find a private physician. My only option was the dreaded emergency ward of a local hospital.

I arrived at the emergency ward at around 6PM and took my place at the end of long line of pathetic-looking wretches, every one of whom appeared to have far more serious problems than mine, and by the time I was interviewed by a clerical (around 8PM) my finger had swollen to the size of a bright red sausage and was throbbing. After an incredibly redundant interview I was led to an adjoining ward and made to lie on a bed until an overworked MD got around to doing what any nurse or paramedic could have done.

All I needed was a prescription for penicillin. I knew this because I'd had the same problem when I was in the Marine Corps back in the fifties. But in the Corps there was no fifteen minute interview. I walked into Sick Bay, a Navy medical corpsman asked me what was wrong. I showed him my finger. He opened a cabinet, poured some penicillin tablets into a little box on which he wrote, "Two now. One every four hours 'til gone. Take them all!"

That was it. Total time, maybe ten minutes. Three hours later the swelling was gone. Next day the infection was gone.

Another time, while on field maneuvers in the Philippines, a huge, throbbing boil arose on an inner thigh, which made it hard to walk and/or operate my bulldozer. A Navy Corpsman, who appeared to be around my own age, gave me a shot of novocaine, lanced the boil, put a drain in it, bandaged it and gave me a shot of penicillin. This was done in a little squad tent in the boondocks. Next morning I was good as new.

If I had taken that problem to a contemporary emergency ward it would have turned into a major bureaucratic production, attended by an MD, taking hours and hours and ending up costing hundreds if not thousands of dollars, the main beneficiary being the health insurance industry.

I have cited relatively minor medical problems. If my problems were more serious, or beyond the ability of the Corpsmen to diagnose and treat, I would have been attended by a physician. But I can attest that my own experience and observations over four years convinced me beyond any doubt that the Navy medics were eminently competent and perfectly capable of diagnosing and treating the vast majority of Sick Bay cases, which they did every day of the week.

The point I wish to make here is it there is no need for every minor medical problem that shows up at an emergency ward to become a bureaucratic production and be attended by an MD. I would have been happy to sign a waiver at the emergency ward holding the hospital blameless for any complications arising from treatment by a nurse-practicioner or other, non-physician medic.

Recalling the proficiency of the medical corpsmen who treated my minor problems, what happens to all this talent when these people return to civilian life? It seems like a major waste if they are not applied to a situation which seems to desperately in need of their skills.

I haven't been to an emergency ward lately but I understand that most of them are overwhelmed by endless lines of indigent, the uninsured and, increasingly, illegal immigrants -- every one of whom is put through the same largely redundant, wasteful process, when all they really need is the attention of a paramedic. If that level of attention is good enough for our military personnel it certainly is good enough for civilians with minor problems.



NoYards
In Canada we have emergency rooms as well, and let me be clear, if you go there for minor problems you will wait ... hell, even if you go there with a broken bone or an open wound that doesn't look life threatening, you will still wait. That's the nature of an emergency room, the majority of people with minor problems go to their family doctors or walk in clinics, people with some confidence that they are not going to die without being hooked up to a million dollars of medical equipment can go to a walk in clinic or their family doctor ... an emergency room is no place to go if you can possibly help it.

That said, there are times you're best option is still the emergency room.

The last time I was to an emergency room in Canada was about 6 months ago for my wife who took an asthma attack ... we got there and were met by the triage nurse ... she first hooked my wife up to a machine to check blood pressure and heart rates and some other basic tests, and while she was hooked to the machine and it was gathering its information she took our name and contact information and health card number and asked us actual questions about her condition ... that took about 5 minutes and we were on our way to the waiting area and told to contact the nurse if the condition changed.

Now we waited for a long time (5 plus hours) but had the situation been a real crisis and the triage station had determined such a situation, we would have been put to the head of the line (the reason we waited 6 hours was exactly for that reason as others who came in after us with much more serious conditions were put ahead of us.) I had ask the nurse how long we would have to wait and she told us up front that if no serious cases came in before us it would be about 45 minutes, but that in all likelihood the wait would be much longer, but there was no way to predict just how long ... I could see the triage station from the waiting room, and I totally agree with their decisions ... my wife was in a bit of discomfort, but she could certainly wait while they looked after some real serious cases.

The point being that when you have a single payer government insurance, that covers everyone, there is no need to waste time and resources on "doing corporate business" ... hell, except for the waiting for serious cases I could have a heat attack and make it through the hospital emergency system in Canada quicker than I could buy a cell phone service plan ... there would most certainly be far less paper work.
toreyj01
QUOTE (jettibo @ Sep 8 2008, 01:21 PM) *
1) The WORST position to labor and push in is on your back, but the OB can't "see well enough", even though my midwife can see just fine if you are on your hands and knees. Laboring on your back prevents your pelvis from opening fully and is working against gravity causing the woman to become exhausted from extended periods of pushing and increasing the chance of c-section.

2. Inductions and c-sections increase on Fridays so that OBs can get them out of the way for their weekend. Anecdotally, I know many women who's OBs have flat out told them to plan c-sections and inductions at certain dates and times because they have golf games or vacation plans.

3) For YEARS OBs used Cytotec to induce and increase contractions. In fact, it is regularly used at the hospital down the road from me still. Women are guinea pigs for labor induction meds.

