If GM had just not been STUPID a few years back and kept developing electric cars naturally, nobody would have to be subsidizing anything, and they'd be rolling in cash right now.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/98056/w...e_electric_car/

No fucking VISION for the future. This is the real problem with US car makers. They are the real welfare queens, begging for more government scratch, while going back to the same bad habits that got them in trouble in the first place.

They need to get off their ass and begin taking the initiative ON THEIR OWN.

Uh, the real reason no one is making electric cars is because NO ONE IS BUYING THEM.

Hybrids are in the same boat. Why would I spend $4.000 more on a hybrid saturn Vue than one with a regular 4 cylinder. The mileage will not calculate out to my advantage for 5 to 7 years, not to mention if something goes wrong with the hybrid portion of the vehicle it will also cost dearly.

Bullshit. When GM ripped it's old electric cars out of the hands of owners who liked them so much they actually demonstrated and blockaded facilities trying to keep them, that car also had a sales waiting list of over 28,000 of people WANTING to buy them. And that was with basically ZERO marketing support promoting the vehicle.

The Japanese don't have any trouble selling them, and one of Ford's best models is the Escape Hybrid, which I will personally testify is a joy to drive.

And the hybrid portion of the vehicle has a longer standard warranty (10 years) than the whole of any regular car.

If no one is buying hybrids, why is there a long waiting list to pay full retail and more for a Toyota Prius? I think GM is going to come out of this smelling like a rose. Electric cars, the infrastructure, and the solar and wind power to charge them up all have to go in together. We can't have the chicken waiting for the egg. GM can make it start to happen.

By the way 67; my first car was a 1967 Camaro SS396. Red with a TH400 and the white nose stripe. Four wheel manual drum brakes and a 2.73 open 12 bolt rear with mono-leafs.

I didn't say no one was buying hybrids. My point with the hybrids are the price difference between it and its equal without hybrid assist. If you drive it long enough to burn the warranty out (as 5by5 pointed out) then you will get your moneys worth. If you trade it in in a couple of years like a lot of people do then you are not calculating out savings.

And I bet you wish you still had that car huh!!!

Depends on how you calculate savings.

Am I saving children from having as extreme asthma attacks by not putting as much crap into the air? Yup.

Am I saving the country by using less Middle Eastern oil? Yup.

Am I saving future generation's ability to live on the planet at all? Yup.

There's more to savings than merely saving money. There are other things of value worth saving.

Moreover, my hybrid is so fun to drive, the only way I'd ever give it up is if it was MANY years down the road, on it's last legs, and there was a PURE electric vehicle to buy as an alternative.

At the time I bought my hybrid, I would have happily chosen a pure EV automobile instead, and the reason why I chose the one I did, was because I had a big cross-country move to make so it had to haul stuff, and I also wanted to "Buy American" and support forward-thinking production when U.S. car companies DO engage in it, because I believe in that, and I put my money where my mouth is.

Good point, well made 5by5. Thx.



Hey, GM! The Aptera gets 300 mpg with and infinite range unlike the EV1. It has a small efficient turbine that recharges the batteries as you drive. All you need is tiny factory in Carlsbad, California to develope and make one. It will be mass-produced next year.

Cool looking too. I am soooooooo tired of seeing the same old box-'o-bricks cars out on the road. There are all these really cool concept car designs at the car shows every year that totally blow my mind. Why the fuck don't they start mass producing a few of them?

I have very little sympathy for Detroit. They have had years and years and lots of our money to bail them out. The evolution of an automobile line in America almost always heads towards larger, heavier, and more powerful; therefore more wasteful. Unfortunately, the Japanese have inherited this tendency. Look the original Honda Civic, for example.

one graveyard for GM's EV 1

I kno, thx. The Aptera is actually safe unlike some other cars because it has a graphite cage around the driver and other improvements. For a small refundable down payment of $500, I think, you can order one now and have it delivered next year. I think it's actually pretty fast, too.

You would have been better off to had hired a moving company and bought the smaller car (prius) IMO.

Getting back to the GM electric car (EV1). Here is why they did what they did.

Over 100 people offered to purchase the electric cars and waive such liability as they were able under American consumer product laws. GM consistently refused offers to purchase or re-lease any EV1s, stating that they would be subject to ongoing product liability from both the purchasers and any future owners, and that their internal customer support policies would require them to provide service and replacement parts for the EV1s for at least ten years.[24] GM's suppliers stopped making replacement parts because of low demand, making it impossible to repair the vehicles.[25] Of particular concern to the company was the likelihood that each leased car's battery packs would require replacement at 25-35,000 mile intervals, and that the very low volumes involved would necessitate the corporation's subsidy of spare parts to private owners, perhaps on an indefinite basis.