4) Many OBs and hospitals put a 12 hour time limit on laboring women. If you can't progress to pushing in that time they start induction meds, if you don't progress fast enough after that they do a c-section. First time moms RARELY have labors that fast. My first child was 14 hours and that was FAST. BTW, induction meds increase the pressure of the contractions, thus increasing the chance of fetal distress.

5) There are STILL OBs out there that perform regular episiotomies. Even after the research shows that it causes more trauma to the mother. Episiotomies would be unnecessary if the OBs would bother to learn perineal message and allow laboring and pushing in other positions, like the midwives do.

6) There is quite a bit on uncertainty as to whether ultrasounds are safe for the fetus, but rather than restrict use OBs are increasing the use to staggering numbers. Yet OBs use ultrasounds for everything. With my first the OB used the ultrasound several times just to see the heartbeat. There was no other reason for it and she could hear it just fine with the fetoscope.

7) Cesareans KILL more mothers than vaginal deliveries. Yet OBs keep telling moms that they are better off with them. Our rate of cesareans is 3 TIMES what the WHO recommends. http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/dh/4022

So while they are busy looking after their asses they are killing and maiming women. Not to mention using us as guinea pigs, treating us like children, and taking over our bodies at a time when we need the MOST control of our bodies. Having a baby is NOT a medical event.


My specialty is not OB but for what its worth:

1. If the OB cannot see well enough and something goes wrong, if the baby is not well, they can and will be sued for not following standard of care, which is to see as well as possible.
2. If the baby does not come out fast enough and the baby is not well, they can and will be sued for not following standard of care, which is to have the delivery be as fast as possible. There are lawyers begging for work in this field, a sick baby is a payday to a lawyer, no matter how hard the OB tried to do the right thing.
3. See above for reason to induce.
4. See above for slow labor.
5. See above for episiotomies
6. See above for Ultrasound
7. See above for C Sections

Maiming and killing mothers? Be serious, please. Look, every child that comes out with so much as a blemish can be grounds to take the OB to court, god forbid. Standard of care is a dirty word, what it means is that if an option was available and you did not use it, you are negligent.

Like C Sections, like ultrasound, like episiotomies.

Look, you could have the perfect OB, having the mother in the perfect position, patiently working with the parent and using all the appropriate techniques to avoid episiotomies or C Section. If that child does not do well, they are negligent, even if they did everything right and appropriate, not a single error or omission. That is the way things are, and its terrible.

Millions of tests and procedures are done every year that could have been delayed or omitted but was instead performed because it is standard of care. It costs the health system so much money to have this spectre hanging over us, and in truth there are far more good people in medicine than bad.

We are not butchers, we care, but our hands are tied by the standards of care of our specialty and derivation from the protocol can mean financial hardship or even loss of priveleges or license. Even if we did everything right and proper and caring.

You want this kind of care? Don't you think the OB wants the same bloody thing?

Tort reform or it doesn't happen. I have seen women high on crack come in for a delivery, never consulting a physician once during the pregnancy, who deliver an ill baby and sue the hospital for millions.

And win.
MikeK
QUOTE (NoYards @ Sep 8 2008, 03:25 PM) *
In Canada we have emergency rooms as well, and let me be clear, if you go there for minor problems you will wait ... hell, even if you go there with a broken bone or an open wound that doesn't look life threatening, you will still wait. [...]

NoYards,

If you walk in with an infected finger is it necessary for you to be treated by an MD, or can a paramedic take care of something that minor?

Randys
QUOTE (toreyj01 @ Sep 8 2008, 09:10 AM) *
Any universal health plan must implement meaningful tort reform for medicine. Its such an enormous burden to practice when your hands are so tied.

agreed, we have that now in california, i am pretty sure...

also, hsa's are health insurance...i didnt read his entire post, but our employees have an hsa acct they pay into and up to $2400 a year they pay out of that account towards health costs and then the blue cross kicks in after that...so our poster may be confused...
Morgan
They're going to move you all over to social programs...as the employers drop you off, the Govt will gather you up. You won't have any choices in medical care. But, it's better than nothing, right?
2zz
I work at one of America's best companies and just got diagnosed with breast cancer a little over a month ago. My greatest fear is not of dying of cancer. Odds are I will beat it. I livei n fear, though, of losing my job (inadvertantly because of cancer???) and getting left to fend for myself in our non-iversal health care system until I can make it to Medicare in 12 years. I've been self-employed and paid my own health insurance way for many many years. But the difference between a company plan and an individual plan is night and day. We don't have a valid system in America, and healthcare was my hot button before my diagnosis!
Pray for us all!
MikeK
QUOTE (Morgan @ Sep 8 2008, 09:14 PM) *
They're going to move you all over to social programs...as the employers drop you off, the Govt will gather you up. You won't have any choices in medical care. But, it's better than nothing, right?


As long as there are adequate controls over the quality and ethical distribution of treatment, such as was provided to military personnel according to my recollection of it in the 1950s, it would be far better than nothing. Socialistic in nature and devoid of redundant frills but perfectly adequate -- and a godsend for those who cannot otherwise afford insurance or to pay for treatment of catastrophic illness or injuries.
LibLaw
QUOTE (Hardball @ Sep 7 2008, 11:36 PM) *
Forgive me if this discussion is inappropriate for the board, but I need to vent somewhere. If the thread needs to be removed and/or I get disciplined for it, I understand.

My wife recently informed me that at the beginning of the year, the health insurance company she works for, AVMED Health Plans, will no longer be providing employer-sponsored insurance to its employees. Instead, they will be offering her to buy into a personal Health Savings Account.