So they did what they did under a logical business decision, I would like to think GM would have loved to see this product do good, hell they spent 500 million dollars in R and D.

Yeah, but the EV1 was actually a victim of poor regulation. The California Air Resources Board (CARB) totally punked out and changed their requirement for manufacturers to produce 20% of their fleets with 0 pollution to "optional" due to lobbying pressure from... guess who? GM and others. At that point GM canned the project with the replacement parts argument that you mentioned and went back to their fuming gas-bag SUVs and ignored electric even though they knew that most cars were only driven 40 miles/day to and from work. Illogical, but that's the way they work. Good regulation is necessary to get change that has a civic component. We lost a decade when CARB punked out and the earth is now hotter as a result.

Detroit never learns.
Every ten to fifteen years we go through the same old crap.
First they come out with a good line of practical cars...
...then they make them bigger and bigger and bigger...
...until there is an oil crisis and/or war...
...everyone goes broke, begs for hand outs...
...and, come out with a line of good practical cars.

Can we please have cafe and emission standards to force these morons among us to keep it real and practical?

If they want to go fast, let them make something like the Acabion GTBO.....only cheap, like the Litestar (search these names)

I read that Ford has a diesel car that get's 68 mpg, but they only sell it in Europe. They said that America is so against diesel that it wouldn't sell here. Well, shit, nice research idiots. Why not try selling it and see what happens. Typical corp. BS.

I take it you've never seen "Who Killed the Electric Car?" You should rent it. It is eye opening. I showed it to my father and another teacher friend of mine and they immediately started playing it for their classes and giving copies out to their friends. There was a huge waiting list for those cars.

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&c...Azp0muq4Cm-LTGw
SAN CARLOS, Calif., Sep 09, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Tesla Motors Inc. has selected BorgWarner Inc. for the production of a single-speed gearbox for the Tesla Roadster and is initiating a ramped-up production rate. So far, 27 customers have taken delivery of Roadsters.
Tesla engineers developed the specifications for the new gearbox and provided them to BorgWarner. The new gearbox is an integral part of an enhanced powertrain with significant performance and efficiency improvements. The new powertrain delivers about 30% higher motor torque on a single gear ratio, and it achieves a 10% higher EPA combined range.
And the base value for the 2009 model Tesla has been upped to $109,000, so price isn't a problem. Start producing them and there is a market. Start selling and it then becomes possible to bring the price down or develop the technology to a degree which allows for a cheaper model to be developed without having to attach the R&D cost to it that the first generation comes with. Like TV's and DVD players and so forth, the first one cost a whole lot more than they do when the market has been developed and demand is increased.

As for Hybrids, the 2008 HONDA CIVIC HYBRID is NOT what they say it is. I bought mine in January and I can't get past 33.2 mpg at best. Honda advertises 40-50 MPG which is BS! The average mileage in town is between 28.6 and 31.3 mpg, a far cry from the 40mpg. I called my dealer about the low mileage and they said, it hasn't broke in yet. LOL. I would like to be able to dump it, if possible.

I have owned 3 Hondas and this will be the last. Honda changed the auto industry because of the integrity and reliability of their product. But this is No More! I do not know if I can do anything about this lemon. Does anyone know who or what I can do ??? for False advertising???? Is there still a lemon law in existence, or has it gone the way of habeas corpus ?

I would love to have a hydrogen car! Hybrids are to keep the need for oil viable in America! The oil industry has the auto industry in its back pocket! Nothing new under the sun.

The electric is a great way to go, but there are still limitations! Hydrogen is the ONLY way to go. Pour in a glass of water and go! Anybody have info on when Hydrogen will become a reality and economically feasible to the general public?

G

Maybe be happy? My new 2.4L Camry 4-banger lease job gets 18 mpg in town even tho they mostly advertise it's highway mileage of 31 mpg. (wonder why ) By that you're getting 66% better mileage than I do for a car that is about the same size and weight.

The Prius I had for a while supposedly did a little better in town but it is a tad cramped for 6 ft. tall people and the Camry is much more comfortable for me. BTW, a Camry hybrid gets about the same mileage as yours does and it is like $10 grand more to get one.

Take a look at LeaseTrader.com where you can get a lot of gas-savers including some hybrids without any down payment at all like the $2000 I had to put out for mine from a dealer.

Me and my family have had a few Diesel Volkswagons. Best cars we ever had. We drove them to death.
The diesel Rabbits made in the 80's got 50mpg, and they went anywhere anytime.
The diesels that Volkswagon makes now are just too expensive and the milage isn't as good. Still, I would love to have one.