This, just a few months before we were planning to take her to a surgeon for a procedure to correct her scoliosis -related spinal curvature. This decision by her employer just moved the time table up to ASAP.

I just need to scream quickly. . .

MY WIFE WORKS AT AN INSURANCE COMPANY THAT WONT PROVIDE FUCKING HEALTH INSURANCE!

Some information on Heath Savings Accounts


HSAs were established as part of the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act which was sponsored by Dennis Hastert and signed into law by President George W. Bush on December 8, 2003.


T



it seems to be a trend with the health industry. My wife works for a company that bills for xray readers and anesthetists. they buy health insurance from Anthem, Anthem came up with the same thing however my wife was able to keep her health care plan but now has to pay for it.
There is a way around this but it's going to be a war to get it done. Hospital administration is a stubborn bunch. With the government working as the buying group and our taxes paying the bills our contribution wouldn't be near what it is now and the advantages would be enormous.
Ishmael
Janet was an office nurse and dermatological surgical assistant for 20 years and got Hepatitis C as one of the extra benefits of the job. She went on the Rebatron combo therapy twice for a year each time. Not only did the treatment not cure the virus, but it caused her body to make all kinds of new blood vessels in her eyes and brain where none were needed. This led to hundreds of mini-strokes for which there is no treatment. The only health insurance she ever had was from my employers. Now that I'm out of work, our COBRA coverage ran out and we got nothing. She's also insulin-dependant diabetic but I have her insulin use down to 20-30 units a day now from over double that. Oh, did I mention that the Doc who pushed the therapy on her received $1500 a pop in kickbacks for every patient he signed up for the "Experimental"(read no lawsuit) therapy from Scheering? And people wonder why I feel like buying 1 share of Scheering stock and showing up at the annual stockholders' meeting with my AK-47. After all, who is ultimately responsible for the bad acts of corporations but the management team and the stockholders that vote their authority?
NoYards
QUOTE (MikeK @ Sep 8 2008, 06:54 PM) *
NoYards,

If you walk in with an infected finger is it necessary for you to be treated by an MD, or can a paramedic take care of something that minor?


You will have to see a doctor whether you go to a hospital, clinic, or family doctors. I can't say for sure, and I don't want to speak for all of Canada, but here in Toronto you can walk into any of the multitude of the walk-in health clinics and see a doctor, usually within 1/2 an hour, or if they are really busy you may have to wait an hour or two. Same thing applies as far as "paper work" ... they ask for your health card, and if it's your first visit to the clinic they have you fill out a page worth of personal contact information and some basic medical information ... no financial information, no credit checks, no insurance forms, no cash transactions, or worries that your problem might not be covered. If they have to give you medication at the hospital or doctors office it's all covered and you don't see the bill unless it's just for informational purposes (I remember about 15 years ago I broke my finger and went to the hospital. The Conservatives were in power then and they thought that if we saw the bill it would cause us to use the medical system less, so they were giving people itemized bills for informational purposes ... it didn't cause people to stay away from the hospital when they broke their bones, and the bills cost money to print out for the patients, so they've stopped doing that AFAIK.)

There may still be some people who go to the emergency room for colds, and minor infections, but if you do that you're out of your freaken mind, as the wait will probably be measured on a calendar ... The triage nurse would probably just give you a map to the closest clinic and suggest that you go there.
USA1
Sorry to hear that but ... welcome to Corporate America's GOP Party ... A Party at YOUR EXPENSE !!!

jettibo
QUOTE (MikeK @ Sep 8 2008, 03:00 PM) *
Bureaucracy and the practice of medicine are totally incompatible. As it presently exists the two entities are analogous to oil and water which are constantly being stirred to make them appear compatible.

I once pulled a hangnail which caused an infection in a finger. The swelling and discomfort began late on a Friday afternoon which made it impossible to find a private physician. My only option was the dreaded emergency ward of a local hospital.

I arrived at the emergency ward at around 6PM and took my place at the end of long line of pathetic-looking wretches, every one of whom appeared to have far more serious problems than mine, and by the time I was interviewed by a clerical (around 8PM) my finger had swollen to the size of a bright red sausage and was throbbing. After an incredibly redundant interview I was led to an adjoining ward and made to lie on a bed until an overworked MD got around to doing what any nurse or paramedic could have done.

All I needed was a prescription for penicillin. I knew this because I'd had the same problem when I was in the Marine Corps back in the fifties. But in the Corps there was no fifteen minute interview. I walked into Sick Bay, a Navy medical corpsman asked me what was wrong. I showed him my finger. He opened a cabinet, poured some penicillin tablets into a little box on which he wrote, "Two now. One every four hours 'til gone. Take them all!"

That was it. Total time, maybe ten minutes. Three hours later the swelling was gone. Next day the infection was gone.

Another time, while on field maneuvers in the Philippines, a huge, throbbing boil arose on an inner thigh, which made it hard to walk and/or operate my bulldozer. A Navy Corpsman, who appeared to be around my own age, gave me a shot of novocaine, lanced the boil, put a drain in it, bandaged it and gave me a shot of penicillin. This was done in a little squad tent in the boondocks. Next morning I was good as new.

If I had taken that problem to a contemporary emergency ward it would have turned into a major bureaucratic production, attended by an MD, taking hours and hours and ending up costing hundreds if not thousands of dollars, the main beneficiary being the health insurance industry.