I went into the Smart car dealership to check out their little clown cars. They felt good to sit in, but the milage is less than a diesel Volkswagon. I asked the dealer why Mercedes didn't see fit to put their great three cylinder diesel in the Smart. The dealer took that as an opportunity to act like an asshole and act like diesels were crap. I mean for cryssakes, Mercedes invented the diesel...what the hell does he know. But, his stupid attitude does reflect the ignorance of American auto dealers and makers. Their only concept of a good car is something that makes a loud noise as it goes in a strait line.
And, that's why we don't have electric cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel

Strange. The first Smart Cars sold in North America were the diesels in Canada.

GM seems to go through sputs of genius to idiotcy ...

1929 overhead valve, 6 cylinder 235 cu. in., used for 50+ years with very few modifiations.

1957 Chevy marvelous looking and first american, full size car with fuel injection

Corvair was a bad [overpowered] copy of the VW. - to high of a center of gravity - almost got Ralph Nader killed by exposing it.

.....

I think the EV-1 was just to get government subsidies and to look like they were doing something for the environment.

Leased only for 5 years at the rate of $35,000 [7000 per year] !

Leased only, they never planned to follow through on it. They knew all the replacement parts requirement going into it !

Range was to short, especially for the Los Angeles - test market.

.....

One of the most dependable and efficient cars, that I have seen on the market is the Toyota Corolla .... best sub-compact milage [non-hybrid] sold in the US.
Engine the same as the small toyota pickup trucks, metal gears [cam to crank], not a belt as the Camry and others; that need to be frequently replaced. I know many people that have gotten 300,000+ miles - with no problems.

Fewer moving parts phylosophy ....
I'm a little leary of a [hybrid] gas/diesel engine, to run a generator, to run an electric motor [and charge batteries]; and generators [brakes] on every wheel to have to maintain. Could be some real headaches in the future.


Saw an article today about the 1993 [i think] Honda Civic becoming popular again - 60 miles to the gallon.

Popular Mechanics test drove the Aptera Super-MPG Electric Typ-1 e. And despite its stupid stupid stupid name it looks like it works great. Capable of achieving 300 miles per gallon in its hybrid version, the $30,000 Aptera is a winner according to them ...
http://gizmodo.com/336615/aptera-electric-...pular-mechanics


Based on our wheel layout and our weight,
the Aptera Typ-1 is registered as a motorcycle.
http://www.aptera.com/about.php

http://www.aptera.com/details.php









R. Buckminster Fuller's ... Dymaxion car 1933

The Dymaxion car was a concept car from 1933, designed by U.S. inventor and architect Buckminster Fuller. The word Dymaxion is a brand name that Fuller gave to several of his inventions, to emphasize that he considered them part of a more far-reaching project to improve humanity's living conditions. The car had a fuel efficiency of 30 miles per US gallon (7.8 L/100 km/36 mpg imp), which was unheard of in the United States at the time. It could transport eleven passengers. While Fuller claimed it could reach speeds of 120 miles per hour (190 km/h), the fastest documented speed was 90 miles per hour (140 km/h).
...
Isamu Noguchi was involved in the development of the Dymaxion car, creating plaster wind tunnel models that were a factor in determining its shape, and in 1934 took it on an extended road trip through Connecticut with Clare Booth Luce and Dorothy Hale.[1]

The car was a three wheeler, steered by a single rear wheel, and could do a U-turn in its own length. However, the rear-wheel steering made the car somewhat counterintuitive to operate, especially in crosswind situations. The body was teardrop-shaped, and naturally aerodynamically efficient. The car was twice as long as a conventional automobile, at 20 feet (6.1 m) long.[2] Drive power was provided by a rear-mounted Ford V8 engine, which produced 85 brake horsepower (63 kW/86 PS) through the front wheels. The front axle was also a Ford component, being the rear axle of a contemporary Ford roadster turned upside-down.
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_car

My point is just that if Detroit wants to be successful, it's not just environmentally efficient vehicles that they need to produce. I want to see new LINES, new SHAPES on the road.

Stuff like this:

Those are all really cool. One of them looks the Bat-mobile. My problem with these new high tech vehicles is that they seem to be designed for 1-2 people only. Its great they aren't peronally contributing to global warming, but they will be contributing to congestion problems. For single or married couple without kids these would be great. If you have a family or need space for more than 2 people it will make consumers less likely to purchase them.

I love the fact that some models of the Smart Car has a back seat.

DOT has classified tricycles as motorcycles (there are actual 3-wheeled motorcycles commonly for sale) and that also means that you can drive the Aptera in the HOV lanes and save time in traffic. Then when Obama gives adequate rebate and tax incentives for buying extremely low-emissions vehicles like this the pricetag will be lower. The battery version of Aptera is only $25 K msrp and has a 80 mile range or so. Plenty for the So. Cal market.

Thanks for the Dymaxion car pics. They are cool.

-------------

If there were any toys of the Dymaxion made, they'd be worth something! Thanks for the pics and history!