I have cited relatively minor medical problems. If my problems were more serious, or beyond the ability of the Corpsmen to diagnose and treat, I would have been attended by a physician. But I can attest that my own experience and observations over four years convinced me beyond any doubt that the Navy medics were eminently competent and perfectly capable of diagnosing and treating the vast majority of Sick Bay cases, which they did every day of the week.

The point I wish to make here is it there is no need for every minor medical problem that shows up at an emergency ward to become a bureaucratic production and be attended by an MD. I would have been happy to sign a waiver at the emergency ward holding the hospital blameless for any complications arising from treatment by a nurse-practicioner or other, non-physician medic.

Recalling the proficiency of the medical corpsmen who treated my minor problems, what happens to all this talent when these people return to civilian life? It seems like a major waste if they are not applied to a situation which seems to desperately in need of their skills.

I haven't been to an emergency ward lately but I understand that most of them are overwhelmed by endless lines of indigent, the uninsured and, increasingly, illegal immigrants -- every one of whom is put through the same largely redundant, wasteful process, when all they really need is the attention of a paramedic. If that level of attention is good enough for our military personnel it certainly is good enough for civilians with minor problems.


I agree that nurses, PAs and NPs are great at doing the vast majority of work in the Dr.'s office. I do disagree that it's ALL the insurance fault, the Dr.s are HAPPY to be involved in the bureaucracy process. Try having legislation changed to give nurses and PAs more legal rights to do more work and the AMA and every other Dr.s organizations get involved and try to hault the process. They WANT the money they make from walking into the room and telling you what the nurse could have. My nurse friend said that the Dr.s only start to give in on those legislations that they tire of doing for themselves, like taking blood pressure. We are in a fight in our state for the right for educated and nationally certified midwives (CPMs) to practice and the right for nurse midwives (CNMs) to work without physician over sight. It's a horrible process to be constantly trying to be trying to push against the AMA and the ACOG. AND they are definitely the ones who are trying the hardest to stop us, some of the insurance lobbyist love our work because it's cheaper for them!
pi4peasants
[As a former healthcare worker, I know what they may be going through. My "health benefits" were also cut. Yes, from a healthcare company. So, I see how some here may eny Canada. They have a country that is responsible. Responsible citizens take care of the health and wellbeing of their countrymen and find a way to pay for it. We have to pay the premiums, the Doctors and health professionals, then the deductible, the transportation to far away hospitals in some cases, and the home health care, and the pharmacy. On top of it all we still get medicare tax deducted from most of our pay.

STILL, we get sicker and more broke! If we only had enough money to get regular checkups and exams to prevent a lot of the health problems from escalating.

WTF would happen if we were caught in a pandemic?

I really don't believe any political party is the answer whether GOP or Democratic. It's up to the citizens to stand up and come into accordance with the health care providers. To hell with Health Insurance Corporate lobbying getting in the middle of patients and doctors.
NoYards
QUOTE (Morgan @ Sep 8 2008, 09:14 PM) *
They're going to move you all over to social programs...as the employers drop you off, the Govt will gather you up. You won't have any choices in medical care. But, it's better than nothing, right?


That's exactly why the "mixed" system doesn't work (unless your rich.) But. like you said, it's probably better than nothing, but from my perspective it sounds pretty primitive that your basic health care should be better or worst based on your job and salary.

One of the "weaknesses" claimed of the Canadian system is "choice" ... that is mostly a false claim.

I can go to any hospital, any clinic, and any GP that is accepting new patients ... doctors and clinics only refuse to take new patients because they have too many regular patients and never because you have the wrong type of coverage (there is only one kind of coverage.)

The only limitation is in seeing a specialist. You have to be referred by a GP in order to see a specialist, but I have never had a problem getting referred, nor do I know anyone who has had such a problem ... If there is a conflict between your GP and yourself on whether to see a specialist, then your opinion matters more, and the doctor will in all likelihood refer you upon request ... failing that you just go to another doctor and make the same request.

If you don't like your GP, or the specialist you are referred to, then just go to another GP, or request a new referral.

Granted, if you are living out in the country there may not be all the options you have in the cities unless you are willing to travel, but that's just the nature of the differences between urban and rural areas.

Just to note, Canadian law does not prevent the medical industry from creating a completely private system along side the public system. The only thing the law says is that if you do so your patients must pay their own way (your patients will be able to deduct your medical expenses, so paying double is not an issue for those patients who might want to go that route) So far I know of only 2 such clinics in Canada. That's where the rich people go, mostly for the "status" of using ming dynasty bed-pans and bragging rights about how much it cost to have their hip replaced. Other than that, "outcomes" aren't any better than most public hospitals.
jettibo
QUOTE (toreyj01 @ Sep 8 2008, 04:17 PM) *
My specialty is not OB but for what its worth:

1. If the OB cannot see well enough and something goes wrong, if the baby is not well, they can and will be sued for not following standard of care, which is to see as well as possible.
2. If the baby does not come out fast enough and the baby is not well, they can and will be sued for not following standard of care, which is to have the delivery be as fast as possible. There are lawyers begging for work in this field, a sick baby is a payday to a lawyer, no matter how hard the OB tried to do the right thing.
3. See above for reason to induce.
4. See above for slow labor.
5. See above for episiotomies
6. See above for Ultrasound
7. See above for C Sections

Maiming and killing mothers? Be serious, please. Look, every child that comes out with so much as a blemish can be grounds to take the OB to court, god forbid. Standard of care is a dirty word, what it means is that if an option was available and you did not use it, you are negligent.

Like C Sections, like ultrasound, like episiotomies.

Look, you could have the perfect OB, having the mother in the perfect position, patiently working with the parent and using all the appropriate techniques to avoid episiotomies or C Section. If that child does not do well, they are negligent, even if they did everything right and appropriate, not a single error or omission. That is the way things are, and its terrible.

Millions of tests and procedures are done every year that could have been delayed or omitted but was instead performed because it is standard of care. It costs the health system so much money to have this spectre hanging over us, and in truth there are far more good people in medicine than bad.

We are not butchers, we care, but our hands are tied by the standards of care of our specialty and derivation from the protocol can mean financial hardship or even loss of priveleges or license. Even if we did everything right and proper and caring.

You want this kind of care? Don't you think the OB wants the same bloody thing?

Tort reform or it doesn't happen. I have seen women high on crack come in for a delivery, never consulting a physician once during the pregnancy, who deliver an ill baby and sue the hospital for millions.

And win.


Tort reform is certainly one piece of the puzzle, but OBs are doing things that they KNOW to be harmful because of this AND other reasons, after all many OBs still use Cytotec despite many stopping BECAUSE of being SUED. Funny, the midwives in the same hospital do all the things I mentioned and DON'T get sued NEARLY as often (on a percentage basis) as the OBs! They have MUCH better outcomes in the same demographic (ie comparing low-risk women to low-risk women)! Seems to me the OBs are doing something SERIOUSLY wrong and the women and babies are paying for it. I've shown you a small smattering of the research and reason WHY the things they do are WORSE for mom and baby.

After all, who puts out the Standard of Care anyways?! In the case of OBs it's the ACOG, which means that other OBs do it! If they changed the standard of care to an APPROPRIATE standard of care that would ACTUALLY work then you'd see a huge change in outcomes. The research supports that. The REAL reason why OB in specific is such a problem is that most OBs don't KNOW the alternatives. I've talked to midwives who's supervising OBs have only seen a handful of NORMAL, drug-free deliveries in DECADES of work! They don't know WHAT to do with a woman who is pacing, groaning, won't lie down, and won't take the epidural, to the point that they start bullying, talking to the woman's husband (as if we are children who need to be put in place by our husbands) to convince them to take the medicine so they can lie down and be quiet, and threatening laboring women (which is a GREAT way to cause labor to REVERSE itself and make it take longer).

BTW, you are talking to someone who was almost KILLED because of the "Standard of care" and if I had been LISTENED to rather than treated like cattle it would have NEVER have happened. I spent the first week of my daughter's life laying in a hospital bed unable to get up and move around and unable to breath, then an additional week in my home ALONE with my baby during the day while still on oxygen, and I had a normal vaginal delivery.

If OBs REALLY wanted to change their litigation rate they'd start EDUCATING women first! They'd STOP turning down every woman for care that acknowledges that she wants to do something different than lie on that bed and be drugged up (yes, ti does happen, in fact one office here will kick you out if you take a natural birth class). They'd LEARN how to do the things that make delivery easier and smoother for the woman. They HAVE been changing in SOME areas over the past 2 decades so it IS possible, they just aren't going far enough. After all, our new women and children's center just got birthing tubs (shown to help the pain of labor) but we aren't allowed to use them for the actual delivery. They finally got squat bars, but NONE of the OBs know how to use them, so unless you have a midwife (we have three for our rather decent sized population of 300,000+) you won't even know they exist (BTW, the midwives admit that squat bars are VERY easy to see the baby coming out the OBs just refuse to learn anything different and tell women that they can't see with it, they are LYING to women).

I don't know, maybe I should have sued for the standard of care not being appropriate or malleable. Maybe the women in our red tent group should ALL do that since MOST of them that have trauma from their delivery is due to the OBs NOT adjusting their care to meet the individual needs. Maybe when women start suing because they got one of the millions of unnecessary and dangerous c-section that occur in this country, maybe THEN they'll be forced to change the standard of care. Because CURRENTLY the standard of care is set up to be HIGHLY dangerous. And if you don't think that a rate of 3 times MORE deaths with c-section and the fact that c-sections are a MAJOR operation done in 30% of all deliveries in the hospital are the equivalent to maiming and killing women then you (not you specifically but the you that means anyone) are delusional and VERY uncaring for those women who have dealt with that. Aside from c-sections there are MANY other ways that women come out of a normal delivery maimed. We had a story a few months ago about a woman who went in to have her baby, and came out of the hospital with an amputated leg, thanks to the standard of care she received!
jettibo
I'll stop talking about OB care in this thread. I'd be happy to talk in another thread. This one is already so interesting without the diatribe from me.
toreyj01
QUOTE (jettibo @ Sep 9 2008, 09:27 AM) *
I'll stop talking about OB care in this thread. I'd be happy to talk in another thread. This one is already so interesting without the diatribe from me.


Apart from the butchering comments I think your posts have been relevant and well written.

And you are right in one respect, change the standard of care and you will free up a lot of the OBs to do more progressive approaches to childbirth. But bear in mind, OB/GYN is not a field populated with folks trying to make a buck, it is low paying, highly demanding, and highly litigious. If they are doing this, they already ARE committed.

And the reason a lot of midwives do not get sued is simple, the people that use them are not the people that usually sue OB's, they tend to be better educated and informed, and tend to have better prenatal care.