As for me, I'll need two Smart Cars -- one for each foot...

Don't know if we'll see this one in the US, it's still in the working prototype stage. Comes with built-in robot assistant to keep you focused and happy; no word on what it does if its driver experiences road rage...

Nissan Pivo 2

A couple of friends works for this company, and for only $55,000 plus a BYO Scion XB, they'll electrify it for you!

AC Propulsion

What gets me is why electric motors and batteries drive up the cost so much. I know about R&D and the scarcity of high-techiness that pushes the envelope in the modern electric car, and know of course electric cars will be cheaper as they become more common; but wouldn't the sheer simplicity of electric cars vs. internal combustion offset the price even a little?

Thanks Uriel! I appreciate the info and your sharing! It's always nice to have company especially when you are being had. LOL

I'm sorry but all but one of those vehicles look good and none of them are practical to drive. The Steve Ercal car above would mean certain death if involved in any kind of serious accident. The only way vehicles of this breed will suceed is if they outperform the gas burner at all levels.

Here we go with the 70's all over again, a bunch of cars that won't pull a greasy string out of a sick cats ass, and ugly to boot. Where can I line up for one!

Bite your tounge!

you know what i mean 74 and above

Yeah. And I'm gonna take design advice from a fucking dipshitted redneck. Not in this lifetime.

The only ones with backward thinking are the people still cherishing those gas-guzzling heap 'o junks like camaros.

The car for gold chain and polyester leisure-suit wearing dorks who used to hang in 70's singles bars and harass the waitresses when they couldn't get any tail.

They only like welfare when it's corporatewelfare

The REAL welfare muthas are CEO's, most of whom are MEN, dag nab it.

They only like welfare when it's corporate welfare. NO WONDER Welfare reform was so important, BigBusiness gets the first cut of the tax revenues. then what's left trickles down to us the people...We subsidize them, and they cut workers benefits, close plants, send our jobs overseas, and The CEO's get million dollar parachutes...all on the US tax payer's dimes and nickels.

May they all become sterile and wither.

Globalization...that's what is killing our economy... and the fucktards in the US Congress are either too stupid to figure it out or married to the old way of doing things. The old farts are trying desparately to hold on to what they know to be true of markets but it ain't working...

New blood pleeeze...GenXer's stand up and lead the way, minus SP
The REAL welfare muthas are CEO's, most of whom are MEN, dag nab it.

Well 5by5 you drive whatever the fuck you want too drive, And i'll drive whatever the fuck I want too drive. I wasn't giving you advice by the way, everyone on this board knows you know it all.

And its not backward thinking to cherish an era. I do not drive my car everyday.

And I love the stereo type Are you mad because those guys in the leisure suits you speak of never once made a pass at you....hmmmm

.

same vintage as the R. B Fuller car, a 1933 Willys ...

Right ON CB!

The American people need to demand that US auto manufacturers change; yesterday I saw a 65 MPG, diesel, Ford Fiesta, that is made in England and sold in Europe. When there is a real committment to downsize the auto makers will follow suit.

The top ten electric vehicles you can buy now

Electric Vehicles Available Now


I like the Miles Sedan model. The price is too high but hopefully there will be enough competition in the marketplace and they are already testing batteries to improve performance and size. Also the Zap company has a solar panel you can buy to put on the car to assist with charging the battery.

Miles Electric

Hahah... My favorite part of "Who Killed the Electric Car?"... when Huel Howser was just going through junkyards on California's Gold and came across a bunch of new electric cars mysteriously being compacted. GM wouldn't let anyone buy them, only lease... and many people were trying to buy them. My first clue that they didn't want people to really buy them was how silly the designs were for these vehicles. Of course the repubs won't see the conspiracy.

I will be looking for this to be produced by Volkswagen: Gizmag


"Volkswagen has taken the wraps off a Golf BlueMotion concept car capable of a combined 74.3 mpg while emitting just 99 g/km of CO2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide . The concept is powered by a highly-efficient and refined 1.6-litre TDI common rail diesel engine developing 105 PS and 184 lbs ft of torque at 2,000 rpm. Despite the focus on economy the Golf BlueMotion concept can reach 62 mph from rest in a respectable 11.3 seconds before going on to a top speed of 117 mph."

I wish I could afford this one...


Benz Electric Car

More Electric Concepts

Not a full electric, but a cool hybrid:

http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/paris_au..._hybrid_concept

And Smart's got a full EV they're showing in Paris:

http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/paris_au..._electric_drive

The doors on the Mini Cooper are cool:

http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/paris_au...ossover_concept

The interior of the Citronen is just freakish:

http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/paris_au..._hypnos_concept

And the lines on the Mazda Kiyora are just WICKED. This one they need to make:

http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/paris_au..._hypnos_concept