So its not apples to apples, see?

Any trend or philosophy midwives follow is usually pretty easy to implement as well, whereas an OB is bound to apply techniques that have only been validated by rigorous evidence based and peer reviewed research. Is it truly an advance or merely placebo effect? OBs have to have objective facts and studies to back changes of standards.

As I said, I am not in OB, but a lot of what I know is applicable. Educated patients like you are the least of the problem, I am afraid. smile.gif
toreyj01
And here is what I am talking about: Your contention is that C Sections carry a higher morbidity and mortality rate. How about a study of over 50,000 women that examined just that?

QUOTE
Results: The planned cesarean group comprised 46 766 women v. 2 292 420 in the planned vaginal delivery group; overall rates of severe morbidity for the entire 14-year period were 27.3 and 9.0, respectively, per 1000 deliveries. The planned cesarean group had increased postpartum risks of cardiac arrest (adjusted odds ratio [OR] 5.1, 95% confidence interval [CI] 4.1–6.3), wound hematoma (OR 5.1, 95% CI 4.6–5.5), hysterectomy (OR 3.2, 95% CI 2.2–4.8), major puerperal infection (OR 3.0, 95% CI 2.7–3.4), anesthetic complications (OR 2.3, 95% CI 2.0–2.6), venous thromboembolism (OR 2.2, 95% CI 1.5–3.2) and hemorrhage requiring hysterectomy (OR 2.1, 95% CI 1.2–3.8), and stayed in hospital longer (adjusted mean difference 1.47 d, 95% CI 1.46–1.49 d) than those in the planned vaginal delivery group, but a lower risk of hemorrhage requiring blood transfusion (OR 0.4, 95% CI 0.2–0.8). Absolute risk increases in severe maternal morbidity rates were low (e.g., for postpartum cardiac arrest, the increase with planned cesarean delivery was 1.6 per 1000 deliveries, 95% CI 1.2–2.1). The difference in the rate of in-hospital maternal death between the 2 groups was nonsignificant (p = 0.87).


http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/176/4/455

Here is a study of women who had elective C Sections before they went into labor:

QUOTE
RESULTS: A total of 5,779 pregnancies satisfied inclusion and exclusion criteria, 879 of which were cesarean deliveries without labor. There were no maternal deaths. There was no difference in wound infection, puerperal febrile morbidity, blood transfusion or intraoperative trauma. After controlling for potential confounders, women undergoing cesarean delivery without labor were less likely to have complications of early postpartum hemorrhage (relative risk 0.61, 95% confidence interval 0.42-0.88, number needed to treat 32) and composite maternal morbidity (relative risk 0.71, 95% confidence interval 0.52-0.95, number needed to treat 34) compared with women undergoing induction of labor. Subgroup analyses of maternal outcomes after induction of labor in women by method of delivery were also performed and demonstrated additional risks of traumatic morbidity after induction of labor. The highest morbidity was found in the assisted vaginal delivery and cesarean delivery in labor groups. CONCLUSION: Early postpartum hemorrhage and composite maternal morbidity were decreased in cesarean delivery without labor compared with induction of labor. Hemorrhagic and traumatic morbidities with labor induction are increased after assisted vaginal delivery and cesarean delivery in labor compared with cesarean delivery without labor.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1688029...ogdbfrom=pubmed

Respectfully,
jettibo
QUOTE (toreyj01 @ Sep 9 2008, 12:55 PM) *
Apart from the butchering comments I think your posts have been relevant and well written.

And you are right in one respect, change the standard of care and you will free up a lot of the OBs to do more progressive approaches to childbirth. But bear in mind, OB/GYN is not a field populated with folks trying to make a buck, it is low paying, highly demanding, and highly litigious. If they are doing this, they already ARE committed.

And the reason a lot of midwives do not get sued is simple, the people that use them are not the people that usually sue OB's, they tend to be better educated and informed, and tend to have better prenatal care.

So its not apples to apples, see?

Any trend or philosophy midwives follow is usually pretty easy to implement as well, whereas an OB is bound to apply techniques that have only been validated by rigorous evidence based and peer reviewed research. Is it truly an advance or merely placebo effect? OBs have to have objective facts and studies to back changes of standards.

As I said, I am not in OB, but a lot of what I know is applicable. Educated patients like you are the least of the problem, I am afraid. smile.gif


But that's the thing. OBs should be educating the women, but they don't. With my first they told me the tests I would receive (and I had to ask what they were for and what they meant), they tell you what NOT to eat (but don't explain that you should have 40+ grams of protein a day or drink more than your usual 8 glasses of water per day or any other nutritional information that may be helpful), and that's about it. They give you some pamphlets (most of which are trying to sell you on something) and *maybe* if you're lucky they may give you a book that is not very helpful and tell you when you can get your epidural and when you'll have an episiotimy.

Then there's that whole pesky thing about "informed consent", it doesn't exist very well in OB work. Many times they performed tests without telling why and I had to ask about it or research it on my own. Then when in the hospital I discovered that the OB had medications put into my IV that I KNEW knocked me out and in one case caused me to convulse in my sleep, but did not inform me of this (She should have known since she gave it to me for morning sickness and I had to tell her I couldn't take it, yet she gave it to me in labor because of standard procedure). Most women don't know WHAT the possible side effects of epidurals are only to learn later that that headache that wouldn't go away for weeks was due to the epidural or that they couldn't move for days afterwords, or that they couldn't breath during labor because it numbed the wrong half of their body, or that the baby's lethargy was due to medication, that their breastfeeding problems stemmed from the epidural, etc.

OB care is notorious about NOT using researched based evidence, that's the biggest problem. In this respect they are VERY different from the rest of the medical care you receive. They use MANY drugs that the company themselves tell them NOT to do because of the danger. In this country they go against the research that has been proven by countries that do better than we do in this area (like the British Medical Journal). My point is that regardless of WHY they are doing it OBs in this country are doing everything that you should NOT do to a laboring woman. I've even had friends who were yelled at and lectured by OBs in the middle of contractions. Many birth advocates have pointed out that the real research in American OB work is done on a daily basis on the average pregnant/laboring women, since after all they do things that have no real research behind it.

You are right, though, the women who choose midwives are better educated on their pregnancy than those who don't, it's WHY we choose the midwives in the first place. We're too damned SCARED to go to an OB. Not to mention the midwives spend time making sure you're *gasp* HEALTHY!! OBs tell women all the time "eat what you want the baby will get what it needs" midwives tell you "yeah, that's true but then YOU are going to be sick and your pregnancy won't go the way it should" (ie your BEGGING for induction and cesareans if you don't follow these nutritional guidelines).

On the butchering, I don't know what else to call someone who cuts you open and pulls out your internal organs unnecessarily, as an estimated 60% of cesareans are considered unnecessary. Or who cuts your vagina open unnecessarily (as a HUGE portion of episiotomies are done unnecessarily). Or who sticks a needle into your spine (as >90% of laboring women have done). So if you have a better word for it let me know.

Part of the problem is that our newest generation of OBs have been taught by last generations OBs who believe that the women are better off if they just lay down, shut up, and let the OB do what they think needs to be done.
MikeK
QUOTE (jettibo @ Sep 8 2008, 01:21 PM) *
[...]

1) The WORST position to labor and push in is on your back, but the OB can't "see well enough", even though my midwife can see just fine if you are on your hands and knees. Laboring on your back prevents your pelvis from opening fully and is working against gravity causing the woman to become exhausted from extended periods of pushing and increasing the chance of c-section.

[...]



I don't recall exactly where I read this but the practice of the Apache tribe (as observed in the Southwest in the mid-1800s) was for the husband of a pregnant woman about to deliver to spread a blanket under a tree and suspend the woman by her wrists in a half-squatting position on the blanket, legs spread wide apart. The result was a rapid, minimally painful delivery.

It makes sense to me.
Easilyannoyed
QUOTE (2zz @ Sep 8 2008, 09:21 PM) *
I work at one of America's best companies and just got diagnosed with breast cancer a little over a month ago. My greatest fear is not of dying of cancer. Odds are I will beat it. I livei n fear, though, of losing my job (inadvertantly because of cancer???) and getting left to fend for myself in our non-iversal health care system until I can make it to Medicare in 12 years.


I'm in the same boat (BC survivor), but a little further down the road. Right now, I'm having some random pains that can't be explained from my last mamogram. Doctor recommends an MRI and I'm waiting to hear if my insurance will cover it. I have a feeling they won't. A year ago, they would have, but my employer has been cutting back on coverage and many things that would have been covered in full are now only covered partially or not at all.

I'll use my flexible spending account to pay for it, and hope that I won't have any other uncovered expenses for the rest of the year. My employer has been outsourcing jobs like crazy to India - it's hell having had a serious illness and wondering when and if you'll lose your insurance if you lose your job.

It just pisses me off when I hear repugs say they're all about the sanctity of life and knowing what they really mean is just the fetus.

You're screwed after you've left the womb!
jettibo
QUOTE (toreyj01 @ Sep 9 2008, 01:16 PM) *
And here is what I am talking about: Your contention is that C Sections carry a higher morbidity and mortality rate. How about a study of over 50,000 women that examined just that?



http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/176/4/455

Here is a study of women who had elective C Sections before they went into labor:



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1688029...ogdbfrom=pubmed

Respectfully,



C-sections in and off themselves are PART of morbidity rates seeing as how they are in and of themselves the definition of morbidity.

BTW, did you miss this part in your first link:

QUOTE
Interpretation: Although the absolute difference is small, the risks of severe maternal morbidity associated with planned cesarean delivery are higher than those associated with planned vaginal delivery. These risks should be considered by women contemplating an elective cesarean delivery and by their physicians.


Also, since when did, "well at least you didn't die", become the benchmark of good care and good outcome.

I've seen recent articles showing that repeat cesareans increase mortality and complication rates, further sections increase mortality even more. I'll get them from my midwife if I have time today. And since the increase of cesareans are blamed partially on repeat sections it's a pretty significant finding.
jettibo
QUOTE (MikeK @ Sep 9 2008, 02:18 PM) *
I don't recall exactly where I read this but the practice of the Apache tribe (as observed in the Southwest in the mid-1800s) was for the husband of a pregnant woman about to deliver to spread a blanket under a tree and suspend the woman by her wrists in a half-squatting position on the blanket, legs spread wide apart. The result was a rapid, minimally painful delivery.

It makes sense to me.


Squatting is considered by most midwives as the optimal birth position. But no midwife in their right mind is going to force a laboring woman into ANY position she doesn't want to be in unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. I didn't like squatting when delivering my second (also didn't like water so call me a freak since all my friends RAVE about the water) so I just got in whatever position I wanted and the midwife caught him, he still shot out like a rocket and in his bag of waters thanks to all the protein my midwife insisted I eat! biggrin.gif

Oh, and my home birth cost $2000, my hospital birth cost over $9000! My home birth left me with NO complications, my hospital birth put me back in the hospital for a week and cost my insurance an additional >$20,000.
toreyj01
QUOTE (jettibo @ Sep 9 2008, 02:53 PM) *
C-sections in and off themselves are PART of morbidity rates seeing as how they are in and of themselves the definition of morbidity.

BTW, did you miss this part in your first link:

Also, since when did, "well at least you didn't die", become the benchmark of good care and good outcome.

I've seen recent articles showing that repeat cesareans increase mortality and complication rates, further sections increase mortality even more. I'll get them from my midwife if I have time today. And since the increase of cesareans are blamed partially on repeat sections it's a pretty significant finding.


An elective C Section does not qualify as morbidity, this is a scheduled C Section before labor occurs.

Those children and their mothers do better than vaginal deliveries morbidity wise, with no statistically significant increase in mortality.

And you were the one that stated that the mortality rate was significantly higher in the C Section group, not me. I just posted facts and links, which you did not do. Remember this pearl?

QUOTE
And if you don't think that a rate of 3 times MORE deaths with c-section and the fact that c-sections are a MAJOR operation done in 30% of all deliveries in the hospital are the equivalent to maiming and killing women then you (not you specifically but the you that means anyone) are delusional and VERY uncaring for those women who have dealt with that.


And a midwife would logically advocate for natural childbirth, since that is what she does. And they will obviously think its better or they wouldn't do it. But that doesn't make it evidence based medicine.

Respectfully,


jettibo
QUOTE (toreyj01 @ Sep 9 2008, 03:27 PM) *
An elective C Section does not qualify as morbidity, this is a scheduled C Section before labor occurs.

Those children and their mothers do better than vaginal deliveries morbidity wise, with no statistically significant increase in mortality.

And you were the one that stated that the mortality rate was significantly higher in the C Section group, not me. I just posted facts and links, which you did not do. Remember this pearl?



And a midwife would logically advocate for natural childbirth, since that is what she does. And they will obviously think its better or they wouldn't do it. But that doesn't make it evidence based medicine.

Respectfully,


Did you actually READ the study you posted before???

QUOTE
The planned cesarean group had increased postpartum risks of cardiac arrest (adjusted odds ratio [OR] 5.1, 95% confidence interval [CI] 4.1–6.3), wound hematoma (OR 5.1, 95% CI 4.6–5.5), hysterectomy (OR 3.2, 95% CI 2.2–4.8), major puerperal infection (OR 3.0, 95% CI 2.7–3.4), anesthetic complications (OR 2.3, 95% CI 2.0–2.6), venous thromboembolism (OR 2.2, 95% CI 1.5–3.2) and hemorrhage requiring hysterectomy (OR 2.1, 95% CI 1.2–3.8), and stayed in hospital longer (adjusted mean difference 1.47 d, 95% CI 1.46–1.49 d) than those in the planned vaginal delivery group, but a lower risk of hemorrhage requiring blood transfusion (OR 0.4, 95% CI 0.2–0.8).


A midwife advocates natural birth because it is safer for the mother and baby or else they wouldn't do it. I stated that I would get back to you with the research that shows repeat c-sections increasing mortality, I have 3 children under 3 in the house at this moment and their nap just ended.
jettibo
Oh, and I DID provide a link in a previous post but since it was ignored I'll put it here along with a snippet from the link.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/dh/4022

QUOTE
Cesareans Significantly Increase Mothers' Mortality Risk
By Crystal Phend, Staff Writer, MedPage Today

PARIS, Aug. 31 -- Women who opt for an elective cesarean have a threefold higher risk of mortality than those who choose vaginal delivery, according to investigators here.
Action Points

* Explain to interested patients that this study found than an elective cesarean increases the mother's risk of postpartum death compared with vaginal delivery.

Women who died during or within 42 days of giving birth were significantly more likely to have had a cesarean than women who survived childbirth (41.5% versus 14.9%), reported Catherine Deneux-Tharaux, M.D., M.P.H., of Hopital Teno, and colleagues, in the September issue of Obstetrics & Gynecology.

Both cesarean deliveries initiated before onset of labor and those initiated during labor significantly increased risk of maternal death. Intrapartum cesarean was associated with a small, statistically insignificant increase in risk over prepartum cesarean (adjusted odds ratio 1.39, 95% CI 0.62 to 3.15).


There's more at the link.
toreyj01
QUOTE (jettibo @ Sep 9 2008, 03:47 PM) *
Oh, and I DID provide a link in a previous post but since it was ignored I'll put it here along with a snippet from the link.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/dh/4022



There's more at the link.


Thanks for this it was interesting. Some numbers fudging with 3/4 of the mortalities being taken out, and only 65 deaths looked at in a four year period for an entire country, but the numbers seem compelling.
jettibo
QUOTE (toreyj01 @ Sep 9 2008, 04:10 PM) *
Thanks for this it was interesting. Some numbers fudging with 3/4 of the mortalities being taken out, and only 65 deaths looked at in a four year period for an entire country, but the numbers seem compelling.


Deaths need to be taken out if they do not compare directly to one another (eg if the mother was high risk, comparing to low risk in not adequate).
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